The Golden Rule

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Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
The majority of men wouldn't mind being sexually assaulted by decent looking girls. But the other way around I think would be less appreciated :p

Again, it's a pretty safe bet that a girl will not enjoy being sexually assaulted. Therefore, you pretty much know her wishes already and will treat her according to them because you would want others to do the same for you.

Exxxxactly, not the same action but according to the persons wishes (which may not be the same as yours).

So the real Golden rule is really treat others as they wish to be treated and they will treat you as you wish to be treated.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,238
146
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
The majority of men wouldn't mind being sexually assaulted by decent looking girls. But the other way around I think would be less appreciated :p

Again, it's a pretty safe bet that a girl will not enjoy being sexually assaulted. Therefore, you pretty much know her wishes already and will treat her according to them because you would want others to do the same for you.

Exxxxactly, not the same action but according to the persons wishes (which may not be the same as yours).

So the real Golden rule is really treat others as they wish to be treated and they will treat you as you wish to be treated.

Not really, because treating others as they would like to be treated IS treating others as you would like to be treated. :)
 

SlickSnake

Diamond Member
May 29, 2007
5,235
2
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: LS21
karma > organized religion

But karma expects rewards.

The true basis of ethical codes should never be the expectation of rewards. Expectation of rewards makes us little more than trained dogs waiting for our reward, be it from this world or a supernatural one, rather than giving us an ethical and logical leg to stand on when treated poorly by others.

Can there be rewards to living an ethical life? Of course. But to expect them is to fail at why one is ethical in the first place.

Live for you, not for the carrot on the stick.

Karma does not expect rewards. Karma will not of itself bring you riches or even luck. The only real reward of positive karma other than a kind of proactive or reactive protection, is the hidden fact it is actively working on everyone, but only a hand full respect karma and understand how it comes into play in all human interactions. Karma works only for those that truly understand how it works, and the rest are just stupidly manipulated by it.

Essentially, the golden rule is about how karma works, in a simplistic nutshell. How you wish to interpret what makes the golden rule work for you is up to the individual, but karma is the active agent that makes the golden rule work.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,238
146
Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: LS21
karma > organized religion

But karma expects rewards.

The true basis of ethical codes should never be the expectation of rewards. Expectation of rewards makes us little more than trained dogs waiting for our reward, be it from this world or a supernatural one, rather than giving us an ethical and logical leg to stand on when treated poorly by others.

Can there be rewards to living an ethical life? Of course. But to expect them is to fail at why one is ethical in the first place.

Live for you, not for the carrot on the stick.

Karma does not expect rewards. Karma will not of itself bring you riches or even luck. The only real reward of positive karma other than a kind of proactive or reactive protection, is the hidden fact it is actively working on everyone, but only a hand full respect karma and understand how it comes into play in all human interactions. Karma works only for those that truly understand how it works, and the rest are just stupidly manipulated by it.

Essentially, the golden rule is about how karma works, in a simplistic nutshell. How you wish to interpret what makes the golden rule work for you is up to the individual, but karma is the active agent that makes the golden rule work.

Sorry. My bad... because when I think of Karma I think of it tied to reincarnation and mysticism. Probably because the origination of Karma IS tied to reincarnation. I now understand that ideas of Karma exist outside of these religions and more closely resemble the Golden Rule when separated from their religious roots. Maybe for future reference we could explain which version of Karma we are speaking of?
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
The majority of men wouldn't mind being sexually assaulted by decent looking girls. But the other way around I think would be less appreciated :p

Again, it's a pretty safe bet that a girl will not enjoy being sexually assaulted. Therefore, you pretty much know her wishes already and will treat her according to them because you would want others to do the same for you.

Exxxxactly, not the same action but according to the persons wishes (which may not be the same as yours).

So the real Golden rule is really treat others as they wish to be treated and they will treat you as you wish to be treated.

Not really, because treating others as they would like to be treated IS treating others as you would like to be treated. :)

This is a semantics discussion now and i'd ask you to think about what you just said, most people in this world are very different and they might not want to be treated in the same way as i do.

The phrase "know thyself and you'll know others" is quite frankly horseshit.

I'd suggest it's better to give them what they want rather than what you'd want for them or for yourself had you been in their position, it enhances the chances of being truly helpful.

No offense, of course.
 

SlickSnake

Diamond Member
May 29, 2007
5,235
2
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: LS21
karma > organized religion

But karma expects rewards.

The true basis of ethical codes should never be the expectation of rewards. Expectation of rewards makes us little more than trained dogs waiting for our reward, be it from this world or a supernatural one, rather than giving us an ethical and logical leg to stand on when treated poorly by others.

Can there be rewards to living an ethical life? Of course. But to expect them is to fail at why one is ethical in the first place.

Live for you, not for the carrot on the stick.

Karma does not expect rewards. Karma will not of itself bring you riches or even luck. The only real reward of positive karma other than a kind of proactive or reactive protection, is the hidden fact it is actively working on everyone, but only a hand full respect karma and understand how it comes into play in all human interactions. Karma works only for those that truly understand how it works, and the rest are just stupidly manipulated by it.

Essentially, the golden rule is about how karma works, in a simplistic nutshell. How you wish to interpret what makes the golden rule work for you is up to the individual, but karma is the active agent that makes the golden rule work.

Sorry. My bad... because when I think of Karma I think of it tied to reincarnation and mysticism. Probably because the origination of Karma IS tied to reincarnation. I now understand that ideas of Karma exist outside of these religions and more closely resemble the Golden Rule when separated from their religious roots. Maybe for future reference we could explain which version of Karma we are speaking of?

Religious ideas of Karma vary widely. For my personal use and observation, I use a more general view of karma. However, I also do believe in reincarnation, but I do not affiliate my personal beliefs with any one religion. And the karma aspect does ultimately play a major role in this belief.

Wiki, while not my favorite thing to quote, has an extensive breakdown on the multitude of beliefs about karma and its effects:

KARMA

I was just trying to clarify that understanding karma is its own reward, so to speak, and not necessarily expecting rewards by following it.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
The majority of men wouldn't mind being sexually assaulted by decent looking girls. But the other way around I think would be less appreciated :p

Again, it's a pretty safe bet that a girl will not enjoy being sexually assaulted. Therefore, you pretty much know her wishes already and will treat her according to them because you would want others to do the same for you.

Exxxxactly, not the same action but according to the persons wishes (which may not be the same as yours).

So the real Golden rule is really treat others as they wish to be treated and they will treat you as you wish to be treated.

Not really, because treating others as they would like to be treated IS treating others as you would like to be treated. :)

Unless either of you is a masochist :D
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
John, let's put it this way. Treat people respectfully and nicely and you'll find it more easily comes right back to you.

Who doesn't want to be treated nicely and respectfully? Maybe someone that doesn't think they deserve that treatment or it's someone that doesn't love themselves. Deep down though, I think we all want to be treated nicely.

And just because someone doesn't want to be treated nicely doesn't mean I am going to give them what they want. I still want to treat them like I want to be treated. But if they throw out daggers FIRST I have no choice but to deflect them.

No offense, of course.

 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,238
146
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
The majority of men wouldn't mind being sexually assaulted by decent looking girls. But the other way around I think would be less appreciated :p

Again, it's a pretty safe bet that a girl will not enjoy being sexually assaulted. Therefore, you pretty much know her wishes already and will treat her according to them because you would want others to do the same for you.

Exxxxactly, not the same action but according to the persons wishes (which may not be the same as yours).

So the real Golden rule is really treat others as they wish to be treated and they will treat you as you wish to be treated.

Not really, because treating others as they would like to be treated IS treating others as you would like to be treated. :)

This is a semantics discussion now and i'd ask you to think about what you just said, most people in this world are very different and they might not want to be treated in the same way as i do.

The phrase "know thyself and you'll know others" is quite frankly horseshit.

I'd suggest it's better to give them what they want rather than what you'd want for them or for yourself had you been in their position, it enhances the chances of being truly helpful.

No offense, of course.

You are completely misunderstanding and over simplifying the ethic refusing to take into account what one does when they KNOW the preferences of another.

Until you know someone, you cannot know how exactly they would like to be treated so you simply treat them with the respect and kindness you would appreciate from others. As you do get to know them, you can adjust your behavior to their preferences JUST as you would like others to do for you as they get to know you.

In the end, you are treating them with the same consideration you would wish others treat you with.

This is far from semantics and just plain common sense.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
The majority of men wouldn't mind being sexually assaulted by decent looking girls. But the other way around I think would be less appreciated :p

Again, it's a pretty safe bet that a girl will not enjoy being sexually assaulted. Therefore, you pretty much know her wishes already and will treat her according to them because you would want others to do the same for you.

Exxxxactly, not the same action but according to the persons wishes (which may not be the same as yours).

So the real Golden rule is really treat others as they wish to be treated and they will treat you as you wish to be treated.

Not really, because treating others as they would like to be treated IS treating others as you would like to be treated. :)

This is a semantics discussion now and i'd ask you to think about what you just said, most people in this world are very different and they might not want to be treated in the same way as i do.

The phrase "know thyself and you'll know others" is quite frankly horseshit.

I'd suggest it's better to give them what they want rather than what you'd want for them or for yourself had you been in their position, it enhances the chances of being truly helpful.

No offense, of course.

You are completely misunderstanding and over simplifying the ethic refusing to take into account what one does when they KNOW the preferences of another.

Until you know someone, you cannot know how exactly they would like to be treated so you simply treat them with the respect and kindness you would appreciate from others. As you do get to know them, you can adjust your behavior to their preferences JUST as you would like others to do for you as they get to know you.

In the end, you are treating them with the same consideration you would wish others treat you with.

This is far from semantics and just plain common sense.

You pretty much CAN interpret directly if what you do is right or wrong, in some cultures trying to shake someones hand is an aggressive act, as in the one i am in right now.

Respect and kindness is good, but it's not as universal as you might think.

Heh, i overcomplicated it now instead, didn't i.

Crap, just ignore it.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,238
146
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
The majority of men wouldn't mind being sexually assaulted by decent looking girls. But the other way around I think would be less appreciated :p

Again, it's a pretty safe bet that a girl will not enjoy being sexually assaulted. Therefore, you pretty much know her wishes already and will treat her according to them because you would want others to do the same for you.

Exxxxactly, not the same action but according to the persons wishes (which may not be the same as yours).

So the real Golden rule is really treat others as they wish to be treated and they will treat you as you wish to be treated.

Not really, because treating others as they would like to be treated IS treating others as you would like to be treated. :)

This is a semantics discussion now and i'd ask you to think about what you just said, most people in this world are very different and they might not want to be treated in the same way as i do.

The phrase "know thyself and you'll know others" is quite frankly horseshit.

I'd suggest it's better to give them what they want rather than what you'd want for them or for yourself had you been in their position, it enhances the chances of being truly helpful.

No offense, of course.

You are completely misunderstanding and over simplifying the ethic refusing to take into account what one does when they KNOW the preferences of another.

Until you know someone, you cannot know how exactly they would like to be treated so you simply treat them with the respect and kindness you would appreciate from others. As you do get to know them, you can adjust your behavior to their preferences JUST as you would like others to do for you as they get to know you.

In the end, you are treating them with the same consideration you would wish others treat you with.

This is far from semantics and just plain common sense.

You pretty much CAN interpret directly if what you do is right or wrong, in some cultures trying to shake someones hand is an aggressive act, as in the one i am in right now.

Respect and kindness is good, but it's not as universal as you might think.

Heh, i overcomplicated it now instead, didn't i.

Crap, just ignore it.

LOL!

Well, I would say when dealing cross culture, and you know before hand that you will be doing so, the Golden Rule common sense would tell you to do some reading up on cultural norms so such transgressions would not take place. Also, the world is such a small place now that thankfully most cultures understand the differences between them and are not so inclined to think you are intentionally trying to offend them.

In the end, one can only do the best they can do with it. You're not omniscient and no one expects you to be. :)
 

Jack Ryan

Golden Member
Jun 11, 2004
1,353
0
0
Star trek already addressed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tellarite

"They consider normal polite conversation to be a grave insult; it is recommended to be insulting and crude when speaking to a Tellarite."

The golden rule is fundamentally flawed as it is a selfish view of the world, that the way you want to be treated is the right way for everyone.

While your intentions may be noble by following the golden rule every time, it doesn't mean it is the right way to treat someone every time.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,238
146
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Star trek already addressed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tellarite

"They consider normal polite conversation to be a grave insult; it is recommended to be insulting and crude when speaking to a Tellarite."

The golden rule is fundamentally flawed as it is a selfish view of the world, that the way you want to be treated is the right way for everyone.

While your intentions may be noble by following the golden rule every time, it doesn't mean it is the right way to treat someone every time.

It's rather amazing to me how hard people try to create a flaw that really doesn't exist. We've covered this over and over and over again.
 

Jack Ryan

Golden Member
Jun 11, 2004
1,353
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Star trek already addressed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tellarite

"They consider normal polite conversation to be a grave insult; it is recommended to be insulting and crude when speaking to a Tellarite."

The golden rule is fundamentally flawed as it is a selfish view of the world, that the way you want to be treated is the right way for everyone.

While your intentions may be noble by following the golden rule every time, it doesn't mean it is the right way to treat someone every time.

It's rather amazing to me how hard people try to create a flaw that really doesn't exist. We've covered this over and over and over again.

It is rather amazing how you haven't shown a valid response to this (over and over and over again). TRYING to do the right thing in your mind doesn't equal DOING the right thing for the other person.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,238
146
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Star trek already addressed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tellarite

"They consider normal polite conversation to be a grave insult; it is recommended to be insulting and crude when speaking to a Tellarite."

The golden rule is fundamentally flawed as it is a selfish view of the world, that the way you want to be treated is the right way for everyone.

While your intentions may be noble by following the golden rule every time, it doesn't mean it is the right way to treat someone every time.

It's rather amazing to me how hard people try to create a flaw that really doesn't exist. We've covered this over and over and over again.

It is rather amazing how you haven't shown a valid response to this (over and over and over again). TRYING to do the right thing in your mind doesn't equal DOING the right thing for the other person.

Yes, yes it does.

This answer covers it perfectly:

"If you don't know Bob, ALL you can do is treat him as you would wish to be treated. As you get to know Bob, he will let you know how he wishes to be treated and... GUESS WHAT??? You will treat him according to his wishes because... wait for it... that's how you would wish people to treat you."

Why? Because it's far better than being a rude little prick to everyone.

You see, while you sit and make excuses as to why ethics don't work, others are out there trying, and trying to make the world a far better place. I've never seen a war started by someone trying to be ethical, and failing. I've never seen any issue started by someone trying to be ethical, and someone else taking offense to it.

I have answered this imaginary issue over and over again. If you choose to use it as an excuse to treat others poorly rather than always as you would like to be treated, so be it.
 

Jack Ryan

Golden Member
Jun 11, 2004
1,353
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Star trek already addressed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tellarite

"They consider normal polite conversation to be a grave insult; it is recommended to be insulting and crude when speaking to a Tellarite."

The golden rule is fundamentally flawed as it is a selfish view of the world, that the way you want to be treated is the right way for everyone.

While your intentions may be noble by following the golden rule every time, it doesn't mean it is the right way to treat someone every time.

It's rather amazing to me how hard people try to create a flaw that really doesn't exist. We've covered this over and over and over again.

It is rather amazing how you haven't shown a valid response to this (over and over and over again). TRYING to do the right thing in your mind doesn't equal DOING the right thing for the other person.

Yes, yes it does.

This answer covers it perfectly:

"If you don't know Bob, ALL you can do is treat him as you would wish to be treated. As you get to know Bob, he will let you know how he wishes to be treated and... GUESS WHAT??? You will treat him according to his wishes because... wait for it... that's how you would wish people to treat you."

Why? Because it's far better than being a rude little prick to everyone.

You see, while you sit and make excuses as to why ethics don't work, others are out there trying, and trying to make the world a far better place. I've never seen a war started by someone trying to be ethical, and failing. I've never seen any issue started by someone trying to be ethical, and someone else taking offense to it.

I have answered this imaginary issue over and over again. If you choose to use it as an excuse to treat others poorly rather than always as you would like to be treated, so be it.

Lets talk about Bob.

You don't know Bob.
You treat Bob like you want to be treated.
Bob takes offense to this (for whatever reason)
You did not treat Bob "right".

Can't make it any simpler for you. You didn't know how to treat Bob so you ASSUMED the best way was to treat him the way you wanted to be treated, which sometimes is just flat out wrong.

Your type is easy to spot. Know-it-all who will "discuss" anything, yet listen to no one. If you ever managed people you would know rather quickly that everyone needs to be treated differently, especially people from other cultures.

You may sleep better at night because you think there was nothing else you could have done except treat Bob like you want to be treated, but that doesn't make the act of offending him right.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,238
146
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Star trek already addressed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tellarite

"They consider normal polite conversation to be a grave insult; it is recommended to be insulting and crude when speaking to a Tellarite."

The golden rule is fundamentally flawed as it is a selfish view of the world, that the way you want to be treated is the right way for everyone.

While your intentions may be noble by following the golden rule every time, it doesn't mean it is the right way to treat someone every time.

It's rather amazing to me how hard people try to create a flaw that really doesn't exist. We've covered this over and over and over again.

It is rather amazing how you haven't shown a valid response to this (over and over and over again). TRYING to do the right thing in your mind doesn't equal DOING the right thing for the other person.

Yes, yes it does.

This answer covers it perfectly:

"If you don't know Bob, ALL you can do is treat him as you would wish to be treated. As you get to know Bob, he will let you know how he wishes to be treated and... GUESS WHAT??? You will treat him according to his wishes because... wait for it... that's how you would wish people to treat you."

Why? Because it's far better than being a rude little prick to everyone.

You see, while you sit and make excuses as to why ethics don't work, others are out there trying, and trying to make the world a far better place. I've never seen a war started by someone trying to be ethical, and failing. I've never seen any issue started by someone trying to be ethical, and someone else taking offense to it.

I have answered this imaginary issue over and over again. If you choose to use it as an excuse to treat others poorly rather than always as you would like to be treated, so be it.

Lets talk about Bob.

You don't know Bob.
You treat Bob like you want to be treated.
Bob takes offense to this (for whatever reason)
You did not treat Bob "right".

Can't make it any simpler for you. You didn't know how to treat Bob so you ASSUMED the best way was to treat him the way you wanted to be treated, which sometimes is just flat out wrong.

Your type is easy to spot. Know-it-all who will "discuss" anything, yet listen to no one. If you ever managed people you would know rather quickly that everyone needs to be treated differently, especially people from other cultures.

You may sleep better at night because you think there was nothing else you could have done except treat Bob like you want to be treated, but that doesn't make the act of offending him right.

All you can do is, quite simply, the best you can do. That's it. No one is omniscient and THAT is what you are demanding in an ethical code. Well, welcome to reality.

And your example is just moot in the real world. When have you seen this happen? Because in my 41 years alive, I have NEVER seen this happen.
 

Muadib

Lifer
May 30, 2000
17,978
861
126
I see why you are Elite. :thumbsup:

I've tried to live by this for most of my life. Trust me, it hasn't been easy.
 

Jack Ryan

Golden Member
Jun 11, 2004
1,353
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Star trek already addressed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tellarite

"They consider normal polite conversation to be a grave insult; it is recommended to be insulting and crude when speaking to a Tellarite."

The golden rule is fundamentally flawed as it is a selfish view of the world, that the way you want to be treated is the right way for everyone.

While your intentions may be noble by following the golden rule every time, it doesn't mean it is the right way to treat someone every time.

It's rather amazing to me how hard people try to create a flaw that really doesn't exist. We've covered this over and over and over again.

It is rather amazing how you haven't shown a valid response to this (over and over and over again). TRYING to do the right thing in your mind doesn't equal DOING the right thing for the other person.

Yes, yes it does.

This answer covers it perfectly:

"If you don't know Bob, ALL you can do is treat him as you would wish to be treated. As you get to know Bob, he will let you know how he wishes to be treated and... GUESS WHAT??? You will treat him according to his wishes because... wait for it... that's how you would wish people to treat you."

Why? Because it's far better than being a rude little prick to everyone.

You see, while you sit and make excuses as to why ethics don't work, others are out there trying, and trying to make the world a far better place. I've never seen a war started by someone trying to be ethical, and failing. I've never seen any issue started by someone trying to be ethical, and someone else taking offense to it.

I have answered this imaginary issue over and over again. If you choose to use it as an excuse to treat others poorly rather than always as you would like to be treated, so be it.

Lets talk about Bob.

You don't know Bob.
You treat Bob like you want to be treated.
Bob takes offense to this (for whatever reason)
You did not treat Bob "right".

Can't make it any simpler for you. You didn't know how to treat Bob so you ASSUMED the best way was to treat him the way you wanted to be treated, which sometimes is just flat out wrong.

Your type is easy to spot. Know-it-all who will "discuss" anything, yet listen to no one. If you ever managed people you would know rather quickly that everyone needs to be treated differently, especially people from other cultures.

You may sleep better at night because you think there was nothing else you could have done except treat Bob like you want to be treated, but that doesn't make the act of offending him right.

All you can do is, quite simply, the best you can do. That's it. No one is omniscient and THAT is what you are demanding in an ethical code. Well, welcome to reality.

And your example is just moot in the real world. When have you seen this happen? Because in my 41 years alive, I have NEVER seen this happen.

I imagine that after 41 years you have seen everything there is to see and that it is a waste of time for me to even mention the first example that popped into my head. Maybe someone else would like to comment.

-Put yourself in an office setting. You like it when the office gets together and has a Christmas party or celebrates someones birthday. You order a cake, have a little party, and one person doesn't seem interested in participating. You love parties and would like to be included in them so you treat everyone else like they want to be engaged in office parties. This person is embarrassed and put on the spot for why they don't participate.

Turns out this person is a Jehovah's Witness and doesn't celebrate Christmas or birthdays and is now upset that they had to share this information (or chose not to and is now the subject of behind the back talking by others in the office).

You chose to treat them like you would (love office parties) but it turns out you made them feel uncomfortable. Which in my world is a failure in human relations.

This is a real life example that occurred in my place of business. Anytime that you interact (in the flesh) with people this is bound to happen because people continue to think that the way they want the world to be is the way it should be for everyone.

Omniscience has nothing to do with it. It makes YOU feel better that you treated people the way you wanted to be treated. Thats great for YOU. This makes it selfish (which you have mentioned) and flawed (many people's opinions, not just my own). Your actions are for you, not for the other person.

I believe that there is no Golden Rule, or that the Golden Rule is that there is no Golden Rule.
 

ruu

Senior member
Oct 24, 2008
464
1
0
I think that the wording of the Golden Rule is perhaps a bit imprecise.

The Golden Rule doesn't mean that you should do a certain thing to/for/with another person in the exact same manner as you would have it done to/for/with you. The Golden Rule means that you should do a certain thing to/for/with another person with the same intent as you would have it done to/for/with you.

The Golden Rule is not perfect; it does not assure proper results the first time applied. However, it does ensure better results the more it is applied. As time stretches on into infinity, constant application of the Golden Rule will almost certainly guarantee that the proper results are achieved.

(Insert geeky reference to asymptotes and limit notation.)

Let's look at Jack Ryan's example here:

Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Put yourself in an office setting. You like it when the office gets together and has a Christmas party or celebrates someones birthday. You order a cake, have a little party, and one person doesn't seem interested in participating. You love parties and would like to be included in them so you treat everyone else like they want to be engaged in office parties. This person is embarrassed and put on the spot for why they don't participate.

Turns out this person is a Jehovah's Witness and doesn't celebrate Christmas or birthdays and is now upset that they had to share this information (or chose not to and is now the subject of behind the back talking by others in the office).

You chose to treat them like you would (love office parties) but it turns out you made them feel uncomfortable. Which in my world is a failure in human relations.

Clearly the Golden Rule, applied here, missed its mark. But one must recognize how it missed---it didn't say, "Because you want an office party, you should throw an office party and assume that everyone wants one because you want one." Instead, it said, "You want to create a social gathering that will make everyone feel included, because if someone else threw a party, you would want to be included; too---therefore, include everyone."

There's a big difference there; the Golden Rule emphasizes the intent, not the means. The intent was good; it just so happened that the means (Christmas-themed) didn't apply for everyone. Oops. Yes, the Rule can screw up.

The Golden Rule then will probably say, "When a screw-up occurs, make amends, because if someone screwed up something for you, you would like them to make amends." That might mean apologizing to the co-worker for one's own insensitivity, banning Christmas parties, giving him monetary compensation---whatever. The Rule doesn't dictate what you should do; the Rule offers a guideline for the spirit under which you perform an action.

Suppose then that the Jehovah's Witness co-worker is then further embarrassed by your apology. The Golden Rule might then say, "If your efforts to correct the situation simply make it worse, then stop trying, because if it were you in this situation and someone kept trying to make things better only made them worse, you would like them to stop trying." You then leave the co-worker alone. Maybe he never forgives you, but at least you aren't making his life more miserable.

I absolutely agree with Amused that all you can do is the best you can do. There is no such thing as a rule that will tell you the exact ethical thing to do under every circumstance; that's impossible. But the Golden Rule is perhaps the most probable way to assure that a very, very large percentage of the time, the ethical thing is done.

One bad application doesn't mean that the rule is crap. In the long run, the Golden Rule is the best that anyone's got.

Incidentally, I do think Kant worded this whole thing better than did Jesus or Buddha or the Jains, but Kant is quite long-winded and harder to quote sensibly. ;)



Cliffs: Always have some empathy.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,238
146
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Star trek already addressed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tellarite

"They consider normal polite conversation to be a grave insult; it is recommended to be insulting and crude when speaking to a Tellarite."

The golden rule is fundamentally flawed as it is a selfish view of the world, that the way you want to be treated is the right way for everyone.

While your intentions may be noble by following the golden rule every time, it doesn't mean it is the right way to treat someone every time.

It's rather amazing to me how hard people try to create a flaw that really doesn't exist. We've covered this over and over and over again.

It is rather amazing how you haven't shown a valid response to this (over and over and over again). TRYING to do the right thing in your mind doesn't equal DOING the right thing for the other person.

Yes, yes it does.

This answer covers it perfectly:

"If you don't know Bob, ALL you can do is treat him as you would wish to be treated. As you get to know Bob, he will let you know how he wishes to be treated and... GUESS WHAT??? You will treat him according to his wishes because... wait for it... that's how you would wish people to treat you."

Why? Because it's far better than being a rude little prick to everyone.

You see, while you sit and make excuses as to why ethics don't work, others are out there trying, and trying to make the world a far better place. I've never seen a war started by someone trying to be ethical, and failing. I've never seen any issue started by someone trying to be ethical, and someone else taking offense to it.

I have answered this imaginary issue over and over again. If you choose to use it as an excuse to treat others poorly rather than always as you would like to be treated, so be it.

Lets talk about Bob.

You don't know Bob.
You treat Bob like you want to be treated.
Bob takes offense to this (for whatever reason)
You did not treat Bob "right".

Can't make it any simpler for you. You didn't know how to treat Bob so you ASSUMED the best way was to treat him the way you wanted to be treated, which sometimes is just flat out wrong.

Your type is easy to spot. Know-it-all who will "discuss" anything, yet listen to no one. If you ever managed people you would know rather quickly that everyone needs to be treated differently, especially people from other cultures.

You may sleep better at night because you think there was nothing else you could have done except treat Bob like you want to be treated, but that doesn't make the act of offending him right.

All you can do is, quite simply, the best you can do. That's it. No one is omniscient and THAT is what you are demanding in an ethical code. Well, welcome to reality.

And your example is just moot in the real world. When have you seen this happen? Because in my 41 years alive, I have NEVER seen this happen.

I imagine that after 41 years you have seen everything there is to see and that it is a waste of time for me to even mention the first example that popped into my head. Maybe someone else would like to comment.

-Put yourself in an office setting. You like it when the office gets together and has a Christmas party or celebrates someones birthday. You order a cake, have a little party, and one person doesn't seem interested in participating. You love parties and would like to be included in them so you treat everyone else like they want to be engaged in office parties. This person is embarrassed and put on the spot for why they don't participate.

Turns out this person is a Jehovah's Witness and doesn't celebrate Christmas or birthdays and is now upset that they had to share this information (or chose not to and is now the subject of behind the back talking by others in the office).

You chose to treat them like you would (love office parties) but it turns out you made them feel uncomfortable. Which in my world is a failure in human relations.

This is a real life example that occurred in my place of business. Anytime that you interact (in the flesh) with people this is bound to happen because people continue to think that the way they want the world to be is the way it should be for everyone.

Omniscience has nothing to do with it. It makes YOU feel better that you treated people the way you wanted to be treated. Thats great for YOU. This makes it selfish (which you have mentioned) and flawed (many people's opinions, not just my own). Your actions are for you, not for the other person.

I believe that there is no Golden Rule, or that the Golden Rule is that there is no Golden Rule.

::: sigh ::: I explained your office setting crap over and over. You will KNOW your coworkers after time and treat them accordingly. It really IS that easy. Your example simply shows someone being PUSHY. No one likes a pushy person.

Fine. I see your opinion on ethics. Just know that you haven't poked a hole in anything simply because you fail at adaptation is not the fault of the rule, but your own.
 

Jack Ryan

Golden Member
Jun 11, 2004
1,353
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Originally posted by: ruu
I think that the wording of the Golden Rule is perhaps a bit imprecise.

The Golden Rule doesn't mean that you should do a certain thing to/for/with another person in the exact same manner as you would have it done to/for/with you. The Golden Rule means that you should do a certain thing to/for/with another person with the same intent as you would have it done to/for/with you.

The Golden Rule is not perfect; it does not assure proper results the first time applied. However, it does ensure better results the more it is applied. As time stretches on into infinity, constant application of the Golden Rule will almost certainly guarantee that the proper results are achieved.

(Insert geeky reference to asymptotes and limit notation.)

Let's look at Jack Ryan's example here:

Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Put yourself in an office setting. You like it when the office gets together and has a Christmas party or celebrates someones birthday. You order a cake, have a little party, and one person doesn't seem interested in participating. You love parties and would like to be included in them so you treat everyone else like they want to be engaged in office parties. This person is embarrassed and put on the spot for why they don't participate.

Turns out this person is a Jehovah's Witness and doesn't celebrate Christmas or birthdays and is now upset that they had to share this information (or chose not to and is now the subject of behind the back talking by others in the office).

You chose to treat them like you would (love office parties) but it turns out you made them feel uncomfortable. Which in my world is a failure in human relations.

Clearly the Golden Rule, applied here, missed its mark. But one must recognize how it missed---it didn't say, "Because you want an office party, you should throw an office party and assume that everyone wants one because you want one." Instead, it said, "You want to create a social gathering that will make everyone feel included, because if someone else threw a party, you would want to be included; too---therefore, include everyone."

There's a big difference there; the Golden Rule emphasizes the intent, not the means. The intent was good; it just so happened that the means (Christmas-themed) didn't apply for everyone. Oops. Yes, the Rule can screw up.

The Golden Rule then will probably say, "When a screw-up occurs, make amends, because if someone screwed up something for you, you would like them to make amends." That might mean apologizing to the co-worker for one's own insensitivity, banning Christmas parties, giving him monetary compensation---whatever. The Rule doesn't dictate what you should do; the Rule offers a guideline for the spirit under which you perform an action.

Suppose then that the Jehovah's Witness co-worker is then further embarrassed by your apology. The Golden Rule might then say, "If your efforts to correct the situation simply make it worse, then stop trying, because if it were you in this situation and someone kept trying to make things better only made them worse, you would like them to stop trying." You then leave the co-worker alone. Maybe he never forgives you, but at least you aren't making his life more miserable.

I absolutely agree with Amused that all you can do is the best you can do. There is no such thing as a rule that will tell you the exact ethical thing to do under every circumstance; that's impossible. But the Golden Rule is perhaps the most probable way to assure that a very, very large percentage of the time, the ethical thing is done.

One bad application doesn't mean that the rule is crap. In the long run, the Golden Rule is the best that anyone's got.

Incidentally, I do think Kant worded this whole thing better than did Jesus or Buddha or the Jains, but Kant is quite long-winded and harder to quote sensibly. ;)



Cliffs: Always have some empathy.

Excellent explanation.

I disagree, however, that the because the intent was good that the rule still holds true.

Many clueless people don't intend to be idiots or rude, but the fact is, they are. They could be "living by the Golden Rule", just their Golden Rule doesn't jive with someone else's.

From the perspective of one individual, I can see how they would feel good about themselves for living by the rule. But as a third party, I see this logic breaking down rather quickly.

If life only was about intent rather than results.
 

Jack Ryan

Golden Member
Jun 11, 2004
1,353
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Star trek already addressed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tellarite

"They consider normal polite conversation to be a grave insult; it is recommended to be insulting and crude when speaking to a Tellarite."

The golden rule is fundamentally flawed as it is a selfish view of the world, that the way you want to be treated is the right way for everyone.

While your intentions may be noble by following the golden rule every time, it doesn't mean it is the right way to treat someone every time.

It's rather amazing to me how hard people try to create a flaw that really doesn't exist. We've covered this over and over and over again.

It is rather amazing how you haven't shown a valid response to this (over and over and over again). TRYING to do the right thing in your mind doesn't equal DOING the right thing for the other person.

Yes, yes it does.

This answer covers it perfectly:

"If you don't know Bob, ALL you can do is treat him as you would wish to be treated. As you get to know Bob, he will let you know how he wishes to be treated and... GUESS WHAT??? You will treat him according to his wishes because... wait for it... that's how you would wish people to treat you."

Why? Because it's far better than being a rude little prick to everyone.

You see, while you sit and make excuses as to why ethics don't work, others are out there trying, and trying to make the world a far better place. I've never seen a war started by someone trying to be ethical, and failing. I've never seen any issue started by someone trying to be ethical, and someone else taking offense to it.

I have answered this imaginary issue over and over again. If you choose to use it as an excuse to treat others poorly rather than always as you would like to be treated, so be it.

Lets talk about Bob.

You don't know Bob.
You treat Bob like you want to be treated.
Bob takes offense to this (for whatever reason)
You did not treat Bob "right".

Can't make it any simpler for you. You didn't know how to treat Bob so you ASSUMED the best way was to treat him the way you wanted to be treated, which sometimes is just flat out wrong.

Your type is easy to spot. Know-it-all who will "discuss" anything, yet listen to no one. If you ever managed people you would know rather quickly that everyone needs to be treated differently, especially people from other cultures.

You may sleep better at night because you think there was nothing else you could have done except treat Bob like you want to be treated, but that doesn't make the act of offending him right.

All you can do is, quite simply, the best you can do. That's it. No one is omniscient and THAT is what you are demanding in an ethical code. Well, welcome to reality.

And your example is just moot in the real world. When have you seen this happen? Because in my 41 years alive, I have NEVER seen this happen.

I imagine that after 41 years you have seen everything there is to see and that it is a waste of time for me to even mention the first example that popped into my head. Maybe someone else would like to comment.

-Put yourself in an office setting. You like it when the office gets together and has a Christmas party or celebrates someones birthday. You order a cake, have a little party, and one person doesn't seem interested in participating. You love parties and would like to be included in them so you treat everyone else like they want to be engaged in office parties. This person is embarrassed and put on the spot for why they don't participate.

Turns out this person is a Jehovah's Witness and doesn't celebrate Christmas or birthdays and is now upset that they had to share this information (or chose not to and is now the subject of behind the back talking by others in the office).

You chose to treat them like you would (love office parties) but it turns out you made them feel uncomfortable. Which in my world is a failure in human relations.

This is a real life example that occurred in my place of business. Anytime that you interact (in the flesh) with people this is bound to happen because people continue to think that the way they want the world to be is the way it should be for everyone.

Omniscience has nothing to do with it. It makes YOU feel better that you treated people the way you wanted to be treated. Thats great for YOU. This makes it selfish (which you have mentioned) and flawed (many people's opinions, not just my own). Your actions are for you, not for the other person.

I believe that there is no Golden Rule, or that the Golden Rule is that there is no Golden Rule.

::: sigh ::: I explained your office setting crap over and over. You will KNOW your coworkers after time and treat them accordingly. It really IS that easy. Your example simply shows someone being PUSHY. No one likes a pushy person.

Fine. I see your opinion on ethics. Just know that you haven't poked a hole in anything simply because you fail at adaptation is not the fault of the rule, but your own.

I can tell you with certainty I have met a dozen people just like you. Your logic is best, everyone else is a moron, when you don't get your way you will resort to immature (especially for 41) smart ass comments, and if that doesn't work you will try to demean or insult the person.

You are what we call an Asshole. Here is a book for you as you quest to better yourself.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,238
146
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Star trek already addressed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tellarite

"They consider normal polite conversation to be a grave insult; it is recommended to be insulting and crude when speaking to a Tellarite."

The golden rule is fundamentally flawed as it is a selfish view of the world, that the way you want to be treated is the right way for everyone.

While your intentions may be noble by following the golden rule every time, it doesn't mean it is the right way to treat someone every time.

It's rather amazing to me how hard people try to create a flaw that really doesn't exist. We've covered this over and over and over again.

It is rather amazing how you haven't shown a valid response to this (over and over and over again). TRYING to do the right thing in your mind doesn't equal DOING the right thing for the other person.

Yes, yes it does.

This answer covers it perfectly:

"If you don't know Bob, ALL you can do is treat him as you would wish to be treated. As you get to know Bob, he will let you know how he wishes to be treated and... GUESS WHAT??? You will treat him according to his wishes because... wait for it... that's how you would wish people to treat you."

Why? Because it's far better than being a rude little prick to everyone.

You see, while you sit and make excuses as to why ethics don't work, others are out there trying, and trying to make the world a far better place. I've never seen a war started by someone trying to be ethical, and failing. I've never seen any issue started by someone trying to be ethical, and someone else taking offense to it.

I have answered this imaginary issue over and over again. If you choose to use it as an excuse to treat others poorly rather than always as you would like to be treated, so be it.

Lets talk about Bob.

You don't know Bob.
You treat Bob like you want to be treated.
Bob takes offense to this (for whatever reason)
You did not treat Bob "right".

Can't make it any simpler for you. You didn't know how to treat Bob so you ASSUMED the best way was to treat him the way you wanted to be treated, which sometimes is just flat out wrong.

Your type is easy to spot. Know-it-all who will "discuss" anything, yet listen to no one. If you ever managed people you would know rather quickly that everyone needs to be treated differently, especially people from other cultures.

You may sleep better at night because you think there was nothing else you could have done except treat Bob like you want to be treated, but that doesn't make the act of offending him right.

All you can do is, quite simply, the best you can do. That's it. No one is omniscient and THAT is what you are demanding in an ethical code. Well, welcome to reality.

And your example is just moot in the real world. When have you seen this happen? Because in my 41 years alive, I have NEVER seen this happen.

I imagine that after 41 years you have seen everything there is to see and that it is a waste of time for me to even mention the first example that popped into my head. Maybe someone else would like to comment.

-Put yourself in an office setting. You like it when the office gets together and has a Christmas party or celebrates someones birthday. You order a cake, have a little party, and one person doesn't seem interested in participating. You love parties and would like to be included in them so you treat everyone else like they want to be engaged in office parties. This person is embarrassed and put on the spot for why they don't participate.

Turns out this person is a Jehovah's Witness and doesn't celebrate Christmas or birthdays and is now upset that they had to share this information (or chose not to and is now the subject of behind the back talking by others in the office).

You chose to treat them like you would (love office parties) but it turns out you made them feel uncomfortable. Which in my world is a failure in human relations.

This is a real life example that occurred in my place of business. Anytime that you interact (in the flesh) with people this is bound to happen because people continue to think that the way they want the world to be is the way it should be for everyone.

Omniscience has nothing to do with it. It makes YOU feel better that you treated people the way you wanted to be treated. Thats great for YOU. This makes it selfish (which you have mentioned) and flawed (many people's opinions, not just my own). Your actions are for you, not for the other person.

I believe that there is no Golden Rule, or that the Golden Rule is that there is no Golden Rule.

::: sigh ::: I explained your office setting crap over and over. You will KNOW your coworkers after time and treat them accordingly. It really IS that easy. Your example simply shows someone being PUSHY. No one likes a pushy person.

Fine. I see your opinion on ethics. Just know that you haven't poked a hole in anything simply because you fail at adaptation is not the fault of the rule, but your own.

I can tell you with certainty I have met a dozen people just like you. Your logic is best, everyone else is a moron, when you don't get my way you will resort to immature (especially for 41) smart ass comments, and if that doesn't work you will try to demean or insult the person.

You are what we call an Asshole. Here is a book for you as you quest to better yourself.

Well, I see you've resorted to insults so I'm guessing our conversation is done.
 

Jack Ryan

Golden Member
Jun 11, 2004
1,353
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jack Ryan
Star trek already addressed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tellarite

"They consider normal polite conversation to be a grave insult; it is recommended to be insulting and crude when speaking to a Tellarite."

The golden rule is fundamentally flawed as it is a selfish view of the world, that the way you want to be treated is the right way for everyone.

While your intentions may be noble by following the golden rule every time, it doesn't mean it is the right way to treat someone every time.

It's rather amazing to me how hard people try to create a flaw that really doesn't exist. We've covered this over and over and over again.

It is rather amazing how you haven't shown a valid response to this (over and over and over again). TRYING to do the right thing in your mind doesn't equal DOING the right thing for the other person.

Yes, yes it does.

This answer covers it perfectly:

"If you don't know Bob, ALL you can do is treat him as you would wish to be treated. As you get to know Bob, he will let you know how he wishes to be treated and... GUESS WHAT??? You will treat him according to his wishes because... wait for it... that's how you would wish people to treat you."

Why? Because it's far better than being a rude little prick to everyone.

You see, while you sit and make excuses as to why ethics don't work, others are out there trying, and trying to make the world a far better place. I've never seen a war started by someone trying to be ethical, and failing. I've never seen any issue started by someone trying to be ethical, and someone else taking offense to it.

I have answered this imaginary issue over and over again. If you choose to use it as an excuse to treat others poorly rather than always as you would like to be treated, so be it.

Lets talk about Bob.

You don't know Bob.
You treat Bob like you want to be treated.
Bob takes offense to this (for whatever reason)
You did not treat Bob "right".

Can't make it any simpler for you. You didn't know how to treat Bob so you ASSUMED the best way was to treat him the way you wanted to be treated, which sometimes is just flat out wrong.

Your type is easy to spot. Know-it-all who will "discuss" anything, yet listen to no one. If you ever managed people you would know rather quickly that everyone needs to be treated differently, especially people from other cultures.

You may sleep better at night because you think there was nothing else you could have done except treat Bob like you want to be treated, but that doesn't make the act of offending him right.

All you can do is, quite simply, the best you can do. That's it. No one is omniscient and THAT is what you are demanding in an ethical code. Well, welcome to reality.

And your example is just moot in the real world. When have you seen this happen? Because in my 41 years alive, I have NEVER seen this happen.

I imagine that after 41 years you have seen everything there is to see and that it is a waste of time for me to even mention the first example that popped into my head. Maybe someone else would like to comment.

-Put yourself in an office setting. You like it when the office gets together and has a Christmas party or celebrates someones birthday. You order a cake, have a little party, and one person doesn't seem interested in participating. You love parties and would like to be included in them so you treat everyone else like they want to be engaged in office parties. This person is embarrassed and put on the spot for why they don't participate.

Turns out this person is a Jehovah's Witness and doesn't celebrate Christmas or birthdays and is now upset that they had to share this information (or chose not to and is now the subject of behind the back talking by others in the office).

You chose to treat them like you would (love office parties) but it turns out you made them feel uncomfortable. Which in my world is a failure in human relations.

This is a real life example that occurred in my place of business. Anytime that you interact (in the flesh) with people this is bound to happen because people continue to think that the way they want the world to be is the way it should be for everyone.

Omniscience has nothing to do with it. It makes YOU feel better that you treated people the way you wanted to be treated. Thats great for YOU. This makes it selfish (which you have mentioned) and flawed (many people's opinions, not just my own). Your actions are for you, not for the other person.

I believe that there is no Golden Rule, or that the Golden Rule is that there is no Golden Rule.

::: sigh ::: I explained your office setting crap over and over. You will KNOW your coworkers after time and treat them accordingly. It really IS that easy. Your example simply shows someone being PUSHY. No one likes a pushy person.

Fine. I see your opinion on ethics. Just know that you haven't poked a hole in anything simply because you fail at adaptation is not the fault of the rule, but your own.

I can tell you with certainty I have met a dozen people just like you. Your logic is best, everyone else is a moron, when you don't get my way you will resort to immature (especially for 41) smart ass comments, and if that doesn't work you will try to demean or insult the person.

You are what we call an Asshole. Here is a book for you as you quest to better yourself.

Well, I see you've resorted to insults so I'm guessing our conversation is done.

-Golden Rule Applied