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That's just a tough situation that is a very serious issue of concern. But the same fear rests in any organization that allows adults to have close contact to children.
I'm not up to date on organizational policies, but I would certainly hope that they have rules in place that state that children are not allowed to be alone with a single advisor at any time. Two adults must accompany as a form of self policing. I don't know if that is a policy and if it is, if it is practiced/enforced.
I did boyscouts (didn't bother with going eagle, too much time) and learned to make fires, navigate by compass, and other basic camping skills. Could have learned just as much elsewhere, easily, but the frequent camping trips were really good fun.
You only hear about the bad stories. Do you believe that California is full of only crazed, burnt-out hippies or the SE USA is a bunch of ignorant inbreds? Stories about OMG <insert issue here> only make the news because it can be used as muckraking headline.
You'll never hear a news story about a good Scoutmaster or BSA Council. It's just like a good IT department, it should be transparent most of the time...if it isn't then something went wrong.
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
6) Brainwashed to hate gay people and non-Christians.
And that's the reason my kids will never have anything to do with it, despite the fact that I spent years in Scouts. My Eagle Scout father, who has since sprouted a brain of his own, makes no bones about expressing his hatred for the organization. They lure you in with fun activities and subtly push their agenda on you. Besides, Scouting jamborees suck big fat donkey balls.BTW, the only "first aid" I learned in Scouts was to apply pressure to a wound. I'm now Red Cross CPR and First Aid certified, but no thanks to Scouts.
Family camping trips and community college or employer-sponsored first aid courses > Hitler Youth.
I really don't know where you people see this "Hitler Youth" connection. I have been involved with Scouting since about the 2nd grade (I'm 32 now) and I never saw any of this "brainwashing" about hating gays and/or atheists.
In order to be a scout you have to meet their criteria. I couldn't take their Christian only position and decided to part ways with them. Sure it meant giving up a full ride to College but I couldn't agree with some of their principles (the one above as well as their intolerance towards homosexuals). Since they are a private institution and I respect their right to do what they want with their membership, I left a few years ago. I was in it for a LONG time, too.
It's because you've been in too long/you're still in and can't adequately pull yourself away from the situation and see it for what it is.
Originally posted by: Feldenak
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
6) Brainwashed to hate gay people and non-Christians.
And that's the reason my kids will never have anything to do with it, despite the fact that I spent years in Scouts. My Eagle Scout father, who has since sprouted a brain of his own, makes no bones about expressing his hatred for the organization. They lure you in with fun activities and subtly push their agenda on you. Besides, Scouting jamborees suck big fat donkey balls.
Family camping trips and community college or employer-sponsored first aid courses > Hitler Youth.
I really don't know where you people see this "Hitler Youth" connection. I have been involved with Scouting since about the 2nd grade (I'm 32 now) and I never saw any of this "brainwashing" about hating gays and/or atheists.
Do you think the Hitler Youth let Jewish kids join ? They didn't have to teach them intolerance towards Jews, it was a clear lesson that Jews were not acceptable, just by excluding them from joining.
I'm not equating the Scouts with Hitler youth, that's way over the top. But there is a comparison to be drawn as to why excluding people based on religion teaches a very bad lesson.
What gets me is how people who support Scouting, want to pretend like this doesn't matter, or even worse, think it's great to discriminate against people for reasons other than their merits as an individual.
It's really up to people who are involved in Scouting to speak up if they don't like this, not pretend it isn't important.
I would be doing my child a disservice if I allowed my child to join an organization that discriminated against him. I told the boy scout leader that was 'recruiting' at his school as much and he said "well, it's not really a problem, as long as he recites the pledges, we don't get into religion other than that." To that, I replied that I would be a lousy parent if I told him to lie in order to participate and he said that he understood and apologized.
- Oct 28, 1999
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To further develop some of my thoughts on this...
My general consensus is that it's a lot like voting. I'm a moderate by heart. Fiscially conservative, socially liberal...for the most part. Because of this I will most likely never have a candidate that represents me 100%. I will get one that more leans my way than another, but never an ideal match. So I have to compromise a bit and take the good with the bad.
I'm really the same way with Scouting. I don't agree with everything they do or say, but overall I think they do more good than bad. Especially when you break it down to individual community settings that can distill out a lot of the crap that we are arguing about.
Overall, the religion thing *IS NOT* as big of a deal as a lot of people make it out to be. The most religion that ever entered any of our activities was a simple blessing/prayer before meals. Camps typically had Sunday morning services, but it was by no means required. Other than that it really was not a significant part of the program.
I just wish that both sides could make some sort of compromise, but both of them are pretty pigheadded about it.
On the BSA side they should just allow you to opt out of that line if that is your desire instead of making an issue of it. As I've said, they've handled this poorly and it has really hurt their image.
On the parent/kid side, I find a lot of self proclaimed athiests to be nothing more than attention whores who like to raise a stink. If your beliefs were that strong, simply being around people praying isn't going to break them down. Simply bow your head and let them do their thing before dinner.
I work for a Catholic employer. I haven't been to church in close to 10 years. I have no real intentions of ever joining an organized religion again in my life. But, I'm cool with them, and my employer is fine with my beliefs. I let them do their thing(prayers before meetings, no birth control coverage in insurance) and they let me do mine (they don't force me to mass or fire me because of my beliefs).
Both sides just need to realize that their beliefs won't magically be erroded by being in the presence of another type. Especially when something like religion really is a microscopic part of the program.
My general consensus is that it's a lot like voting. I'm a moderate by heart. Fiscially conservative, socially liberal...for the most part. Because of this I will most likely never have a candidate that represents me 100%. I will get one that more leans my way than another, but never an ideal match. So I have to compromise a bit and take the good with the bad.
I'm really the same way with Scouting. I don't agree with everything they do or say, but overall I think they do more good than bad. Especially when you break it down to individual community settings that can distill out a lot of the crap that we are arguing about.
Overall, the religion thing *IS NOT* as big of a deal as a lot of people make it out to be. The most religion that ever entered any of our activities was a simple blessing/prayer before meals. Camps typically had Sunday morning services, but it was by no means required. Other than that it really was not a significant part of the program.
I just wish that both sides could make some sort of compromise, but both of them are pretty pigheadded about it.
On the BSA side they should just allow you to opt out of that line if that is your desire instead of making an issue of it. As I've said, they've handled this poorly and it has really hurt their image.
On the parent/kid side, I find a lot of self proclaimed athiests to be nothing more than attention whores who like to raise a stink. If your beliefs were that strong, simply being around people praying isn't going to break them down. Simply bow your head and let them do their thing before dinner.
I work for a Catholic employer. I haven't been to church in close to 10 years. I have no real intentions of ever joining an organized religion again in my life. But, I'm cool with them, and my employer is fine with my beliefs. I let them do their thing(prayers before meetings, no birth control coverage in insurance) and they let me do mine (they don't force me to mass or fire me because of my beliefs).
Both sides just need to realize that their beliefs won't magically be erroded by being in the presence of another type. Especially when something like religion really is a microscopic part of the program.
I agree with most of what you said. I don't even think there's anything wrong with the Scouts advocating some religious point of view, if that's what they want to do., as long as they let people who don't agree with them, participate.
I mean to me, it isn't even Christian to exclude people. Most Christian organizations I know of welcome everyone.
I mean to me, it isn't even Christian to exclude people. Most Christian organizations I know of welcome everyone.
It's not a matter of beliefs being eroded for me. My children are being raised to be respectful of others' beliefs and when we are at other people's houses they are expected to sit quietly when others are praying. What I won't do is support an organization that holds as a core value discrimination against my family and friends and requires children to lie in order to participate. I don't doubt that the scouts are a good organization otherwise, but I will NOT support them in any manner.
One important thing to realize is that the quality of the experience is a direct reflection of the quality of the troop. I was part of troop 82 in Minneapolis. It was great for a couple of years at which point, everything started deteriorating (the whole church where it was based fell apart). I moved to Troop 1 in St. Paul which had 5x as many scouts, 3x as many adult volunteers and it was a whole new experience. I became an eagle in '99. If I had my life to do over, I would be a scout again. When my son gets older (due in Feb!) I will volunteer in his pack/troop so that he can have the same experience.
- Oct 9, 1999
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Because your troop was probably from a time and place more like my (Cub Scout) troop. I was only in a year, maybe it was two, before our entire troop disolved -- due to apathy, I guess. But I seriously can't remember even the tiniest hint of any BS religious indoctrination at all. I grew up in, I guess, a far more naive time and place, where no one even thought to question anyone else's patriotism or religious view. Hell, we were all Americans, and that was that was that.
For some reason, I seem to recall that we were considered the "problem" troop; though, for the life of me I can't recall why. I do know that we never, ever went on one goddamned field trip. My Dad did volunteer to "supervise" the building of our (full size) soapbox derby entry. It was, far and away, the most beautiful entry, really gorgeous. It also came in DEAD LAST in the races. My Dad was an inveterate back yard engineer, and he never threw away any mechanical bit that might have a useful future purpose. So, our entry was stylin' but most likely running on wheel bearings that had first seen the light of day during the McKinley administration.
Although it has been over 20 years, I remember no religious discussion or agenda with our troop. It was 90% camping/canoeing/hicking/climbing/10% community service. Now granted the troop was based in a catholic grade school so every one of us was catholic and if we were near a town and it was sunday they tried to take us to church but that was it. Homosexuality was not an issue but then our scout masters and adult volunteers were all fathers of scouts. Then I was in a coed explorer post.
I understand that the BSA need to CYA regarding its adult volunteers and potential for pedophilia, but they should have taken a stand and dispute the any link between homosexuality and pedophilia. Respect is pivotal to scouting and any discrimination is in conflict with the spirit of scouting.
Maybe the administration is truely homophobic bible beaters but that doesn't necessarily mean that individual troops act that way. Listen, more than half of us here in the US don't agree with the current national administration, doesn't mean that we are going to move to Canada.
At least for me, Scouting taught me respect, tolerance and responsibility.
I understand that the BSA need to CYA regarding its adult volunteers and potential for pedophilia, but they should have taken a stand and dispute the any link between homosexuality and pedophilia. Respect is pivotal to scouting and any discrimination is in conflict with the spirit of scouting.
Maybe the administration is truely homophobic bible beaters but that doesn't necessarily mean that individual troops act that way. Listen, more than half of us here in the US don't agree with the current national administration, doesn't mean that we are going to move to Canada.
At least for me, Scouting taught me respect, tolerance and responsibility.
Eagle Scout 2001, some of the best times in my life. Alaska, Wyoming, Boundary Waters, New Mexico, the little camps, bigger ones like Wilderness. Good times.
Maybe our Troop was different, but we didn't really have any religious affiliation besides meeting in a church basement. We were much more of a para-military organization. We focused on stealth maneuvers at night, traps, weapons proficiency, and survival skills. I mean look at me, I don't even like religious people. And I've lived with a gay guy for 3 years. When stupid people are in charge of scouting that is a shame.
I became an Eagle Scout in 1991. Also got my brotherhood in Order of the Arrow. I spent 8 years of my life in scouting and wouldn't trade it for anything. There was no religion or gay issues in my troop. Our weekly meetings were in a building on a catholic church grounds and we did say things such as the pledge of allegiance and the scout oath & law but that was pretty much it for religion. I have no clue if the troop members were catholic, jewish or atheist. I myself have only been to church about 3 times in my life. We never had or new of any gay troop members. If there had been, they would have been treated the same as any other scout by our leaders. I suppose the kids would have treated them however kids treat a gay kid in school.
I suppose it all has to do with who is the troop leaders. If the leaders were extremely religious or homophobic then well I suppose it could have been a different adventure.
I suppose it all has to do with who is the troop leaders. If the leaders were extremely religious or homophobic then well I suppose it could have been a different adventure.
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: thepd7
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: NFS4
Wow, I think someone said it best on MSNBC last week. You know that your opponent has run out of meaningful things to say when the Hitler references come out
That being said, to tell you the truth, I really don't care what others think about the Boy Scouts or what they do. All I know is that I thought that it was beneficial to me as a youth and when I was going through the scouts NOT ONCE did the issue of race or homosexuality enter the equation.
The rest can do as you please. No skin off my nose.
no, you can't trot out that internet "law", just look into the youth groups during that time and you can see they do have strong parallels. and their strong points did not make up for the evil involved. and it doesn't matter if your troop leader is specifically homophobic, many aren't. i never got a talk about homos in scouts ever. but the simple fact is there is no way to join without supporting the organization and its leadership which is clearly bigoted. there is no joining while flagging yourself as objecting to things. you join, you place yourself on their side and in effect bolster their position. as for being benificial, i think it would be more benificial to be morally/ethically consistent and teach children not to lend support to bigotry in any way. even if its personally no skin off their noses as its another group thats subject to rejection.
By the definitions of bigot at dictionary.com here you are a bigot because you have just as much intolerance for those that think being gay is wrong as they have for gays. Interesting.
if you want to get technical you couldn't be against racists without being a bigot ok? the specific bigotry here is homophobia, and in the boyscouts its not just a belief, its enforced. so stop playing games.
You can be "against" rascists, you just have to respect their beliefs. I do, and I respect their right to believe that. The reason you are a bigot is because of how you are calling scouts bigots.
OutHouse
Lifer
- Jun 5, 2000
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hey that sounds like my troop. we meet at a church but other than that and saying the scout oath there wasnt any religious stuff. i dont get why there would be either, there are scouts from all over the world of religions other than christianity. I also did the boundry waters which was totally awesome. 7 days of canoeing in canada is something ill never forget. I still got my paddle with the tip dipped in red paint.
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