"The GTX 680 was supposed to be the GTX 660"

[Homeles]

Anyway I'm sure if Nvidia had something faster they would have brought it out. I don't understand the need to point out or call the GTX 680 a mid range part. What are you trying to say? If it's trying to be insulting to owners and to Nvidia directly it's not a very good insult because it's high praise that a mid-range card does so well against the best the competition is offering.

Because people are getting ripped off. It's not an insult at Nvidia -- AMD is no better this generation.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Ripped off how? It's performing on par for the pricepoint.

Remember what the 8800GTX cost? $529 so higher end cards being around $400 isn't surprising.

 

[Homeles]

Ripped off how? It's performing on par for the pricepoint.

If you price everything based off of the previous generation's performance, you're going to have million dollar parts in the next few years.

 

[cmdrdredd]

That's not how it works...the top end has been ~$500 for a while now as far as single GPU cards go.

 

[Homeles]

That's not how it works...the top end has been ~$500 for a while now.

Congratulations -- you have missed the entire point of the "680 is mid range" argument.

 

[lamedude]

I don't recall anything bigger than Nehalem EX (beckton) measuring 684 mm2 on the market.

Tukwila (Itanium) is 698.75 mm².

 

[Silverforce11]

I recall seeing this somewhere, the max size limit at TSMC is 600mm2.

There's rumors from taiwan that gk110 is very near the max.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I recall seeing this somewhere, the max size limit at TSMC is 600mm2.

There's rumors from taiwan that gk110 is very near the max.

Nah, its the same 9xxmm2 as max.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Funny how the OP never came back to the thread. LoL!

It was obvious what this thread was. OP won.

 

[amenx]

I've heard the argument long ago but didnt think anyone would be so pre-occupied with it. Why is the OP so upset about it (as well as homeles)? You guys sound as if theres some huge stake riding on it, wtf? Ah, I get it... it makes Nvidia sound superior in some way, and we cant have that, lol.

 

[ShadowOfMyself]

Its just stupid, thats all

I mean really, which side do you think started with the "mid range card" claims? Everyone was like "OMG KELPER IS TEH PWNZORX" until they saw it barely beat the 7970, then the argument suddenly changed to what we see in this thread, to inflate the Nvidia win any way they can

If you mean that they planned GK104 to be their highest end offering, then yes. Whatever caused GK104 to end up as their 680, be it the death of GK100 or a management decision... the decision was made long before the 7970 even made it to market.

Yep this is exactly what I meant, and is what makes me laugh about the whole thing... People act as if Nvidia saw the 7970 and suddenly went "LOL IT SUCKS, LETS RENAME OUR CARD TO 680!"

Its bullshit, Nvidia had all the intentions of retaking the crown long before the 7970 saw the light of day

 

[lavaheadache]

Does anyone really truly care about this.......

Not at all.

except we have people with this mentality

Everything about GK104 is mid-range, design, specs, size, everything.

It's being sold as a high end card.

You could argue either way, it's a mid-range card being sold for $500 and competes with AMD's best card which was $550/600 prior to it coming out.


I'm sure Nvidia couldn't be happier either way and I won't be "upgrading" this gen either way.

The trouble with that comment is that we are pretending like NV was capable of having a higher SKU out and that we all know for a fact that AMD didn't have larger plans than Tahiti XT before Tahiti was released. The icing on the cake is how in a completely predictable manner is how the post conviently drips with nV ectoplasm. It may well have been posted in green lettering.

meh,...

 

[Homeles]

It was obvious what this thread was. OP won.

By starting with an argument completely devoid of rhetorical tact? Let me use the OP's line of thinking to make an argument on a similar chord:

Evolution is real.

People, please stop saying this. This is completely unfounded, and almost seems like trolling, at times.
These creatures were intelligently designed. If you have evidence that proves otherwise, please speak up.
(And by "evidence," I don't mean "But, but, but, teh fossil record!!!")

The OP's argument has no evidence and can therefore be dismissed. Seriously, I've seen children make better points -- "I'm right and you're wrong" isn't going to convince anybody.

Not at all.

except we have people with this mentality



The trouble with that comment is that we are pretending like NV was capable of having a higher SKU out and that we all know for a fact that AMD didn't have larger plans than Tahiti XT before Tahiti was released.

meh,...

You people don't get it. It doesn't matter if there was a higher SKU or not. Performance per dollar has hardly gone up at all, as a direct result of AMD and Nvidia selling small dies for high prices.

I've heard the argument long ago but didnt think anyone would be so pre-occupied with it. Why is the OP so upset about it (as well as homeles)? You guys sound as if theres some huge stake riding on it, wtf? Ah, I get it... it makes Nvidia sound superior in some way, and we cant have that, lol.

This is why:
http://tpucdn.com/reviews/AMD/HD_7970_GHz_Edition/images/perfdollar.gif

Performance per dollar has gone down this generation. This is after substantial price cuts.

Meanwhile, AMD and Nvidia are getting away with highway robbery:
http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/NV-Pres3.jpg

 

[lavaheadache]

Its just stupid, thats all

I mean really, which side do you think started with the "mid range card" claims? Everyone was like "OMG KELPER IS TEH PWNZORX" until they saw it barely beat the 7970, then the argument suddenly changed to what we see in this thread, to inflate the Nvidia win any way they can



Yep this is exactly what I meant, and is what makes me laugh about the whole thing... People act as if Nvidia saw the 7970 and suddenly went "LOL IT SUCKS, LETS RENAME OUR CARD TO 680!"

Its bullshit, Nvidia had all the intentions of retaking the crown long before the 7970 saw the light of day

Just to nitpick.... nvidia didn't have to retake the crown, they had it. Before the 7970 that is. I'm talking single GPU wise since that is what we are talking about here. right?

 

[Keysplayr]

Its just stupid, thats all

I mean really, which side do you think started with the "mid range card" claims? Everyone was like "OMG KELPER IS TEH PWNZORX" until they saw it barely beat the 7970, then the argument suddenly changed to what we see in this thread, to inflate the Nvidia win any way they can

Nvidia fans and neutral speculators. I understand what you're alluding to though. No true AMD fan would be caught dead admitting that a mid range competitors card beat out AMD's top end card. That just isn't going to happen. Not without a hefty supply of alka-seltzer. So, in their eyes, GK104 could not ever possibly be a 660 renamed to 680 at the last possible minute after seeing 7970 performance. I totally get that, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

[Keysplayr]

Not at all.

except we have people with this mentality

I was hoping the majority would not. Watching people claw and scratch for every conceivable inch is not my idea of fun.

 

[Homeles]

I was hoping the majority would not. Watching people claw and scratch for every conceivable inch is not my idea of fun.

Arguing with you guys is like playing chess with a pigeon. You knock over the pieces, crap on the board and strut around like you're victorious.

In reality, all you're doing is plugging your ears, closing your eyes and screaming "You get out of here with your facts! You're threatening my beliefs!"

It's quite insulting, really.

 

[Keysplayr]

Arguing with you guys is like playing chess with a pigeon. You knock over the pieces, crap on the board and strut around like you're victorious.

In reality, all you're doing is plugging your ears, closing your eyes and screaming "You get out of here with your facts! You're threatening my beliefs!"

It's quite insulting, really.

But my point was, What exactly IS the point of arguing about it?

It's a dumb argument that should have ended a long time ago. We see AMDs top offering and we see Nvidias top offering. No matter what it was "originally intended to be", It is what it is now.

/Absolutely done.

 

[Homeles]

But my point was, What exactly IS the point of arguing about it?

It's a dumb argument that should have ended a long time ago. We see AMDs top offering and we see Nvidias top offering. No matter what it was "originally intended to be", It is what it is now.

/Absolutely done.

Really, after everything I've stated in here -- it's absolutely pathetic that you still do not understand the point.

 

[AtenRa]

The debate if GK104 was supposed to be the GTX660(middle end) is purely technical and it will not help the consumer in any way.

As of now GTX680(GK104) is NVIDIAs high end card either we like it or not. Just remember, it is the manufacturer that defines which is the High End card and not die size.

But i do agree that GK104 would be the middle end if NVIDIA would have released the GK100 first.

 

[amenx]

But my point was, What exactly IS the point of arguing about it?

It's a dumb argument that should have ended a long time ago. We see AMDs top offering and we see Nvidias top offering. No matter what it was "originally intended to be", It is what it is now.

/Absolutely done.

We would not be having this argument or this thread if it did not imply that Nvidia was somehow 'ahead' in GPU tech. I recall mention of it when kepler first arrived and maybe it was brought up in a few posts back then but I dont think anyone made a thread about it until now. I had thought it was long dead as a topic. But it seems its been eating up some folks and they just couldnt let it rest.

 

[Homeles]

The debate if GK104 was supposed to be the GTX660(middle end) is purely technical and it will not help the consumer in any way.

You mean internet debates don't help make the world a better place? You don't say?

Just remember, it is the manufacturer that defines which is the High End card and not die size.

Do you not know how GPUs work? They're massively parallel. You can only fit so many cores in a certain space. A larger die allows for more units.

 

[AtenRa]

Do you not know how GPUs work? They're massively parallel. You can only fit so many cores in a certain space. A larger die allows for more units.

GF110(GTX580) is larger than GK104(GTX680) and still the GK104(GTX680) is faster ?? now tell me that you know how the GPUs are working :whiste:

High End has nothing to do with die size, it has to do with performance and price. GTX680 is the highest performance and more expensive single chip NVIDIAs Graphics Card and thus it is the High End, no matter how big or small the die is.

 

[lavaheadache]

Really, after everything I've stated in here -- it's absolutely pathetic that you still do not understand the point.

And a dead horse gets beaten some more

 

[boxleitnerb]

GF110(GTX580) is larger than GK104(GTX680) and still the GK104(GTX680) is faster ?? now tell me that you know how the GPUs are working :whiste:

High End has nothing to do with die size, it has to do with performance and price. GTX680 is the highest performance and more expensive single chip NVIDIAs Graphics Card and thus it is the High End, no matter how big or small the die is.

However, compared to the performance plus provided by previous highend cards, it falls flat on its face. And performance has very well to do with die size. You cannot clock a chip too high due to power consumption. Going wider (and bigger) is always more sensible. GK104 doesn't have the characteristics of its predecessors, namely big die size, more power hungry but a good deal more powerful. Imagine if the 7970 and the 680 were 5% faster than their predecessors and cost $500 and nothing faster existed. Would that make them highend, really? Where do you draw the line? Just because something is fastest and most expensive doesn't make it high end. You have to account from where a chip family comes from, not just look at the present and blissfully ignore everything else. Take a hard look at the GTX670 PCB and tell us again that GK104 is highend...