The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[WelshBloke]

Ok, to the list.

 

[Victorian Gray]

It's hilarious isn't it?

I just don't get his derailment of this thread and the Louisiana govt teaches religion thread. Kinda came out of nowhere. <shrug>

On the other hand, it is rather amusing.

 

[Moonbeam]

Did I ever tell you that I know the sound of one hand clapping? But the Acme School of Buddha has begged me not to reveal the secret; they're worried about the loss of business.

Don't let it go to your head. It was predetermined that you would.

 

[shira]

Don't let it go to your head. It was predetermined that you would.

Fuck predetermination. (I choose door #4.)

 

[Moonbeam]

I contend that if you were alive 2000 years ago, you would have been writing gnostic gospels.

Good grief, that Thomas guy knew what he was talking about. But why do
you call such obvious facts mystical? You don't seek anything but to label. Let's put Moonbeam in a Gnostic box and pack him safely away.

From the Gospel of Thomas:

Quote:
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

All that means is that to seek will lead to suffering and suffering will bring about healing. To heal is to partake again of being. To partake of being is to enter a conscious state. To be fully conscious is to be at cause, to rule over the all.

(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

All this means is that to believe in God literally is to imagine his kingdom some other place than where it is, with your own being. This becomes apparent when you know yourself. You will know that the eye with which you see God is the same eye with which He sees you. To not know this is to be in the prison I have described to you as the prison of assumptions about who you are, assumptions that cause you to believe in a false self.

(11) Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"

This is the paradox of duality, the creation of opposites that cannot coexist. Life can never be death. When a mind is at one with the universe it is fully here, fully alive, and death can never enter in. Immortality is when time stops, thought stops and there is only being.

The only problem you have is that you have no idea what any of this means because you haven't experienced it and you don't want to either because you have been convinced at an unconscious level that you aren't worthy of it. If a worthless nobody like me can understand it, than so can you.

Everything is totally meaningless, remember, including how worthless you are.

 

[Moonbeam]

Fuck predetermination. (I choose door #4.)

My door was opened for me when I died in a room from which there was no escape. When I collapsed and died the floor gave way. One moment I was in prison and a second later I was the wind. What is the explanation that can create for you that experience?

 

[WelshBloke]

My door was opened for me when I died in a room from which there was no escape. When I collapsed and died the floor gave way. One moment I was in prison and a second later I was the wind. What is the explanation that can create for you that experience?

 

[Victorian Gray]

Where did you find a picture of my kitchen ceiling?!

 

[WelshBloke]

Where did you find a picture of my kitchen ceiling?!

Weird! Your kitchen was my lounge when I was a student.

 

[buckshot24]

I've wasted enough time arguing for the rock solid obvious. This is the last time I will cover this subject. The last straw was when an otherwise intelligent person basically argues that because he will choose one thing over the other he never had a choice. This is patently absurd and evidence of a person who is grasping at straws.

What does it take to make a decision not free? It takes something or someone forcing you to choose one over the other, that is it. Outside of this "forcing" there is nothing making one outcome happen over the other. Just because you WILL choose one over the other doesn't mean you made a non-free decision. If the knowledge of you making your choice doesn't force you to choose as you did then it doesn't hinder freedom of choice AT ALL.

 

[soulcougher73]

It's hilarious isn't it?

I cant believe you lasted this long WelshBloke. You win the internets for today

Guys a tool and broken record. If i read this page and went back 20 pages it would be the same thing coming out of him lol.

 

[soulcougher73]

I've wasted enough time arguing for the rock solid obvious. This is the last time I will cover this subject. The last straw was when an otherwise intelligent person basically argues that because he will choose one thing over the other he never had a choice. This is patently absurd and evidence of a person who is grasping at straws.

What does it take to make a decision not free? It takes something or someone forcing you to choose one over the other, that is it. Outside of this "forcing" there is nothing making one outcome happen over the other. Just because you WILL choose one over the other doesn't mean you made a non-free decision. If the knowledge of you making your choice doesn't force you to choose as you did then it doesn't hinder freedom of choice AT ALL.

Well if you'd like to explain how knowing the outcome beforehand can cause a choice to change the outcome..were all ears. But until then STFU.

 

[JD50]

I've wasted enough time arguing for the rock solid obvious. This is the last time I will cover this subject. The last straw was when an otherwise intelligent person basically argues that because he will choose one thing over the other he never had a choice. This is patently absurd and evidence of a person who is grasping at straws.

What does it take to make a decision not free? It takes something or someone forcing you to choose one over the other, that is it. Outside of this "forcing" there is nothing making one outcome happen over the other. Just because you WILL choose one over the other doesn't mean you made a non-free decision. If the knowledge of you making your choice doesn't force you to choose as you did then it doesn't hinder freedom of choice AT ALL.

That is not what anyone has argued, I think at this point it's safe to assume that you're just too stupid to understand what people are saying to you. The issue is not that you will choose something, it's that your choice was known by an infallible being before you made it. In that case it's not a choice.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

This is the last time I will cover this subject. The last straw was when an otherwise intelligent person basically argues that because he will choose one thing over the other he never had a choice.

Not that he will, but that he MUST, because God's knowledge already exists and cannot be wrong.

What does it take to make a decision not free? It takes something or someone forcing you to choose one over the other, that is it.

That's precisely what God does when he decides your future for you. I can't choose to go to Princeton when God has already decided that I will go to Yale when he created the world.

Outside of this "forcing" there is nothing making one outcome happen over the other.

There AREN'T any "other" outcomes. There is only what God knows.

Just because you WILL choose one over the other doesn't mean you made a non-free decision.

Yes, it does, because you can't do anything but what God has already decided.

If the knowledge of you making your choice doesn't force you to choose as you did then it doesn't hinder freedom of choice AT ALL.

But it clearly does. You've just literally ignored everyone explaining it so you can preserve your delusional little bubble. It's frankly one of the most pathetic displays I've seen in a long time, and I've seen some shit in my days.

 

[Paratus]

I've wasted enough time arguing for the rock solid obvious. This is the last time I will cover this subject. The last straw was when an otherwise intelligent person basically argues that because he will choose one thing over the other he never had a choice. This is patently absurd and evidence of a person who is grasping at straws.

What does it take to make a decision not free? It takes something or someone forcing you to choose one over the other, that is it. Outside of this "forcing" there is nothing making one outcome happen over the other. Just because you WILL choose one over the other doesn't mean you made a non-free decision. If the knowledge of you making your choice doesn't force you to choose as you did then it doesn't hinder freedom of choice AT ALL.

Let's see. This is a pretty simple concept.

According to some God is all knowing, all powerful, and loving.

God created both the Universe and Man. God will send those who sin to everlasting torment. (Stop me if I get to something you don't thing is right).

Man has free will

These concepts are contradictory.

If Man uses his free will to sin and God is all knowing and all powerful and punishes sinners then God knowingly created the environment for the sin to occur, knowingly created the sinner who would choose to sin and therefore be tormented for.

This is not the act of a loving being.
Regardless of how you rearrange the these tenants one of them has to be wrong.

Either God isn't loving, sinners are not punished for sins, God doesn't know how to or have the power to create a universe without sin.

Which tenants of modern religion are wrong?

 

[WelshBloke]

I've wasted enough time arguing for the rock solid obvious. This is the last time I will cover this subject.

The last straw was when an otherwise intelligent person basically argues that because he will choose one thing over the other he never had a choice. This is patently absurd and evidence of a person who is grasping at straws.

Frankly you shouldn't have started arguing this at all, you're obviously not equipped to look at ideas that are different to the ones you've lodged into your head.
This reminds me of the "aeroplane on a treadmill" threads.

The last straw was when an otherwise intelligent person basically argues that because he will choose one thing over the other he never had a choice. This is patently absurd and evidence of a person who is grasping at straws.

You still haven't shown what the "other thing" is.

If I will do [XXX] where does this "other thing" come into it? There is no "other thing".

What does it take to make a decision not free? It takes something or someone forcing you to choose one over the other, that is it. Outside of this "forcing" there is nothing making one outcome happen over the other. Just because you WILL choose one over the other doesn't mean you made a non-free decision. If the knowledge of you making your choice doesn't force you to choose as you did then it doesn't hinder freedom of choice AT ALL.

Again, you've got one idea lodged in your head and its blinding you to the obvious.

All it takes for a decision not to be free is there not to be a decision to be made in the first place.

When was this imaginary "decision" of yours made?
What was the "decision" a decision between?
This isn't "choosing one over the other", there literally isn't an other.
If the "knowledge of you making your choice doesn't force you to choose as you did" then how come you can't choose anything else?

 

[shira]

My door was opened for me when I died in a room from which there was no escape. When I collapsed and died the floor gave way. One moment I was in prison and a second later I was the wind. What is the explanation that can create for you that experience?

I've been luckier than you. I've never been imprisoned, by either myself or others. So I've always been able to open my own doors.

And yes, I'm very much aware of your opinion that most people aren't sufficiently conscious to even be aware of their own unconsciousness.

 

[soulcougher73]

This is what Buckshot24 see's in this thread and declares himself victorious.

This message is hidden because Soulcougher73 is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because WelshBloke is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Victorian Gray is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Cerpin Taxt is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Shira is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because JD50 is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Paratus is on your ignore list.

 

[disappoint]

Starting to wonder how much _____ you have to do to think like buckshot.

You can fill in the blank with any one of the following or come up with your own: LSD, head injury, neurotoxin...

Oh I forgot one. Religion.

 

[shira]

This is what Buckshot24 see's in this thread and declares himself victorious.

This message is hidden because Soulcougher73 is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because WelshBloke is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Victorian Gray is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Cerpin Taxt is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Shira is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because JD50 is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Paratus is on your ignore list.

When someone is on your ignore list, does the tool also hide quoted messages by ignored posters, or just the originals?

 

[soulcougher73]

When someone is on your ignore list, does the tool also hide quoted messages by ignored posters, or just the originals?

I believe just the originals

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I believe just the originals

Yes, ignored users comments will appear in quotations of that user by another user. Also, I'm pretty sure there's some hypertext in each ignored post which will display the content anyway on an ad hoc basis. I don't really remember. Once upon a time I put either cybrsage or PhinneasJWhoopee on ignore. Then I quickly realized ignore lists were for the weak.

 

[Victorian Gray]

I've wasted enough time arguing for the rock solid obvious. This is the last time I will cover this subject. The last straw was when an otherwise intelligent person basically argues that because he will choose one thing over the other he never had a choice. This is patently absurd and evidence of a person who is grasping at straws.

What does it take to make a decision not free? It takes something or someone forcing you to choose one over the other, that is it. Outside of this "forcing" there is nothing making one outcome happen over the other. Just because you WILL choose one over the other doesn't mean you made a non-free decision. If the knowledge of you making your choice doesn't force you to choose as you did then it doesn't hinder freedom of choice AT ALL.

 

[fskimospy]

Let's see. This is a pretty simple concept.

According to some God is all knowing, all powerful, and loving.

God created both the Universe and Man. God will send those who sin to everlasting torment. (Stop me if I get to something you don't thing is right).

Man has free will

These concepts are contradictory.

If Man uses his free will to sin and God is all knowing and all powerful and punishes sinners then God knowingly created the environment for the sin to occur, knowingly created the sinner who would choose to sin and therefore be tormented for.

This is not the act of a loving being.
Regardless of how you rearrange the these tenants one of them has to be wrong.

Either God isn't loving, sinners are not punished for sins, God doesn't know how to or have the power to create a universe without sin.

Which tenants of modern religion are wrong?

This is encapsulated in one of my favorite quotes :

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

 

[Moonbeam]

I've been luckier than you. I've never been imprisoned, by either myself or others. So I've always been able to open my own doors.

And yes, I'm very much aware of your opinion that most people aren't sufficiently conscious to even be aware of their own unconsciousness.

My objective as I see it is to provide information to the curious or needy that a completely different way of experiencing the world exists either because something they may not be able to identify drives them to know or because they suffer from its lack. I do so because I have personal experience of its good quality and transformative nature. I am hampered by the fact that the experience can't be transmitted with words, only pointed to with them.

I answer your questions as best as I can, not with expectations. The fact that you are not a princess explains to me why you do not feel the discomfort of your unconscious. There are people who have seen what I have seen and far more for thousands of years and the stories from myth and religion are replete with the evidence for the conscious state I describe including the myriad of ways those who do not know experience contact with the suggestion it exists.

What you call luck is luck only from one perspective. I remember full well when I was as lucky as you and the measure of all things. But this Humpty Dumpty had the misfortune of one day sitting on a wall. All the kings horses and all the kings men couldn't do what Grace did, experience a state of unity that requires no shell. My luck in my opinion is that you could still fall but I can't. Been there and done that and won.

You are sure you do not need what I say but I tell you just in case. So many fall and have no hope. Somebody gave me a Strawberry, the greatest gift I ever received..