The importance of Boy Scouts

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: DurocShark

Originally posted by: vi_edit

The gay/god sensitivity and hysteria is an exception, not the rule.

Not in my experience as a CS leader for 2 years.

I don't even see why that should be an issue in Cub Scouts. Most kids have not even reach a mental maturity where they could fully understand those issues. In many situations that I've read and heard about, it was usually the family that pushed the issue and raised a stink about it, not the scout leaders or the organization.

Most scout leaders that I know/knew just want their kids to have a good, safe, and educational time. They aren't there to judge and that's the last thing they want to do.

Again, this is my experience and as always, YMMV.

 

[Baked]

You can take 1st aid/CPR/Lifeguard classes at community colleges too. The classes are very cheap, some are even free I think.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Baked
You can take 1st aid/CPR/Lifeguard classes at community colleges too. The classes are very cheap, some are even free I think.

I don't think I'd be going to the community college at age 11/12

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
Former Scout here...never made it to Eagle, only a "Lifer".

I agree that it was a very good program to help build morals, bolster teamwork, and help make you a more rounded and resourceful person.

At the age that most scouts are, they really aren't old enough to really *get* the whole God thing so it's not that big of a deal IMHO. I was raised Catholic and went through all the paces, but have since changed my beliefs after getting older.

The principals are still very good, as are most of the moral teachings. Even being a non-church going person I feel that it is better environment than most others.

Scouts have received a lot of bad publicity and the whole gay thing is really blown out of proportion IMHO. It was never an issue when I was in school and is largely escalated by very outspoken people on BOTH sides of the issue. The vast majority just shrug their shoulders and deal with it when/if it comes up.

The gay/god sensitivity and hysteria is an exception, not the rule.

Do you as a person, think this is moral ?


"Darrell Lambert is a 19-year-old Eagle Scout and a member of BSA Troop 1531 in Port Orchard, Washington. He is also a member of Venturing, which is a "Traditional Scouting Program" that classifies members as being "youth" until the age of 21. On November 6, 2002, he received a certified letter from the Chief Seattle Council of the BSA terminating his membership for not changing his religious beliefs in the space of one week (he was asked to avow a theistic belief that he does not personally hold)."

source

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: DurocShark

Originally posted by: vi_edit

The gay/god sensitivity and hysteria is an exception, not the rule.

Not in my experience as a CS leader for 2 years.

As a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Explorer, camp staff, troop leader, and APhiO brother (pretty much something involving Scouting since ~2nd grade), I would say the God & gay issues are definately an exception. I've known gay scouts, atheist scouts, and scouts that were any/all combination of the two and it was never an issue.

Edit: To echo vi_edit's statement, most Scout leaders are more concerned with providing good, educational experiences while maintaining a safe atmosphere.

 

[Baked]

One of my uncles was a council member for the Mt. Diablo chapter here in the bay area. Free coffee cups, lots and lots of free coffee cups. I have more than 2 dozens of them.

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Baked
You can take 1st aid/CPR/Lifeguard classes at community colleges too. The classes are very cheap, some are even free I think.

I don't think I'd be going to the community college at age 11/12

*puts forehead in palm* I was talking about adults.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Tom
Do you as a person, think this is moral ?


"Darrell Lambert is a 19-year-old Eagle Scout and a member of BSA Troop 1531 in Port Orchard, Washington. He is also a member of Venturing, which is a "Traditional Scouting Program" that classifies members as being "youth" until the age of 21. On November 6, 2002, he received a certified letter from the Chief Seattle Council of the BSA terminating his membership for not changing his religious beliefs in the space of one week (he was asked to avow a theistic belief that he does not personally hold)."

source

My place in the Boy Scouts has been denied because I do not believe in God.

REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

What's so fuggin' hard to understand about that?

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Baked
One of my uncles was a council member for the Mt. Diablo chapter here in the bay area. Free coffee cups, lots and lots of free coffee cups. I have more than 2 dozens of them.

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Baked
You can take 1st aid/CPR/Lifeguard classes at community colleges too. The classes are very cheap, some are even free I think.

I don't think I'd be going to the community college at age 11/12

*puts forehead in palm* I was talking about adults.

But we're talking about BOY SCOUTS, not Adult Scouts. Scouts learn these things at age 11/12.

 

[DaShen]

I always wished I was in the scouts.

I did join something similar though. Plus, I know a thing or two about the outdoors since I grew up in an area where mostly we did things outdoors. But, there are definite things in scouts that are pretty cool. I only know a few types of knots. It would be cool to know them all (all the useful ones). I understand the idea of starting a fire (dry wood and some type of dry flammable starting material, friction), but it is still hard to do.

 

[Baked]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Baked
One of my uncles was a council member for the Mt. Diablo chapter here in the bay area. Free coffee cups, lots and lots of free coffee cups. I have more than 2 dozens of them.

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Baked
You can take 1st aid/CPR/Lifeguard classes at community colleges too. The classes are very cheap, some are even free I think.

I don't think I'd be going to the community college at age 11/12

*puts forehead in palm* I was talking about adults.

But we're talking about BOY SCOUTS, not Adult Scouts. Scouts learn these things at age 11/12.

Great, now you're just discriminating old people.:|

 

[MrCodeDude]

Cub Scouts were lame. I did the Pinewood Derby and for some reason, they raced my car backwards (my car was in the shape of a Shark) and when the fin crossed the line it didn't register with the sensor until more of the body passed over it.

Even though mine clearly finished first, I kept getting third according to the "automatic judging system." My dad and I proved that the sensor wasn't registering the fin and my car was within building guidelines, but the leaders would have none of it. I quit scouts then and there.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Tom
Do you as a person, think this is moral ?


"Darrell Lambert is a 19-year-old Eagle Scout and a member of BSA Troop 1531 in Port Orchard, Washington. He is also a member of Venturing, which is a "Traditional Scouting Program" that classifies members as being "youth" until the age of 21. On November 6, 2002, he received a certified letter from the Chief Seattle Council of the BSA terminating his membership for not changing his religious beliefs in the space of one week (he was asked to avow a theistic belief that he does not personally hold)."

source

My place in the Boy Scouts has been denied because I do not believe in God.

REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

What's so fuggin' hard to understand about that?

I don't have any problem understanding it, that isn't what I asked. I do not argue that the people who run Scouts can have such a policy.

I asked vi_edit if he thought it was moral ? Because of what he said in his message about his beliefs, i want to know what he thinks about it.

I didn't ask you, because I don't have any doubt that you think it is just fine.

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: vi_edit
Former Scout here...never made it to Eagle, only a "Lifer".

I agree that it was a very good program to help build morals, bolster teamwork, and help make you a more rounded and resourceful person.

At the age that most scouts are, they really aren't old enough to really *get* the whole God thing so it's not that big of a deal IMHO. I was raised Catholic and went through all the paces, but have since changed my beliefs after getting older.

The principals are still very good, as are most of the moral teachings. Even being a non-church going person I feel that it is better environment than most others.

Scouts have received a lot of bad publicity and the whole gay thing is really blown out of proportion IMHO. It was never an issue when I was in school and is largely escalated by very outspoken people on BOTH sides of the issue. The vast majority just shrug their shoulders and deal with it when/if it comes up.

The gay/god sensitivity and hysteria is an exception, not the rule.

Do you as a person, think this is moral ?


"Darrell Lambert is a 19-year-old Eagle Scout and a member of BSA Troop 1531 in Port Orchard, Washington. He is also a member of Venturing, which is a "Traditional Scouting Program" that classifies members as being "youth" until the age of 21. On November 6, 2002, he received a certified letter from the Chief Seattle Council of the BSA terminating his membership for not changing his religious beliefs in the space of one week (he was asked to avow a theistic belief that he does not personally hold)."

source

I really don't have much background on it, and honestly don't care enough to read all of the links. I do think that the council that made that decision lacked tact and compassion and that it did not help itself in the way it was handled.

My honest opinion is that a belief in God is a tiny fraction of the overall picture and value of scouting and that anyone on either side that focuses soley on it is missing the point of the program.

It's not a one sided problem.

 

[MrCodeDude]

When has anyone needed to use those skills? How many of you Eagle scouts have actually performed CPR or needed to start a fire out of the bare minimum? Yeah, it's great you could handle yourself if presented in the situation, but how many of you have actually been in that situation?

Further more, I was a lifeguard at a local pool and you know what they taught us there? DON'T PERFORM CPR. Wait for the Ambulance to come. Insurance reasons and all that good stuff.

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: MrCodeDude
When has anyone needed to use those skills? How many of you Eagle scouts have actually performed CPR or needed to start a fire out of the bare minimum? Yeah, it's great you could handle yourself if presented in the situation, but how many of you have actually been in that situation?

Further more, I was a lifeguard at a local pool and you know what they taught us there? DON'T PERFORM CPR. Wait for the Ambulance to come. Insurance reasons and all that good stuff.

Scouting helps develop teamwork, problem solving skills, and promotes resourcefulness that so many of todays computer indulged kids lack. It also helps build a bit of humbleness - go drag a tent 3 miles into the woods, make your own food, dig a whole and bury your own crap, and put up with all of the other stuff and it really makes you appreciate what you have a bit more instead of just accepting it.

 

[TuxDave]

I spent a lot of time in Cub Scouts and maybe 2-3 years in Boy Scouts. There were some fun moments but overall I hated the experience and left after getting the first rank (Tenderfoot? lol). I would say joining Boy Scouts is beneficial as long as you find a good group. But then again that can be said of many other community services.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: vi_edit
Former Scout here...never made it to Eagle, only a "Lifer".

I agree that it was a very good program to help build morals, bolster teamwork, and help make you a more rounded and resourceful person.

At the age that most scouts are, they really aren't old enough to really *get* the whole God thing so it's not that big of a deal IMHO. I was raised Catholic and went through all the paces, but have since changed my beliefs after getting older.

The principals are still very good, as are most of the moral teachings. Even being a non-church going person I feel that it is better environment than most others.

Scouts have received a lot of bad publicity and the whole gay thing is really blown out of proportion IMHO. It was never an issue when I was in school and is largely escalated by very outspoken people on BOTH sides of the issue. The vast majority just shrug their shoulders and deal with it when/if it comes up.

The gay/god sensitivity and hysteria is an exception, not the rule.

Do you as a person, think this is moral ?


"Darrell Lambert is a 19-year-old Eagle Scout and a member of BSA Troop 1531 in Port Orchard, Washington. He is also a member of Venturing, which is a "Traditional Scouting Program" that classifies members as being "youth" until the age of 21. On November 6, 2002, he received a certified letter from the Chief Seattle Council of the BSA terminating his membership for not changing his religious beliefs in the space of one week (he was asked to avow a theistic belief that he does not personally hold)."

source

I really don't have much background on it, and honestly don't care enough to read all of the links. I do think that the council that made that decision lacked tact and compassion and that it did not help itself in the way it was handled.

My honest opinion is that a belief in God is a tiny fraction of the overall picture and value of scouting and that anyone on either side that focuses soley on it is missing the point of the program.

It's not a one sided problem.

Do you believe that every human being has value ?

If you do, which kids do you think should not be allowed to have the benefits of being a Boy Scout ?

You don't think it matters much if some kids are excluded ? Or even one kid ?

 

[Todd33]

I'll keep my kid out. I have no reason to support a bigot right wing organization. I'm sure 95% of the people involved are great, but that's not good enough.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: GeekDrew

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Did they also ingrain homophobia in you? I could never send my future children into an organization that actively descriminates against a group of people.

They also promote faith in God. Is that a problem for you as well?

Was never really an issue for me, our troop didn't have any homosexuals in it. And I don't remember there being a section in the Scout manual about bashing gays

For me, promoting faith in God isn't a problem. But bashing gays *is* a huge deal. Around here, it seems that the #1 activity for those in the scouts is to bash gays. That's pretty much the *only* reason I dislike the Boy Scouts.

Gay bashing? WTH? Are they up on soap boxes preaching against gays? It doesn't really make sense at all.

LOLz NFS4 show us the BASH-A-GAY-IN-THE-HEAD Badge you earned :roll:

fvcking media

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: Feldenak

As a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Explorer, camp staff, troop leader, and APhiO brother (pretty much something involving Scouting since ~2nd grade), I would say the God & gay issues are definately an exception. I've known gay scouts, atheist scouts, and scouts that were any/all combination of the two and it was never an issue.

Edit: To echo vi_edit's statement, most Scout leaders are more concerned with providing good, educational experiences while maintaining a safe atmosphere.

My concern is that it is becoming less and less of an exception. I think a large number of the boys in my troop were atheist or at least leaning that way as teenagers. It was'nt a big deal. We even had a troop member who had a lot of stereotypical gay mannerisms, though he never came out.

We were there to have fun, learn about nature, leadership, and responsibility. Personally I don't think you need to be hetero or christian to learn about those things. But the sense I got before I left, and I have been out for a few years, is that they were cracking down. I've read a number of stories about different situations, and I think you will always have a variety of differences amongst troops. But I think council, district and national scout leaderships are making it more and more clear that they are watching.

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: vi_edit
Former Scout here...never made it to Eagle, only a "Lifer".

I agree that it was a very good program to help build morals, bolster teamwork, and help make you a more rounded and resourceful person.

At the age that most scouts are, they really aren't old enough to really *get* the whole God thing so it's not that big of a deal IMHO. I was raised Catholic and went through all the paces, but have since changed my beliefs after getting older.

The principals are still very good, as are most of the moral teachings. Even being a non-church going person I feel that it is better environment than most others.

Scouts have received a lot of bad publicity and the whole gay thing is really blown out of proportion IMHO. It was never an issue when I was in school and is largely escalated by very outspoken people on BOTH sides of the issue. The vast majority just shrug their shoulders and deal with it when/if it comes up.

The gay/god sensitivity and hysteria is an exception, not the rule.

Do you as a person, think this is moral ?


"Darrell Lambert is a 19-year-old Eagle Scout and a member of BSA Troop 1531 in Port Orchard, Washington. He is also a member of Venturing, which is a "Traditional Scouting Program" that classifies members as being "youth" until the age of 21. On November 6, 2002, he received a certified letter from the Chief Seattle Council of the BSA terminating his membership for not changing his religious beliefs in the space of one week (he was asked to avow a theistic belief that he does not personally hold)."

source

I really don't have much background on it, and honestly don't care enough to read all of the links. I do think that the council that made that decision lacked tact and compassion and that it did not help itself in the way it was handled.

My honest opinion is that a belief in God is a tiny fraction of the overall picture and value of scouting and that anyone on either side that focuses soley on it is missing the point of the program.

It's not a one sided problem.

Do you believe that every human being has value ?

If you do, which kids do you think should not be allowed to have the benefits of being a Boy Scout ?

You don't think it matters much if some kids are excluded ? Or even one kid ?

You are doing exactly what I pointed out. Finding one exposed nail in 20' long board and trying to drive it in with a sledghammer.

The national administration for Scouting has handled the issue poorly and made more out of it than was necessary. On the other hand, scouts/parents of scouts have made more of an issue out of it than was neccessary and made it more of a personal vendetta against scouting than against religion.

That silent group that makes about 95% of the rest of the organization really could give a flying fsck and just wants to have a fun, safe, and educational time regardless of your yet to be determined sexual orientation or religious beliefs.

I'm not going to debate it any further. I still maintain that on the whole it is a very good program for youths and that a few bad seeds on both sides of the table do not ruin the overall merit of the organization.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: vi_edit
Former Scout here...never made it to Eagle, only a "Lifer".

I agree that it was a very good program to help build morals, bolster teamwork, and help make you a more rounded and resourceful person.

At the age that most scouts are, they really aren't old enough to really *get* the whole God thing so it's not that big of a deal IMHO. I was raised Catholic and went through all the paces, but have since changed my beliefs after getting older.

The principals are still very good, as are most of the moral teachings. Even being a non-church going person I feel that it is better environment than most others.

Scouts have received a lot of bad publicity and the whole gay thing is really blown out of proportion IMHO. It was never an issue when I was in school and is largely escalated by very outspoken people on BOTH sides of the issue. The vast majority just shrug their shoulders and deal with it when/if it comes up.

The gay/god sensitivity and hysteria is an exception, not the rule.

Do you as a person, think this is moral ?


"Darrell Lambert is a 19-year-old Eagle Scout and a member of BSA Troop 1531 in Port Orchard, Washington. He is also a member of Venturing, which is a "Traditional Scouting Program" that classifies members as being "youth" until the age of 21. On November 6, 2002, he received a certified letter from the Chief Seattle Council of the BSA terminating his membership for not changing his religious beliefs in the space of one week (he was asked to avow a theistic belief that he does not personally hold)."

source

I really don't have much background on it, and honestly don't care enough to read all of the links. I do think that the council that made that decision lacked tact and compassion and that it did not help itself in the way it was handled.

My honest opinion is that a belief in God is a tiny fraction of the overall picture and value of scouting and that anyone on either side that focuses soley on it is missing the point of the program.

It's not a one sided problem.

Do you believe that every human being has value ?

If you do, which kids do you think should not be allowed to have the benefits of being a Boy Scout ?

You don't think it matters much if some kids are excluded ? Or even one kid ?

You are doing exactly what I pointed out. Finding one exposed nail in 20' long board and trying to drive it in with a sledghammer.

The national administration for Scouting has handled the issue poorly and made more out of it than was necessary. On the other hand, scouts/parents of scouts have made more of an issue out of it than was neccessary and made it more of a personal vendetta against scouting than against religion.

That silent group that makes about 95% of the rest of the organization really could give a flying fsck and just wants to have a fun, safe, and educational time regardless of your yet to be determined sexual orientation or religious beliefs.

I'm not going to debate it any further. I still maintain that on the whole it is a very good program for youths and that a few bad seeds on both sides of the table do not ruin the overall merit of the organization.

I don't have a problem with Gay Scouts, it's the Pedophile Scout Leaders that concern me. Granted they are few and far between but when one does pop up it seems to garner national attention.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't have a problem with Gay Scouts, it's the Pedophile Scout Leaders that concern me. Granted they are few and far between but when one does pop up it seems to garner national attention.

Pedophile Catholic Priest jokes tend to have better punchlines though.

- M4H

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: vi_edit
Former Scout here...never made it to Eagle, only a "Lifer".

I agree that it was a very good program to help build morals, bolster teamwork, and help make you a more rounded and resourceful person.

At the age that most scouts are, they really aren't old enough to really *get* the whole God thing so it's not that big of a deal IMHO. I was raised Catholic and went through all the paces, but have since changed my beliefs after getting older.

The principals are still very good, as are most of the moral teachings. Even being a non-church going person I feel that it is better environment than most others.

Scouts have received a lot of bad publicity and the whole gay thing is really blown out of proportion IMHO. It was never an issue when I was in school and is largely escalated by very outspoken people on BOTH sides of the issue. The vast majority just shrug their shoulders and deal with it when/if it comes up.

The gay/god sensitivity and hysteria is an exception, not the rule.

Do you as a person, think this is moral ?


"Darrell Lambert is a 19-year-old Eagle Scout and a member of BSA Troop 1531 in Port Orchard, Washington. He is also a member of Venturing, which is a "Traditional Scouting Program" that classifies members as being "youth" until the age of 21. On November 6, 2002, he received a certified letter from the Chief Seattle Council of the BSA terminating his membership for not changing his religious beliefs in the space of one week (he was asked to avow a theistic belief that he does not personally hold)."

source

I really don't have much background on it, and honestly don't care enough to read all of the links. I do think that the council that made that decision lacked tact and compassion and that it did not help itself in the way it was handled.

My honest opinion is that a belief in God is a tiny fraction of the overall picture and value of scouting and that anyone on either side that focuses soley on it is missing the point of the program.

It's not a one sided problem.

Do you believe that every human being has value ?

If you do, which kids do you think should not be allowed to have the benefits of being a Boy Scout ?

You don't think it matters much if some kids are excluded ? Or even one kid ?

You are doing exactly what I pointed out. Finding one exposed nail in 20' long board and trying to drive it in with a sledghammer.

The national administration for Scouting has handled the issue poorly and made more out of it than was necessary. On the other hand, scouts/parents of scouts have made more of an issue out of it than was neccessary and made it more of a personal vendetta against scouting than against religion.

That silent group that makes about 95% of the rest of the organization really could give a flying fsck and just wants to have a fun, safe, and educational time regardless of your yet to be determined sexual orientation or religious beliefs.

I'm not going to debate it any further. I still maintain that on the whole it is a very good program for youths and that a few bad seeds on both sides of the table do not ruin the overall merit of the organization.

I don't see how you can say a 19 year old kid who refuses to lie about his religious beliefs is a bad seed, but I won't ask you about it anymore.

 

[thomsbrain]

6) Brainwashed to hate gay people and non-Christians.


And that's the reason my kids will never have anything to do with it, despite the fact that I spent years in Scouts. My Eagle Scout father, who has since sprouted a brain of his own, makes no bones about expressing his hatred for the organization. They lure you in with fun activities and subtly push their agenda on you. Besides, Scouting jamborees suck big fat donkey balls. BTW, the only "first aid" I learned in Scouts was to apply pressure to a wound. I'm now Red Cross CPR and First Aid certified, but no thanks to Scouts.

Family camping trips and community college or employer-sponsored first aid courses > Hitler Youth.