Yes, this thread is eight pages long (and counting), but the last few pages are worth the read if you're interested in the pros and cons of the R500's EDRAM. 10MB appears ideal for 640x480 4xAA. Apparently MS then upped the target to HDTV's 720p, necessitating tiling to accomodate all the buffers in EDRAM. The question is, how expensive is tiling? I would imagine that the benefits of EDRAM outweight any latencies or pauses associated with tiling the buffers (as opposed to doing away with EDRAM altogether and just working within video/system RAM (a la RSX and all other gaming GPUs in recent memory).
I think he is rather confused as to what the XB360's eDRAM is used for. I'd like to know which developer it is that is supposed to be telling him this, I'll get in touch with him and ask exactly wtf they are trying to do where eDRAM is anything but an enormous benefit.
I read a good deal of the thread and have read numerous other comments regarding the lack of eDRAM for 720p w/4xAA and I just keep thinking to myself- shut AA off if it's that much of a hit. Honestly, we are going from 349K pixels with the current gen to 921K with 720p- close to trippling pixel density(1080i ~1,037K with 1080p ~2,074K). Increasing pixel density ~3x-6x is a pretty good generational leap even if it means not having AA(which also negates the eDRAM/tiling 'issues'). We are still talking about television displays here- not monitors we are sitting very close to with super fine dot pitches.
BTW- for the rabid fan loyalists here, I think the PS3 is going to destroy the XB360 based on everything I have seen, but ignoring the huge benefit of eDRAM is utterly moronic.
Fallen Kell
Diamond Member
- Oct 9, 1999
- 6,208
- 537
- 126
Teraflop is all about processing power, i.e. 1,000,000,000,000 floating point operations per second is one teraflop. Yes, we know the graphics chips will play a big part in that number on consoles since they are loaded with optimized floating point arithmatic units. But the number itself is about overall processing power with floating point numbers.
Originally posted by: Dukemaster
Alraid my mistake, but i have alway's wanted to say that and now i have.But back on topic, this is how i see it(my opninion): A gaming console is not a alternative for the pc as a whole, but it is a good alternative for the pc as a gaming device(and not having to spend a lot of money every 1-2 years on new hardware because otherwise the games don't run well). And how i see it it's not just a good alternative, it's a great one. For me i have alway's hade a console, because i like games like Tekken, Metal gear solid, Gran turismo etc. and i can't play those games on pc.
I agree... if it has mouse and keyboard support I may very well buy the Xbox. Well either that or just keep buying faster graphics cards. Graphics cards can be good for some other things like video encoding/etc. by using the shaders to accelerate different functions of compression.
I don't understand how EDRAM can help AA. The GPU core is what really matters for AA, correct? And EDRAM is just a storage device? Obviously I'm missing sometihng here. Why don't nVidia/ATI implement EDRAM on graphics cards? Considering the whole Xbox 360 is selling for, probably, under the $500 margin, it seems EDRAM couldn't cost that much, with the graphics chip costing at LEAST $150(?). I know I'm pulling these figures out of my ass but I don't think they're far off.
Your children must be proud of you. Such the adult. Yeah you made me look so bad and tricked me.
Yet you keep answering. Ironic isnt it?
xtknight..."I don't understand how EDRAM can help AA. The GPU core is what really matters for AA, correct? And EDRAM is just a storage device? Obviously I'm missing sometihng here. Why don't nVidia/ATI implement EDRAM on graphics cards? Considering the whole Xbox 360 is selling for, probably, under the $500 margin, it seems EDRAM couldn't cost that much, with the graphics chip costing at LEAST $150(?). I know I'm pulling these figures out of my ass but I don't think they're far off."
people seem to forget that the edram is only 1 component of the daughter die of the 360GPU responsible for free 4xMSAA. Integrated with the eDRAM are 192 FPU processors and are linked with an incredible bandwidth of 256GB/s (10x PS3's TOTAL graphics bandwidth). This enables the daughter die to do the AA calculations and shuttle the data needed for it without impacting the remaining 22.4GBs GDDR3 bandwidth for fetching textures/vertex data etc... as to why they don't implement it in their PC GPUs beats me??? they say it is not useful for PCs but hey, I think 4x MSAA at 1280x720/or 1080 for free is cool. as for the prices...well consoles are a money losing business hardware wise in the early run...over the lifespan of the console, the hardware becomes cheaper to manufacture recovering R&D costs and they hope to break even. They hope to make money elsewhere like games, online, accesories...etc...
people seem to forget that the edram is only 1 component of the daughter die of the 360GPU responsible for free 4xMSAA. Integrated with the eDRAM are 192 FPU processors and are linked with an incredible bandwidth of 256GB/s (10x PS3's TOTAL graphics bandwidth). This enables the daughter die to do the AA calculations and shuttle the data needed for it without impacting the remaining 22.4GBs GDDR3 bandwidth for fetching textures/vertex data etc... as to why they don't implement it in their PC GPUs beats me??? they say it is not useful for PCs but hey, I think 4x MSAA at 1280x720/or 1080 for free is cool. as for the prices...well consoles are a money losing business hardware wise in the early run...over the lifespan of the console, the hardware becomes cheaper to manufacture recovering R&D costs and they hope to break even. They hope to make money elsewhere like games, online, accesories...etc...
Yeah cause he's so much above all of us. LOL this guy is a riot. He's down here on "our level" and doing the same thing...yet for some reason thinks hes above all of this.
His posting continues. Just noted...
EDRAM isn't feasible for PCs because PCs run at too high a resolution, and implementing that much EDRAM would probably be too expensive. The EDRAM in Xenos is actually part of the GPU core, in that the final stages of the graphics pipeline (the ROPs) appear to have been integrated with the EDRAM. Thus the insanely high bandwidth, as the ROPs don't have to travel far to access the data they need, especially for AA (which requires X times the samples to be processed).
Ben, yeah, if it's a big hit, I'd be happy simply with 720p. Heck, if the console can't auto-detect whether you're connected to a SD or HD TV, the game should allow you to choose b/w 480p w/AA or 720p w/o. I just realized, though, that FP16 buffers would spill out of EDRAM no matter what, so tiling may be inevitable. OTOH, I guess they implemented the FX10 or FP10 mode brought up in that thread for speed, both in terms of fitting the buffers in EDRAM, and in terms of reducing memory access.
Ben, yeah, if it's a big hit, I'd be happy simply with 720p. Heck, if the console can't auto-detect whether you're connected to a SD or HD TV, the game should allow you to choose b/w 480p w/AA or 720p w/o. I just realized, though, that FP16 buffers would spill out of EDRAM no matter what, so tiling may be inevitable. OTOH, I guess they implemented the FX10 or FP10 mode brought up in that thread for speed, both in terms of fitting the buffers in EDRAM, and in terms of reducing memory access.
I'm hoping that's the case in instances where AA is too costly(although according to ATi it is what, 5% hit?).
Not with a 24bit Z- not sure how realistic that is with the R500- but it would let us squeeze in a FP16 buffer entirely to eDRAM.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,219
- 55
- 91
For your future note-taking, I will post as long as I care to. Regardless of what was said. And I don't think I'm above everyone else. Not even Ackmed. Just you at this moment. And yes, the posting will continue as long as you need to have the last word. Please continue until one, or both of us gets a vacation..
Oh, the reason for this is, you did not humbly accept my apology and continued on with a childish post. You have been around here long enough, Linus, to know that when somebody apologizes to you, you damn well better accept because it doesn't happen often. Accept the apology, and we are done.
Yeah your appology consisted of
Yeah your apology consisted of
"you need anger management, by the way I'm sorry"
I totally accept? You know me so well. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. You're so hypocritical it's not funny.
FYI I'm not going to accept your pathetic attempt to belittle me and apologize all in the same breath. It's an online forum and I honestly could care less about you. You jumped in the middle of something that had nothing to do with you. I replied to someone else and you opened your big mouth.
Of course you're going to continue to post. Because you're the bigger man and so mature and above me. I love it.
Irony is wonderful.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,219
- 55
- 91
You love what? "It's an online forum and I honestly could care less about you". Doesn't this apply to everyone here then?
Anyway, how is this:
I am sorry for jumping the gun and jumping all over you not fully understanding the context of your conversation. No Irony, no insults. Your ball.
Hell, I'll accept the apology on his behalf, as well as assume blame for the whole incident, if the both of you will either take it to PMs, get back on topic, or just STFU.
Thanks for the explanation...makes a lot more sense now.
Pete, I don't quite understand what you're saying. It's too expensive for a PC GPU card but not a console? IIRC, Xenon outputs at 1280x720p, which is higher than 1024x768 (definitely acceptable for me). You must be speaking about 1600x1200+ resolutions?
----
Wow...a teraflop in a ~$500(?) device is pretty awesome. Imagine someone linking a hundred of those together. It would beat the fastest supercomputer in the world, at a cheap-ass price (relatively-speaking of course).
How do I measure/calculate the megaflops of my CPU, in Windows?
- Aug 9, 2002
- 16,666
- 21
- 81
Well the core would have to fetch data from the local RAM which takes time when you consider each frame would have to be fed into the buffers. If the ram was stored locally near or on the core itself with AA logic to boot and speed up the process, then it would be "free", wouldn't it?
Yep, I'm speaking of higher resolutions, like the 1280x1024 now standard in 17-19" LCDs.
To attain a similarly ideal number, I guess you just multiply the number of floating point operations it can perform per cycle by its clock speed.
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