The Greatest American

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: Proletariat
Click Vic

Hitler was teh shite, btw.

Click Proletariat

Why...? I've read that. Are you comparing me with Hitler or something? If so thats pretty offensive and I would so knock you out if this was RL dude.

Wow, funny logic trail you followed there. I liked the Motorcycle Diaries. I also know that it is an effective fictional portrayal of him, based around a loose cobbling of facts. I wouldn't trust a movie like that which is obviously heavily biased towards Che if I wanted to form an opinion about the man. Just like I wouldn't use Mein Kampf in order to form an opinion about Hitler.

Wow you people are so negative dude.

Its not fictional, his friend, the people he met on his journey, the doctors, his parents, the god damn newspaper articles all corroborate his story. The only thing that makes it fictional is the amazing music. You can feel him change when he sees the Communist family who was kicked of their land because they were communist. You can feel him change with every meeting along the way.

The movie is a theatrical production. A dramatization. Anything like that, when coupled with producers with a heavy bias towards Che, will put him in an overbearingly positive light. His journey, his politics, his catharsis. Using that movie to demonstrate what a great man Che (ostensibly) was is a very bad idea.

Edit: By the way, what do you mean by "you people"? Are you somehow lumping me in with Vic? I haven't even said whether or not I think Che is a great man. For all you know, I do. I don't, but that's besides the point.

Yea I guess Robert Redford has a huge bias towards Che :roll: I guess in this modern age going to help lepers in the amazon isn't positive, lol. Makes sense though.

I knew you didn't like Che from the beginning. It was easy to see just from your personality.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
That was a bad link to put up. The criticism part is very large for Wikipedia and it completely destroys the philosophy especially in the Americas, which is what we are talking about currently.

As far as banning things, I don't necessarily see any negative side to banning things like Nazism and Anarchism. They are philosophies of pure hate. If you can find a good reason not to please support them. I prefer not to live like a Caveman (Anarchist) or Monster (Nazi).

What, you think I would put up an unfair link in order to push only my own viewpoint? Tsk. As for "completely destroys," that's just an idiotic comment. Like national healthcare? Dude, I'm stuck with Kaiser, so I already know how bad it would be. I'd rather pay and get quality healthcare than die from "free" healthcare. As for the critics of laissez-faire capitalism, it has never actually existed, not even in the examples given. 20th century US a laissez-faire capitalism? :roll: The Sherman Anti-Trust Act was passed in 1890. Hello? I could go on.
Wikipedia is a publicly-compiled source, so you should always take it with a grain of salt.

Communism is also a philosophy of pure hate. It says your neighbors are greedy and cannot be trusted, therefore it is acceptable to use force to get them to do that which you judge to be morally good. It's the philosophy of the town drunk who thinks the world owes him a living even though he doesn't work. Naturally, you would want to suppress the free speech of those political philosophies most similar to yours. And that you would do so also proves the oft-used statement that leftists only like free speech when they're the ones doing the talking. I personally believe that everyone has the right to free speech, I just don't have to listen to what they have to say, or if I do listen, my own free speech right includes the right to tell them what I think of them.

 

[Jadow]

I am voting for Eric Roberts

 

[K1052]

Would now be a good time to point out that Che would not be considered an American in the context of this thread?

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
I knew you didn't like Che from the beginning. It was easy to see just from your personality.

WHAT!?!?!? I never said I don't like Che. I said I didn't think he was a great man. Sheesh.

I don't think I'm a great man. Do you think I hate myself?

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Proletariat
That was a bad link to put up. The criticism part is very large for Wikipedia and it completely destroys the philosophy especially in the Americas, which is what we are talking about currently.

As far as banning things, I don't necessarily see any negative side to banning things like Nazism and Anarchism. They are philosophies of pure hate. If you can find a good reason not to please support them. I prefer not to live like a Caveman (Anarchist) or Monster (Nazi).

What, you think I would put up an unfair link in order to push only my own viewpoint? Tsk. As for "completely destroys," that's just an idiotic comment. Like national healthcare? Dude, I'm stuck with Kaiser, so I already know how bad it would be. I'd rather pay and get quality healthcare than die from "free" healthcare. As for the critics of laissez-faire capitalism, it has never actually existed, not even in the examples given. 20th century US a laissez-faire capitalism? :roll: The Sherman Anti-Trust Act was passed in 1890. Hello? I could go on.
Wikipedia is a publicly-compiled source, so you should always take it with a grain of salt.

Communism is also a philosophy of pure hate. It says your neighbors are greedy and cannot be trusted, therefore it is acceptable to use force to get them to do that which you judge to be morally good. It's the philosophy of the town drunk who thinks the world owes him a living even though he doesn't work. Naturally, you would want to suppress the free speech of those political philosophies most similar to yours. And that you would do so also proves the oft-used statement that leftists only like free speech when they're the ones doing the talking. I personally believe that everyone has the right to free speech, I just don't have to listen to what they have to say, or if I do listen, my own free speech right includes the right to tell them what I think of them.

Alright I'm getting tired of this.

Your problem with the world is not that it fails to be perfect, but that you think it should be perfect.

Emotion is the antithesis of logic.

You're a pure logician, I understand that.

But understand this: Humans aren't robots. We aren't wired to be completely logic. Logic is good but without emotion you can never really have passion. Without passion you just become a robot. Sitting there debating every possibility while never taking action isn't anything.

I think both of those statements are copouts. With the first you can pretty much sit back and not worry about anything. I don't understand why the author just didn't say "sh!t happens, deal with it".

Look I know sh!t happens; I know life is unfair, I know out of all the people on Earth 3 billion are living on less than 2 dollars a day, and thousands die every day. But why should we let it stay that way? We have free will, the knowledge, the ability to change it. Thats what I'm beginning to realize and thats what Che realized on his journey.

Emotion is necessary to be human. It is what has driven the greatest men on this planet.

 

[judasmachine]

I vote Crazy Horse!

:music:My heroes have always killed cowboys...:music:

although Che is a good canidate.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: K1052
Would now be a good time to point out that Che would not be considered an American in the context of this thread?

Well he should be.

"Even though we are too insignificant to be spokesmen for such a noble cause, we believe, and this journey has only confirmed this belief, that the division of American into unstable and illusory nations is a complete fiction. We are one single mestizo race from Mexico to the Magellan Straits. And so, in an attempt to free ourselves from narrow minded provincialism, I propose a toast to Peru and to a united America. "

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: K1052
Would now be a good time to point out that Che would not be considered an American in the context of this thread?

Well he should be.

"Even though we are too insignificant to be spokesmen for such a noble cause, we believe, and this journey has only confirmed this belief, that the division of American into unstable and illusory nations is a complete fiction. We are one single mestizo race from Mexico to the Magellan Straits. And so, in an attempt to free ourselves from narrow minded provincialism, I propose a toast to Peru and to a united America. "

I have that DVD sitting in my drive right now. The Motorcycle Diaries, that is...

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: judasmachine

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: K1052
Would now be a good time to point out that Che would not be considered an American in the context of this thread?

Well he should be.

"Even though we are too insignificant to be spokesmen for such a noble cause, we believe, and this journey has only confirmed this belief, that the division of American into unstable and illusory nations is a complete fiction. We are one single mestizo race from Mexico to the Magellan Straits. And so, in an attempt to free ourselves from narrow minded provincialism, I propose a toast to Peru and to a united America. "

I have that DVD sitting in my drive right now. The Motorcycle Diaries, that is...

Awesome man, you shouldn't have deleted your People of the Sun excerpt.

Yeah, we better turn tha bass up on this one
Check it, since 1516 minds attacked and overseen
Now crawl amidst the ruins of this empty dream
Wit their borders and boots on top of us
Pullin' knobs on the floor of their toxic metropolis
But how you gonna get what you need ta get?
Tha gut eaters, blood drenched get offensive like Tet
Tha fifth sun sets get back reclaim
Tha spirit of Cuahtemoc alive an untamed
Now face tha funk now blastin' out ya speaker, on tha one Maya, Mexica
That vulture came ta try and steal ya name
But now you got a gun, yeah this is for the people of the sun


You need to speak up more on the boards brother. Don't worry about what people say to you dude.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
Emotion is necessary to be human. It is what has driven the greatest men on this planet.

And the worst as well, I might add. It's one thing to have and feel emotion (which I most certainly do), it's another thing to let emotion control you. Remember the Dark Side and how Yoda says one gets there, eh?

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: judasmachine

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: K1052
Would now be a good time to point out that Che would not be considered an American in the context of this thread?

Well he should be.

"Even though we are too insignificant to be spokesmen for such a noble cause, we believe, and this journey has only confirmed this belief, that the division of American into unstable and illusory nations is a complete fiction. We are one single mestizo race from Mexico to the Magellan Straits. And so, in an attempt to free ourselves from narrow minded provincialism, I propose a toast to Peru and to a united America. "

I have that DVD sitting in my drive right now. The Motorcycle Diaries, that is...

Awesome man, you shouldn't have deleted your People of the Sun excerpt.

Yeah, we better turn tha bass up on this one
Check it, since 1516 minds attacked and overseen
Now crawl amidst the ruins of this empty dream
Wit their borders and boots on top of us
Pullin' knobs on the floor of their toxic metropolis
But how you gonna get what you need ta get?
Tha gut eaters, blood drenched get offensive like Tet
Tha fifth sun sets get back reclaim
Tha spirit of Cuahtemoc alive an untamed
Now face tha funk now blastin' out ya speaker, on tha one Maya, Mexica
That vulture came ta try and steal ya name
But now you got a gun, yeah this is for the people of the sun


You need to speak up more on the boards brother. Don't worry about what people say to you dude.

Your History!

Well I already had the Jello/Mojo Nixon reference I didn't want to overdo it. But right on man!

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Proletariat
Emotion is necessary to be human. It is what has driven the greatest men on this planet.

And the worst as well, I might add. It's one thing to have and feel emotion (which I most certainly do), it's another thing to let emotion control you. Remember the Dark Side and how Yoda says one gets there, eh?

Your sig says emotion is the opposite of logic. Randians and Libertarians follow an almost pure strain of logic.

I have seen it in their personalities and even in their art. Straight square boxes together with no beauty, no human touch. Almost devoid of what true art should be.

Jedi and logic... well... they seem to be more concerned with good than logic. Yea there is the whole balance thing but their goal is to uphold peace and justice. When faced with evil they eliminate it, slaughter it even. What has happened in the Americas and the world has nothing to do with peace and justice. It is almost the complete opposite.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
Your sig says emotion is the opposite of logic. Randians and Libertarians follow an almost pure strain of logic.

I have seen it in their personalities and even in their art. Straight square boxes together with no beauty, no human touch. Almost devoid of what true art should be.

Jedi and logic... well... they seem to be more concerned with good than logic. Yea there is the whole balance thing but their goal is to uphold peace and justice. When faced with evil they eliminate it, slaughter it even. What has happened in the Americas and the world has nothing to do with peace and justice. It is almost the complete opposite.

Peace, justice, and good are all logical. Morality is refraining from doing harm. My sig is a personal reminder to myself not to engage in flame wars.
While I'm no fan of most of the sh!t on a canvas that people call modern art (meaning I don't find that magazine cover you showed to be art, you won't be fitting me into any little boxes), I do have a deep appreciation for art (mostly classical though).
What is not logical is to define evil on your own and then go slaughtering those non-combatants that you fit into your little personal definitions of evil. You can't defeat evil by becoming evil yourself.

What happened in the Americas is absolutely no different than what would have happened had the roles been reversed. Sorry to say. In fact, what brought the Native Americans down was their desire to fight amongst themselves more than anything else but transmitted diseases (which given the lack of any science or medicine at the time cannot really be blamed on anyone or anything except fate, should you prefer).
Regardless, that was the fault of a political system long dead, except for its chronic re-emergences in the forms of fascism and communism. Libertarianism does not allow the exploitation of any non-consenting individual.

As you said, sh!t happens, get over it. The Native Americans could always go back to the way they were living before evil whitey came I suppose. What was the infant mortality rate in those mud huts, 75% before age 5? Subsistence living? Go for it.

Yaknow, the fscked-up thing about America is that we are the first great empire in history noble enough to free our own slaves and conquered, and they still fscking hate us. Given this track record, I imagine the next great empire won't be so foolish.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Proletariat
Your sig says emotion is the opposite of logic. Randians and Libertarians follow an almost pure strain of logic.

I have seen it in their personalities and even in their art. Straight square boxes together with no beauty, no human touch. Almost devoid of what true art should be.

Jedi and logic... well... they seem to be more concerned with good than logic. Yea there is the whole balance thing but their goal is to uphold peace and justice. When faced with evil they eliminate it, slaughter it even. What has happened in the Americas and the world has nothing to do with peace and justice. It is almost the complete opposite.

Peace, justice, and good are all logical. Morality is refraining from doing harm. My sig is a personal reminder to myself not to engage in flame wars.
While I'm no fan of most of the sh!t on a canvas that people call modern art (meaning I don't find that magazine cover you showed to be art, you won't be fitting me into any little boxes), I do have a deep appreciation for art (mostly classical though).
What is not logical is to define evil on your own and then go slaughtering those non-combatants that you fit into your little personal definitions of evil. You can't defeat evil by becoming evil yourself.

What happened in the Americas is absolutely no different than what would have happened had the roles been reversed. Sorry to say. In fact, what brought the Native Americans down was their desire to fight amongst themselves more than anything else but transmitted diseases (which given the lack of any science or medicine at the time cannot really be blamed on anyone or anything except fate, should you prefer).
Regardless, that was the fault of a political system long dead, except for its chronic re-emergences in the forms of fascism and communism. Libertarianism does not allow the exploitation of any non-consenting individual.

As you said, sh!t happens, get over it. The Native Americans could always go back to the way they were living before evil whitey came I suppose. What was the infant mortality rate in those mud huts, 75% before age 5? Subsistence living? Go for it.

Yaknow, the fscked-up thing about America is that we are the first great empire in history noble enough to free our own slaves and conquered, and they still fscking hate us. Given this track record, I imagine the next great empire won't be so foolish.

You aren't even a blood sucking Imperialist like most of the people here. You're just cold man. Cold as hell.

Che never killed civilians. He killed enemy soldiers and traitors by lining them up to a firing squad. I don't know where the hell you are getting your information from dude. Old Declassified CIA documents? If so I wouldn't give them credence. Not only were they racist, they were pathetically biased.

"Che is fairly intellectual for a latino"

Native Americans desire to fight amongst themselves? Yea... of course thats what led to their downfall. Lets just conveniently forget that we completed the most successful genocide in human history (recorded history). There were many unifying movements, but when you are dealing with people as disinterested in the 'logical' concepts of peace, justice and good as the colonistic Imperialist scum from Europe were there is little you can do. How many land deeds had they defaulted on? How many genocidal marches and slaughters did they participate in? How many times did they slaughter women and children? How many times did they lockup, kill and torture freedom fighters. Never once was there a concern for human life. They were, like you, driven by cold logic with a good dash of racial superiority thrown in.

We are the chosen ones, this is our land

But by your standards racial superiority is logical. Whites control everything because they should. I would assume you are a Darwinist as well. And as for the ludicrous assumption that we still do not have slaves; I guess third world wage slaves don't matter to you, and please don't tell me that we are helping them. Forgetting the harm we have done to the Iraqi economy, well-being and infrastructure; just look at the rest of the world. Things are getting worse not better.

Your cracks on the Native American way of life are also crude. Yes they were primitive compared to us, but does that make worse human beings? I suppose we should just go to Africa and Asia and wipe the f!ck out of that scum. It should be our continent by "logic" anyways. Technology does not make a better man. As long as we are on the topic of Star Wars, even Darth Vader espoused:

Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

Yes it was noble to free the slaves. But who did it? Revolutionaries. Abolitionists, freedom fighters, the underground railroad. Not some logical dudes. Not libertarians. In fact libertarians have not done a god damn thing. Just sat around and spewed bile towards almost every other philosophy. The freeing of slaves and a majority of the good things that happened in American history like the civil rights movement were the sole product of leftist movements. And you know that is truth.

 

[judasmachine]

Che is still human and had faults, but legends are legends. Do you believe that George Washington did the whole cherry tree thing? I didn't think so. Let us have our legends, and you can keep yours. All history is 'whitewashed' and we all know it.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
Che is still human and had faults, but legends are legends. Do you believe that George Washington did the whole cherry tree thing? I didn't think so. Let us have our legends, and you can keep yours. All history is 'whitewashed' and we all know it.

No... to the majority of the rich Che was in fact blackwashed. Thats whats so amazing about him. In the country that was his biggest enemy you still see his face on t-shirts, coffee mugs and rock concerts.

There have been good men and there have been bad men. I am confident of that.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: judasmachine
In the country that was his biggest enemy you still see his face on t-shirts, coffee mugs and rock concerts.

Wow Che has gone from being a Political Symbol to just being a Fashion Statement

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: judasmachine
Che is still human and had faults, but legends are legends. Do you believe that George Washington did the whole cherry tree thing? I didn't think so. Let us have our legends, and you can keep yours. All history is 'whitewashed' and we all know it.

No... to the majority of the rich Che was in fact blackwashed. Thats whats so amazing about him. In the country that was his biggest enemy you still see his face on t-shirts, coffee mugs and rock concerts.

There have been good men and there have been bad men. I am confident of that.

True enough.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Wow Che has gone from being a Political Symbol to just being a Fashion Statement

Read the article in my sig.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: judasmachine
In the country that was his biggest enemy you still see his face on t-shirts, coffee mugs and rock concerts.

Wow Che has gone from being a Political Symbol to just being a Fashion Statement

sadly to many you are correct. thus the great satan is adept at sucking the dignity out of everything.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Wow Che has gone from being a Political Symbol to just being a Fashion Statement

Read the article in my sig.

So the Author has a knack for waxing poetically, that still doesn't mean that most of those shirts worn today by America's Youth are nothing more than Fashion Statements.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Wow Che has gone from being a Political Symbol to just being a Fashion Statement

Read the article in my sig.

So the Author has a knack for waxing poetically, that still doesn't mean that most of those shirts worn today by America's Youth are nothing more than Fashion Statements.

*Sigh*

You obviously didn't read it. Thats what he is saying.

But everyone deep down has to realize who he is and what he did.... hopefully.

 

[Vic]

Your assumptions are too much for my taste, Proletariat. I can't have any type of intelligent discussion with someone whose only tactic is ad hominem and dishonest smear.
I do not believe racial superiority is logical, because the idea of races themselves are not logical. We are all human beings. YOU are the one obsessed with race, particularly inciting violence between one race and another.
Nor did I say that Native Americans were worse than Europeans in any way. You assumed that. The living conditions in Europe at the time of the American conquest were no better. In the 1700's in England, 75% of all children born died before age 5.
What I do not want to do is go back to such conditions, while you (it certainly seems) do. There's nothing to idolize about those times -- life was brutal, short, and hard. Not enlightened, not peaceful, none of those lies you've bought into.

 

[Moonbeam]

I guess the greatest American for Jesus would be the least among us.