The Horrors of Socialized Healthcare

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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,125
30,518
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Haven't you tried to point out the irony of going to the VA and thinking socialized wouldn't work here? I think it is a rhetorical question based upon your posting history and your love of sarcasm, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong. As far as the last part something tells me he is fairly close on those numbers, they did own that small airport in Arkansas that the CIA was using to bring cocaine into the country from Columbia.
Everything I said about my father is 100% true. No sarcasm unfortunately. Great guy, but bonkers like so many religious people are.
 

DarthKyrie

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2016
1,545
1,305
146
Everything I said about my father is 100% true. No sarcasm unfortunately. Great guy, but bonkers like so many religious people are.

I was asking if you used your witty sarcasm to point out the irony to your father or father-in-law about using the VA and being skeptical about socialized healthcare. The only sarcasm in my post was the rhetorical question FYI.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Good for them. Now tell me detailed steps to get the same thing here. I had a lawyer once who handled a case pro bono. It was a small matter and we won. Now how do I get you and all lawyers to do the same? If I had Trump's fortune I could get great lawyers but representation could cost a hell of a lot more depending on the situation, potentially over a million. Ask Manafort. So get me that for 50 Euros. Should be easy, right?


Neither my nor your anecdotes say anything as to what is possible and how to get it done.

Don't complain about anecdotes or what it's like elsewhere. Don't go "socialized medicine", "Portugal", "Medicare for all", give specific solutions as I have and some others.

It's important to understand what a given anecdote proves and doesn't prove. My anecdote proves little to nothing about the quality of care in Portugal because it is one case and for all I know, they might have gotten the best spinal surgeons in Lisbon either because of luck or maybe because they were tourists.

What it does prove is that ordinary citizens get their healthcare cheap there, after paying taxes for it. 50 Euros for a complicated surgery and a 2 week hospital stay. Would have easily been 200K here.

What do you want to know? How to pay for it? People like AOC have unfortunately not done a great job explaining that.

Most people get their health insurance through their employers currently. These employers pay high amounts for private insurance. Sometimes the employee has to pay for part of it. In a single payer system, that expense goes away. So you can tax those employers enough to pay for Medicare for each of their employees. Since Medicare is cheaper, they'd actually save money. In fact, big companies would get a substantial windfall out of it.

You'd also have to tax employers who don't currently buy insurance for their employees, however. But you can make exceptions for small businesses or business like fast food where they have lots of low wage employees. They may pay no tax or a lower tax. You can make up the shortfall by taxing the wealthy.

The tradeoff is that since Medicare has lower reimbursement rates, which is why it's cheaper, doctors will make less money. So will drug companies and medical device manufacturers.

It isn't rocket science, not in its broad terms anyway. It works in dozens of other countries quite well. I see zero reason, other than political opposition from the right, why we can't do it here.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
That is called cost controls and it is done in all countries with an NHS style system, and would, of course, be a part of Medicare-for-All here. Medicare already has cost controls built into the system the only part that they can't negotiate on pricing is with PhRMA. Once Medicare is allowed to negotiate on drugs it will be good.

Remember one thing, those drugs exist because the US subsidizes development which allows others to pay less. I'm not saying it's right or fair, but it is what it is and so a new paradigm is really really what we need.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
It isn't rocket science, not in its broad terms anyway. It works in dozens of other countries quite well. I see zero reason, other than political opposition from the right, why we can't do it here.


Fine. We now have Portugal's prices and care. Wasn't that easy? No, not so. In broad terms let me tell you the equivalent for getting to Mars. Build a big rocket. Put people in it. Launch. Put a bunch of stuff in another rocket and launch it so there's things there for the people. Land rocket. Walk around and stuff. Get back in and fly home.

Easy peasy. "You see zero reason" and I get that. That's the problem. People don't know what is required but there's a lot of those who are experts anyway. Over three decades of considering the various aspects of my area of expertise, care, and seeing the good and bad from inside the system and as a patient, I understand vastly more than someone who has not. A cohesive working system is going to be incredibly difficult to pull off and it will require planning and execution of things not fully understood. Rocket science is insignificant in scope and I know a bit about that too, at least enough to have an intelligent conversation with those who participate in that particular field.

Now how do I get the best lawyers for free?
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,125
30,518
136
I was asking if you used your witty sarcasm to point out the irony to your father or father-in-law about using the VA and being skeptical about socialized healthcare. The only sarcasm in my post was the rhetorical question FYI.
Sarcasm wouldn't help. True story:

I'm out golfing with him, early summer of 2016. He hates Trump and my mother hates Trump even more. Typical for religious nuts, and the only thing they hate worse than Trump is Democrats. So I'm busting his balls about how Republicans are going to nominate the piece of shit and he starts up with the Hillary is worse crap. At this point I had no idea how far down the rabbit hole he had fallen. I had always just assumed that my mother was the crazy one and he was just along for the ride, ie: happy wife happy life. I ask him how he could say Hillary is worse and he says she has killed 4 people. When I got home I sent him a snopes article disproving the claim that she has killed 5 people, explaining in detail how it took major leaps in logic to even tie the five people to her let alone prove she was involved in their deaths. His reply? "See? She killed 5 people!"
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,125
30,518
136
Fine. We now have Portugal's prices and care. Wasn't that easy? No, not so. In broad terms let me tell you the equivalent for getting to Mars. Build a big rocket. Put people in it. Launch. Put a bunch of stuff in another rocket and launch it so there's things there for the people. Land rocket. Walk around and stuff. Get back in and fly home.

Easy peasy. "You see zero reason" and I get that. That's the problem. People don't know what is required but there's a lot of those who are experts anyway. Over three decades of considering the various aspects of my area of expertise, care, and seeing the good and bad from inside the system and as a patient, I understand vastly more than someone who has not. A cohesive working system is going to be incredibly difficult to pull off and it will require planning and execution of things not fully understood. Rocket science is insignificant in scope and I know a bit about that too, at least enough to have an intelligent conversation with those who participate in that particular field.

Now how do I get the best lawyers for free?
Still waiting to hear what the flaws with Medicare are preventing us from just scaling it up to cover everyone.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
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Remember one thing, those drugs exist because the US subsidizes development which allows others to pay less. I'm not saying it's right or fair, but it is what it is and so a new paradigm is really really what we need.

Money and greed is what drives innovation.... It is what it is.

No one goes for a mom and pop garage business on the prospect of barely making ends meet.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,125
30,518
136
Money and greed is what drives innovation.... It is what it is.

No one goes for a mom and pop garage business on the prospect of barely making ends meet.
People were inventing shit long before they had any concept of money. Don't be stupid. There are plenty of motivators besides capitalism.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
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Necessity is the mother of invention.

I don't NEED a fleshlight to jack off. It's nice to have though.....

From what I've heard....

Sorry, but it's money that drives innovation more than anything. Maybe when we didn't have food, crops, and homes I might agree with your statement.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,436
1,567
126
I'm sick of doing this repetitive thing.
I like to learn about new things.
I like to help people.
I want to be famous.
This+. Nothing wrong with wanting to make money, but in many cases, it is not the main motivator behind Human actions.
 
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DarthKyrie

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2016
1,545
1,305
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I'm sick of doing this repetitive thing.
I like to learn about new things.
I like to help people.
I want to be famous.

Don't forget the idea known as building a better mousetrap, aka improving upon an existing design to make things easier.

It's amazing that some people can't think about anything but immediate profit. Tesla and Eddison come to mind when I think about that statement.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,077
37,268
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Money and greed is what drives innovation.... It is what it is.

No one goes for a mom and pop garage business on the prospect of barely making ends meet.

The vast majority of this research is undertaken by university paid scientists who really don't aspire to great wealth. The hard sciences are filled with people who's primary (or even an important) drive isn't simple greed. Casting everyones values as the same is a lazy mistake.
 

Dulanic

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2000
9,951
570
136
The vast majority of this research is undertaken by university paid scientists who really don't aspire to great wealth. The hard sciences are filled with people who's primary (or even an important) drive isn't simple greed. Casting everyones values as the same is a lazy mistake.
Pretty much this. I have no doubt big pharma would hide cures for things that would hurt their bottom line long term.
 

DarthKyrie

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2016
1,545
1,305
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Pretty much this. I have no doubt big pharma would hide cures for things that would hurt their bottom line long term.

It's been known to happen. It wouldn't have surprised me if manufacturers had tried to acquire the polio vaccine from Dr. Salk, in order to bury it. There is no profit in the prevention of disease, only the treatment.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,634
8,522
136
Money and greed is what drives innovation.... It is what it is.

No one goes for a mom and pop garage business on the prospect of barely making ends meet.


The probleem is that money and greed also drive a whole lot of other things - including system-gaming, wasteful duplication of effort, and sharp-practices.

Still, I think Hayabusa makes a serious point that needs serious analysis (in a context more serious than this forum!). Ultimately, cheaper drugs means a different system of drug development. Which might involve some losses.

One question I would have is what gets prioritised in terms of drug development by a market system? 50 different kinds of very slightly different pain-killers? A marginally-effective treatment for baldness vs life-saving treatments for diseases that mostly kill poor people?
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,993
13,519
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Money and greed is what drives innovation.... It is what it is.

No one goes for a mom and pop garage business on the prospect of barely making ends meet.

Its not the only component, by a long shot. Some people crave to create, of those people some turn out as artists other turns out as entrepreneurs... Is the money a component? Yes. Driving component? Not so sure. Von Braun just wanted to see his rockets fly. Nothing more nothing less.
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,649
26,746
136
All I know is that health care for all is impossible in the US. We're too big for it. Have too many people who really don't want any health care. We're too fat. If we do it, we'll quickly only have leaches and witch doctors. It will the second coming of Lenin. Dogs and I cats will start to be friends. Real end of the world shit.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
All I know is that health care for all is impossible in the US. We're too big for it. Have too many people who really don't want any health care. We're too fat. If we do it, we'll quickly only have leaches and witch doctors. It will the second coming of Lenin. Dogs and I cats will start to be friends. Real end of the world shit.

It's the devil and you're better off without it. :p