The Horrors of Socialized Healthcare

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Feb 4, 2009
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If i remember right Taiwan was one of the countries that sent top officials and doctors to almost all other countries that have socialized medicine to learn about what works and doesnt in each particular system. Came back home and shared notes and then formalized their new socialized healthcare system based off what was working in other countries. Sounds smart. So Murica has no chance, sadly lol

Yes, I saw something about this on TV a few years ago. One this their system does is its brutally efficient. They concentrate more on quality of life for those who have long term diseases or are approaching end of life. That allows the patient to be treated with respect and controls a bunch of costs.
I think I've read that somewhere around 1/3rd of all our life times medical expenses will happen within the last 6 months of our lives. That is a startling number to realize and maybe that last 3-6 month's of life are not worth the opportunity cost of being healthy when you are younger.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Wait. You're implying that there are more people in the US than covered under the various universal healthcare regimes of OECD nations? I don't think that's right.

I think he is talking about detangling the bureaucratizes.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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Wait. You're implying that there are more people in the US than covered under the various universal healthcare regimes of OECD nations? I don't think that's right.

Pick a western nation that's larger than we are.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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That's not what you said.

Poorly worded on my part, mea culpa. "Far larger than any nation or system in the western world" then? Half the size of all combined close to right? We're more diverse than any western nation and spread out into more demographics certainly. What native americans need is vastly different in terms of delivery than someone in NYC or Peoria. Remember we aren't talking payment, but the wholesale ownership of medicine by the government which is what "socialized medicine" is.

I will stand by my statement elsewhere that a cohesive unified and superior health care system would be the largest single project this nation and likely any other nation for that matter has attempted. To do it properly requires a level of coordination and innovation that's not even properly understood at this time. It is indeed easier to put a colony on Mars or create the means to fix global warming in the allotted time than moving to a different form of care, and I don't mean lipstick on a pig.

Question as an example- How does one guarantee continual improvement for medication that is affordable to people or their proxy the government? "You can't charge more than"? No, because the cost of failure even without profits is fantastic, in the billions too often for drugs that only a handful might use assuming the drug passes trials at all. So there's the first challenge for you, one of countless. Ensure a constant flow of medications and cutting edge research ongoing on a massive scale. "Socialized medicine does..." what, and I mean exactly what.

Again I'm not saying we can't have some form of universal coverage but the majority haven't a clue what they are asking. I'd like a ten dollar reliable Ferrari, but I know better.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Brother-in-law's parents were vacationing in Portugal when they got into an accident in their rental car. She broke a vertebra in her neck, very serious situation which could have caused paralysis. Was immobilized by EMT's, then rushed to a hospital in Lisbon. Performed fusion surgery on her neck. She stayed there for over 2 weeks, then was flown back to the US under special conditions.

The doctors here gave her an x-ray and an MRI. They said the work done in Portugal was "a different technique than we use here" but was "excellent" work. She made a full recovery in about three months.

They did ultimately receive a bill from the hospital in Lisbon for all her treatment.

For 50 Euros.

The world is full of anecdotes.
 
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K1052

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Question as an example- How does one guarantee continual improvement for medication that is affordable to people or their proxy the government? "You can't charge more than"? No, because the cost of failure even without profits is fantastic, in the billions too often for drugs that only a handful might use assuming the drug passes trials at all. So there's the first challenge for you, one of countless. Ensure a constant flow of medications and cutting edge research ongoing on a massive scale. "Socialized medicine does..." what, and I mean exactly what.

Pharma companies spend more on marketing than they do on R&D and a lot of the groundbreaking research which makes their products possible is done on the university level (public money) in the first place. I'm certainly open to restructuring how drugs make to to market that would reduce the cost barrier while maintaining safety and increasing grants to universities to dramatically expand medical/biotech research.


imrs.php.jpeg
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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"He was checked-in and given IV fluids within 20 minutes of his arrival."
What, no 6 hour wait?

“The bill for the ER visit? . . . U.S. $80.00.”
I think he missed two zeroes on that. Blood work, and scans? Plus all that time in the ER, I'm pretty sure that'd cost you $8,000.00 in America.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
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That sounds terrible. I like waiting forever and getting billed so hard my ass is numb and I have to go back.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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I'm going to predict that this is one of those incidents where the conservatives will claim that anecdotal stories aren't a reflection of general reality.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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I'm going to predict that this is one of those incidents where the conservatives will claim that anecdotal stories aren't a reflection of general reality.

LOL which is a total joke since all they do is reason by anecdote. Look what Jussie Smollett proves about all hate crimes allegations!
 

Hayabusa Rider

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Pharma companies spend more on marketing than they do on R&D and a lot of the groundbreaking research which makes their products possible is done on the university level (public money) in the first place. I'm certainly open to restructuring how drugs make to to market that would reduce the cost barrier while maintaining safety and increasing grants to universities to dramatically expand medical/biotech research.


View attachment 3767


I know this and the point remains that spending money for losses and not getting a profit will put companies out of business. You cut profit and companies will cut investment and go back to "me too" meds.

So for all the failings which are true, such as advertising and outrageous corporate compensations, how do you intimidate a private industry to do what you tell it to Constitutionally? Seize it like the steel industry as Truman tried? Even Congress will likely be dissed for such an outright attack, whether we call it that or not.

You've identified real problems. So your solution which won't have the SCOTUS tossing it out and gets exactly what we need? "Socialize it" isn't a proper response as I'm sure you understand. Again I'm trying to drive home that a phrase isn't in itself a nuts and bolts solution.

What can be done that gets what we need, specifically, that is, less expensive care AND better access AND superior outcomes? This kind of thing cannot be done like an Amazon addon, it needs to be part of the fundamental "infrastructure", the roadbed of medical practice.

So how about less generalization and more specifics with positives and negatives? That's a question to the forum, not selecting you out specifically.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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As an American, all I think of when it comes to healthcare is the cost to me. And how to avoid healthcare AT ALL costs. No one wants to be immediately bankrupted in exchange for a few hours of treatment.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

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LOL which is a total joke since all they do is reason by anecdote. Look what Jussie Smollett proves about all hate crimes allegations!


Good thing that some of us who aren't conservative understand applicability and the subject. If you want anecdotes I have some beauties and none of them are positive about the current system.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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As an American, all I think of when it comes to healthcare is the cost to me. And how to avoid healthcare AT ALL costs. No one wants to be immediately bankrupted in exchange for a few hours of treatment.

I spent my entire retirement due to health issues. All I have is Social Security and I can't access that yet. Bankruptcy doesn't pay the bills when basic needs can't be met. What a frigging sad "contest", eh? "So you think you have it bad" is sad.
 
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K1052

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I know this and the point remains that spending money for losses and not getting a profit will put companies out of business.

More broadly would this actually be bad? The dollars spent by these companies on R&D are basically trivial in the context of the federal budget. If universities had the wherewithal to build upon their own research and create, license, and sell effective treatments essentially at or near cost nobody would likely miss big Pharma.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
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Friend of a Friends horror story. He was in England for some trade show. He was opening a box for a display in his hotel room with what he described as a stupid knife to use. He cut his hand very deep using the knife, he bled on the bed and carpet. He said "oh shit" I don't want to get billed for the blood stain. Called cleaning to let them know, a guy showed up and insisted he go to the hospital. Guy was worried about the cost. Sits down in the ER waits a bit, he said it wasn't along time but it wasn't immediate either. Got a temporary bandage, sat down with some administrator who advised him to pay a "priority access fee" to get added for care, had someone who appeared to be an intern do some stitches and left with some antibiotic. Total cost $20 for the express filing thing, $20 for the stitches/antibiotic thing. Total of $40.00.

Which brings us to:
How much should stitches and a basic antibiotic cost?
How much should a fairly standard blood test cost
How much should a basic kidney scan cost
how much should billing, reading the tests or scan cost.

Add a couple zeroes. Minimum. Gotta prop up the worthless middleman insurance industry and help their CEO buy another house in Park City.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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More broadly would this actually be bad? The dollars spent by these companies on R&D are basically trivial in the context of the federal budget. If universities had the wherewithal to build upon their own research and create, license, and sell effective treatments essentially at or near cost nobody would likely miss big Pharma.


There you go! A possibility. My idea which I admittedly borrowed and expanded was something that GWB was going to sign off on way back when. A quasi-independent entity was going to develop malaria meds for the world for really cheap, affordable by third world standards. The funding mechanism would be the Feds who had oversight on things like proper financial management. The government protects the IP from litigation from pharma and others and work was going to begin but Bush was out before that happened. The next administration's representatives laughed at the idea and crushed it in infancy without so much as a single thought.

My idea is a global foundation in which nations can invest under very strict conditions to hire the best minds in the world- not lowest bidder, but whatever it takes to outcompete other interests. This could be done with academia, a dedicated facility and more all at once. The "Foundation" as I will refer to it has international protection from lawsuits and licenses out production again with broad protections and draconian penalties such as criminal charges for a corporate board or individual who violate any agreements, without any recourse. The supply chain for ingredients is likewise protected, a trick companies use to control the market.

Of course, any company who wants to compete is free to do so in a legitimate, not patent lawyer, manner.


Naturally specifics would have to be worked out however that is the bones and a large part of the flash to a new paradigm in which profit isn't an issue because it doesn't contextually exist as a concept.
 
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cfenton

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Pharma companies spend more on marketing than they do on R&D and a lot of the groundbreaking research which makes their products possible is done on the university level (public money) in the first place. I'm certainly open to restructuring how drugs make to to market that would reduce the cost barrier while maintaining safety and increasing grants to universities to dramatically expand medical/biotech research.


View attachment 3767

That doesn't even take into account the R&D spent on vanity cures like hairloss treatment. Those companies are interested in curing problems rich people have, because that's the best way to make a lot of money. As you say, much of the research on drugs that help cure or prevent the most dangerous diseases is done by universities.
 
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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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Oh come on R&D may be expensive, but let's not pretend that greed isn't the primary motivation behind our current situation. Between the pharma's manipulating patents and rigged pricing with hospitals and insurance, it's all a big scam. We don't need socialized medication, we need laws and basically...less human greed in the world. They need to be removed from the stock market which forces them to care more about bottom lines than actual advancements. I'm sure many will scoff at everything I said, but there is no fix unless you are willing to actually change things and take full unbridled greed out of the picture and the reality is no one is going to do it on their own, because they are greedy assholes. To change it will take major major changes or it's just going to keep getting worse. Perhaps rather than socializing the entire thing, we fund 'medication R&D' with tax dollars heavily regulated. We need less lies and rushing to market so they can make a quick buck and less self interests involved. We need actual published pricing for medical procedures that have nothing to do with insurance coverage negotiations. We need an honest government. We need honest corporations.

Unfortunately, all the above won't happen, because our world is fucking corrupt. That is why the whole socialized medicine is seen as the only 'fix'. It's already been proven when given the chance, people won't do the responsible thing no their own.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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Poorly worded on my part, mea culpa. "Far larger than any nation or system in the western world" then? Half the size of all combined close to right? We're more diverse than any western nation and spread out into more demographics certainly. What native americans need is vastly different in terms of delivery than someone in NYC or Peoria. Remember we aren't talking payment, but the wholesale ownership of medicine by the government which is what "socialized medicine" is.

I will stand by my statement elsewhere that a cohesive unified and superior health care system would be the largest single project this nation and likely any other nation for that matter has attempted. To do it properly requires a level of coordination and innovation that's not even properly understood at this time. It is indeed easier to put a colony on Mars or create the means to fix global warming in the allotted time than moving to a different form of care, and I don't mean lipstick on a pig.

Question as an example- How does one guarantee continual improvement for medication that is affordable to people or their proxy the government? "You can't charge more than"? No, because the cost of failure even without profits is fantastic, in the billions too often for drugs that only a handful might use assuming the drug passes trials at all. So there's the first challenge for you, one of countless. Ensure a constant flow of medications and cutting edge research ongoing on a massive scale. "Socialized medicine does..." what, and I mean exactly what.

Again I'm not saying we can't have some form of universal coverage but the majority haven't a clue what they are asking. I'd like a ten dollar reliable Ferrari, but I know better.
Does Medicare have problems treating old people in every corner of the country? Maybe problems covering old native Americans?
 
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interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Big pharma is big business. They are going to spend their money in ways to maximize their profits, and that favors marketing under the current climate. Ironically, things worked better when doctors were in bed with pharma. They started targeting consumers directly because of attempts to cut out their shenanigans with doctors. They found a much bigger cash cow, and now are even more incentivezed to create drugs that really aren't needed because they can profit from them. But despite the huge marketing spend, R&D costs to actually bring a drug from basic science research to FDA approval are massive and growing as the FDA tries to advocate for better data. Unfortunately this incentivezes further for profitable drug development instead of health importance.

All this said, drug costs are not close to the most important piece of the cost and inefficacy of our current healthcare systems.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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My idea is a global foundation in which nations can invest under very strict conditions to hire the best minds in the world- not lowest bidder, but whatever it takes to outcompete other interests. This could be done with academia, a dedicated facility and more all at once. The "Foundation" as I will refer to it has international protection from lawsuits and licenses out production again with broad protections and draconian penalties such as criminal charges for a corporate board or individual who violate any agreements, without any recourse. The supply chain for ingredients is likewise protected, a trick companies use to control the market.

Domestically an independent agency that effectively replaces the drug company role minus marketing and profit (by law) would be well suited to this end. Buy out all the existing Pharma companies and transfer their patents to the new entity, if they refuse use existing law to seize their patents.
 
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interchange

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Does Medicare have problems treating old people in every corner of the country? Maybe problems covering old native Americans?

Medicare rates are higher in areas with less access. It helps offset things, but money isn't the reason doctors concentrate in cities. It's more desirable living, close to where they trained, easier to connect and refer to colleagues, attend conferences, etc.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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Medicare rates are higher in areas with less access. It helps offset things, but money isn't the reason doctors concentrate in cities. It's more desirable living, close to where they trained, easier to connect and refer to colleagues, attend conferences, etc.

He's conflating health care with health care payment schemes and that's a fundamental difficulty in communication between those who know care from the inside as providers and those who look at an $80 copay in another nation and say "Medicaid", simply because they don't understand the issues involved. Things like country wide systems for allocation of resources or duplications of therapy because of inherent flaws of the topology of disconnected clusters we call a "system" is fundamentally distinct from how to pay for things. It's like saying "Let's have an interstate system, but what? We have to figure out how to do that"? Which was a preschool complexity level of HAVING a functional system which BTW we can't even keep from falling apart. I'm not blaming him because wanting a thing and having it are often separated by monumental efforts and how would he and others know the extent of what this entails?