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The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

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buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
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I find it a little scary that you need a book to tell you that you shouldn't rape and murder anyone.
You're putting words into my mouth. I didn't rape before I became a Christian so I don't refrain from it now because "some book" tells me so. None of this does anything to show, objectively, why rape and murder is wrong in a purely materialistic universe.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,748
6,763
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It is pretty sad that the religious and the non religious seen to need to contest with each other which of them can create the worst human beings when history is replete with hideous examples of both. One would think in that case that an alternate explanation of human evil would be sought as the cause. I have offered an explanation as to why this is so over and over, but will do so again.

The source of human violence, one against another, lies is the unexamined assumptions we make, that are grafted violently onto the genetic nature our evolution has given us, a profound capacity to love each other and to cooperate as a group and our territorial fear of the other. Very young and thus preconditioned children display both a high percentage of empathy for others but a fear of different appearing others. Culture and education the nature of ones exposure while growing up can influence positively or negatively these separate tendencies. A bigoted insular culture that is exposed to constant warfare or other threat will develop a culture of fear, and a culture of largess will be much more loving and welcoming.

In a stressed culture group cohesion becomes a necessity of survival. Great demands are put on children to conform to a group think, to adhere to distinctions that demark one type of group from another. The methodology by which this cohesion is maintained is hate of others, and the threat that you will be hated too if you do not conform. Thus is born group pride and group self justification, the right of the self to affirm itself over the selves of others. This is the evil of ego, the certainty that only oneself and ones group are right and that right and might are one and the same. This is also the origin of self hate, the naming of what is right and its forceful application onto all the newborn in that society who are born whole and perfect and not yet brainwashed into that culture. That original self we are taught to despise so we can conform and take our place as worthy members.

It makes not the slightest difference of one belongs to a theistic or non-theistic culture. Once the certainty of ego is fixed anything can be justified. It is this ego of certainty that is the ultimate evil, it's ability to justify anything.

This is why a modest Christian is vastly superior to an egotistical Atheist and a modest Atheist vastly superior to an egotistical Christian. The origin of all evil is self hate and ego is its face.
 
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buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
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His book also tells him not to eat shellfish or work on the Sabbath, he has decided that he is better than God and doesn't have to obey those particular laws. Basically if God's law inconviences him in any way, it doesn't apply to hijm.
The bible doesn't tell me to not eat shellfish.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
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If there is no God and we are just evolved animals there is ultimately nothing wrong with rape and murder.
False.

Atheists can act morally, they can't ultimately justify acting morally within a purely naturalistic worldview.
Sure I can. You just think morals are something that they are not. Really, I dare you to delve into this with me, but I'll warn you it won't be pretty for you.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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None of this does anything to show, objectively, why rape and murder is wrong in a purely materialistic universe.
No Christian can "show, objectively, why rape and murder is wrong," nor can any of them show that this is not a "purely materialistic universe," so fuck right the fuck off with your silly claims.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
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No True Scotsman.
A Scotsman is who he is by his lineage not by his actions so you've failed.
You think being a Christian is like being a racist?
No, but you'd call me a racist based upon me being a member of the clan no matter what I said.
No, its true.
Sure I can. You just think morals are something that they are not. Really, I dare you to delve into this with me, but I'll warn you it won't be pretty for you.
I've missed your arrogance.:D

I've been through this countless times with countless atheists. They usually go along the lines of rape and murder not being conducive to a thriving society which is more about optimizations instead of morality. Or they say they wouldn't want to be raped and murdered so it is wrong to do it to others which completely falls apart.
 

MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
2,495
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The bible doesn't tell me to not eat shellfish.

Leviticus 10:10-12

"But whatever is in the seas and in the rivers that does not have fins and scales among all the teeming life of the water, and among all the living creatures that are in the water, they are detestable things to you, and they shall be abhorrent to you; you may not eat of their flesh, and their carcasses you shall detest. Whatever in the water does not have fins and scales is abhorrent to you."


I don't think you've even read the Bible.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,120
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Is it bad when a chimp rapes another chimp?
Bad in what way?

Do you mean "do I feel empathy for a chimp that gets raped?"
If so, yes I do to a certain extent. I'm aware that I'm anthropomorphosising (is that even a word?) but that's how empathy works.
If you mean "should I press for justice for raped chimps?", then obviously no. That would be ludicrous.
 

MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
2,495
571
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A Scotsman is who he is by his lineage not by his actions so you've failed.

Ah, playing stupid. When you have no argument, resort to feigned stupidity.

I've been through this countless times with countless atheists. They usually go along the lines of rape and murder not being conducive to a thriving society which is more about optimizations instead of morality. Or they say they wouldn't want to be raped and murdered so it is wrong to do it to others which completely falls apart.

I've been through this before. Why don't you read the thread?

Harm is bad. How is it bad? It negatively affects an individual. Ergo, doing harm is morally wrong.

What is rape? It's harming someone by means of forced sex. Since rape is harmful, rape is morally wrong.

You, on the other hand, are perfectly fine with rape. I gave an example of war rape being commanded by the Bible, which you ignored. If you think rape is a bad thing, you would have condemned the Bible for encouraging it.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
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No Christian can "show, objectively, why rape and murder is wrong," nor can any of them show that this is not a "purely materialistic universe,".
Yes I can. I may not be able to prove it to the obstinate but that isn't what this is all about. If you're going to cuss me out I'll just block you.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
Leviticus 10:10-12

"But whatever is in the seas and in the rivers that does not have fins and scales among all the teeming life of the water, and among all the living creatures that are in the water, they are detestable things to you, and they shall be abhorrent to you; you may not eat of their flesh, and their carcasses you shall detest. Whatever in the water does not have fins and scales is abhorrent to you."


I don't think you've even read the Bible.
Context. God is talking to a specific people.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,120
11,294
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Yes I can. I may not be able to prove it to the obstinate but that isn't what this is all about. If you're going to cuss me out I'll just block you.
Thought experiment for you.

If your God appeared to you and commanded you to rape or murder someone would that rape or murder be morally wrong given that your morality depends on your God's commands?
 

MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
2,495
571
136
Context. God is talking to a specific people.

And guess what the Bible is?

A book that outlines how you're supposed to live. It does this through direct commandments, as well as through stories. This isn't hard to comprehend.

Unless of course you're going to pull the "New Testament, new covenant!" card, in which case, Jeremiah 31:31-34
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
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Ah, playing stupid. When you have no argument, resort to feigned stupidity.
My "argument" is that this doesn't apply for the reason I gave.
Harm is bad. How is it bad? It negatively affects an individual. Ergo, doing harm is morally wrong.
Is it wrong to negatively affect a serial rapist by putting him in prison? If not then negatively affecting individuals isn't a valid criteria.
What is rape? It's harming someone by means of forced sex. Since rape is harmful, rape is morally wrong.
Is it wrong for a chimp to rape another chimp?
You, on the other hand, are perfectly fine with rape.
Lying and slander isn't going to help you. If this is how you would like to discuss things then we're done.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
And guess what the Bible is?

A book that outlines how you're supposed to live. It does this through direct commandments, as well as through stories. This isn't hard to comprehend.
No it isn't. You have no idea do you? This is why I don't do bible studies with atheists. They either are willingly misunderstanding or can't understand. In either case, we're done with the bible studies.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
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Bad in what way?

Do you mean "do I feel empathy for a chimp that gets raped?"
If so, yes I do to a certain extent. I'm aware that I'm anthropomorphosising (is that even a word?) but that's how empathy works.
If you mean "should I press for justice for raped chimps?", then obviously no. That would be ludicrous.
Bad in the way you said rape was bad for humans.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
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A Scotsman is who he is by his lineage not by his actions so you've failed.
You do not appear to understand the fallacy.

No, but you'd call me a racist based upon me being a member of the clan no matter what I said.
What difference does that make if Christians are not like racists?

No, its true.
You're invited to defend that notion.

I've been through this countless times with countless atheists.
I bet I've been through this more times with more theists than you have with atheists.

Or they say they wouldn't want to be raped and murdered so it is wrong to do it to others which completely falls apart.
You reject the notion of "do unto others"?