The future belongs to Islam

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
The future belongs to Islam

The Muslim world has youth, numbers and global ambitions. The West is growing old and enfeebled, and lacks the will to rebuff those who would supplant it. It's the end of the world as we've known it. An excerpt from 'America Alone'.

MARK STEYN

Sept. 11, 2001, was not "the day everything changed," but the day that revealed how much had already changed. On Sept. 10, how many journalists had the Council of American-Islamic Relations or the Canadian Islamic Congress or the Muslim Council of Britain in their Rolodexes? If you'd said that whether something does or does not cause offence to Muslims would be the early 21st century's principal political dynamic in Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, Belgium, France and the United Kingdom, most folks would have thought you were crazy. Yet on that Tuesday morning the top of the iceberg bobbed up and toppled the Twin Towers.

This is about the seven-eighths below the surface -- the larger forces at play in the developed world that have left Europe too enfeebled to resist its remorseless transformation into Eurabia and that call into question the future of much of the rest of the world. The key factors are: demographic decline; the unsustainability of the social democratic state; and civilizational exhaustion.

Let's start with demography, because everything does:

If your school has 200 guys and you're playing a school with 2,000 pupils, it doesn't mean your baseball team is definitely going to lose but it certainly gives the other fellows a big starting advantage. Likewise, if you want to launch a revolution, it's not very likely if you've only got seven revolutionaries. And they're all over 80. But, if you've got two million and seven revolutionaries and they're all under 30 you're in business.

For example, I wonder how many pontificators on the "Middle East peace process" ever run this number:

The median age in the Gaza Strip is 15.8 years.

Once you know that, all the rest is details. If you were a "moderate Palestinian" leader, would you want to try to persuade a nation -- or pseudo-nation -- of unemployed poorly educated teenage boys raised in a UN-supervised European-funded death cult to see sense? Any analysis of the "Palestinian problem" that doesn't take into account the most important determinant on the ground is a waste of time.

Likewise, the salient feature of Europe, Canada, Japan and Russia is that they're running out of babies. What's happening in the developed world is one of the fastest demographic evolutions in history: most of us have seen a gazillion heartwarming ethnic comedies -- My Big Fat Greek Wedding and its ilk -- in which some uptight WASPy type starts dating a gal from a vast loving fecund Mediterranean family, so abundantly endowed with sisters and cousins and uncles that you can barely get in the room. It is, in fact, the inversion of the truth. Greece has a fertility rate hovering just below 1.3 births per couple, which is what demographers call the point of "lowest-low" fertility from which no human society has ever recovered. And Greece's fertility is the healthiest in Mediterranean Europe: Italy has a fertility rate of 1.2, Spain 1.1. Insofar as any citizens of the developed world have "big" families these days, it's the anglo democracies: America's fertility rate is 2.1, New Zealand a little below. Hollywood should be making My Big Fat Uptight Protestant Wedding in which some sad Greek only child marries into a big heartwarming New Zealand family where the spouse actually has a sibling.

As I say, this isn't a projection: it's happening now. There's no need to extrapolate, and if you do it gets a little freaky, but, just for fun, here goes: by 2050, 60 per cent of Italians will have no brothers, no sisters, no cousins, no aunts, no uncles. The big Italian family, with papa pouring the vino and mama spooning out the pasta down an endless table of grandparents and nieces and nephews, will be gone, no more, dead as the dinosaurs. As Noel Coward once remarked in another context, "Funiculi, funicula, funic yourself." By mid-century, Italians will have no choice in the matter.

Experts talk about root causes. But demography is the most basic root of all. A people that won't multiply can't go forth or go anywhere. Those who do will shape the age we live in.

Demographic decline and the unsustainability of the social democratic state are closely related. In America, politicians upset about the federal deficit like to complain that we're piling up debts our children and grandchildren will have to pay off. But in Europe the unaffordable entitlements are in even worse shape: there are no kids or grandkids to stick it to.

You might formulate it like this:

Age + Welfare = Disaster for you;

Youth + Will = Disaster for whoever gets in your way.

By "will," I mean the metaphorical spine of a culture. Africa, to take another example, also has plenty of young people, but it's riddled with AIDS and, for the most part, Africans don't think of themselves as Africans: as we saw in Rwanda, their primary identity is tribal, and most tribes have no global ambitions. Islam, however, has serious global ambitions, and it forms the primal, core identity of most of its adherents -- in the Middle East, South Asia and elsewhere.

Islam has youth and will, Europe has age and welfare.

We are witnessing the end of the late 20th- century progressive welfare democracy. Its fiscal bankruptcy is merely a symptom of a more fundamental bankruptcy: its insufficiency as an animating principle for society. The children and grandchildren of those fascists and republicans who waged a bitter civil war for the future of Spain now shrug when a bunch of foreigners blow up their capital. Too sedated even to sue for terms, they capitulate instantly. Over on the other side of the equation, the modern multicultural state is too watery a concept to bind huge numbers of immigrants to the land of their nominal citizenship. So they look elsewhere and find the jihad. The Western Muslim's pan-Islamic identity is merely the first great cause in a world where globalized pathologies are taking the place of old-school nationalism.

For states in demographic decline with ever more lavish social programs, the question is a simple one: can they get real? Can they grow up before they grow old? If not, then they'll end their days in societies dominated by people with a very different world view.

Which brings us to the third factor -- the enervated state of the Western world, the sense of civilizational ennui, of nations too mired in cultural relativism to understand what's at stake. As it happens, that third point is closely related to the first two. To Americans, it doesn't always seem obvious that there's any connection between the "war on terror" and the so-called "pocketbook issues" of domestic politics. But there is a correlation between the structural weaknesses of the social democratic state and the rise of a globalized Islam. The state has gradually annexed all the responsibilities of adulthood -- health care, child care, care of the elderly -- to the point where it's effectively severed its citizens from humanity's primal instincts, not least the survival instinct. In the American context, the federal "deficit" isn't the problem; it's the government programs that cause the deficit. These programs would still be wrong even if Bill Gates wrote a cheque to cover them each month. They corrode the citizen's sense of self-reliance to a potentially fatal degree. Big government is a national security threat: it increases your vulnerability to threats like Islamism, and makes it less likely you'll be able to summon the will to rebuff it. We should have learned that lesson on Sept. 11, 2001, when big government flopped big-time and the only good news of the day came from the ad hoc citizen militia of Flight 93.

There were two forces at play in the late 20th century: in the Eastern bloc, the collapse of Communism; in the West, the collapse of confidence. One of the most obvious refutations of Francis Fukuyama's famous thesis The End Of History -- written at the victory of liberal pluralist democracy over Soviet Communism -- is that the victors didn't see it as such. Americans -- or at least non-Democrat-voting Americans -- may talk about "winning" the Cold War but the French and the Belgians and Germans and Canadians don't. Very few British do. These are all formal NATO allies -- they were, technically, on the winning side against a horrible tyranny few would wish to live under themselves. In Europe, there was an initial moment of euphoria: it was hard not be moved by the crowds sweeping through the Berlin Wall, especially as so many of them were hot-looking Red babes eager to enjoy a Carlsberg or Stella Artois with even the nerdiest running dog of imperialism. But, when the moment faded, pace Fukuyama, there was no sense on the Continent that our Big Idea had beaten their Big Idea. With the best will in the world, it's hard to credit the citizens of France or Italy as having made any serious contribution to the defeat of Communism. Au contraire, millions of them voted for it, year in, year out. And, with the end of the Soviet existential threat, the enervation of the West only accelerated.

In Thomas P. M. Barnett's book Blueprint For Action, Robert D. Kaplan, a very shrewd observer of global affairs, is quoted referring to the lawless fringes of the map as "Indian territory." It's a droll joke but a misleading one. The difference between the old Indian territory and the new is this: no one had to worry about the Sioux riding down Fifth Avenue. Today, with a few hundred bucks on his ATM card, the fellow from the badlands can be in the heart of the metropolis within hours.

Here's another difference: in the old days, the white man settled the Indian territory. Now the followers of the badland's radical imams settle the metropolis.

And another difference: technology. In the old days, the Injuns had bows and arrows and the cavalry had rifles. In today's Indian territory, countries that can't feed their own people have nuclear weapons.

But beyond that the very phrase "Indian territory" presumes that inevitably these badlands will be brought within the bounds of the ordered world. In fact, a lot of today's "Indian territory" was relatively ordered a generation or two back -- West Africa, Pakistan, Bosnia. Though Eastern Europe and Latin America and parts of Asia are freer now than they were in the seventies, other swaths of the map have spiralled backwards. Which is more likely? That the parts of the world under pressure will turn into post-Communist Poland or post-Communist Yugoslavia? In Europe, the demographic pressures favour the latter.

The enemies we face in the future will look a lot like al-Qaeda: transnational, globalized, locally franchised, extensively outsourced -- but tied together through a powerful identity that leaps frontiers and continents. They won't be nation-states and they'll have no interest in becoming nation-states, though they might use the husks thereof, as they did in Afghanistan and then Somalia. The jihad may be the first, but other transnational deformities will embrace similar techniques. Sept. 10 institutions like the UN and the EU will be unlikely to provide effective responses.

We can argue about what consequences these demographic trends will have, but to say blithely they have none is ridiculous. The basic demography explains, for example, the critical difference between the "war on terror" for Americans and Europeans: in the U.S., the war is something to be fought in the treacherous sands of the Sunni Triangle and the caves of the Hindu Kush; you go to faraway places and kill foreigners. But, in Europe, it's a civil war. Neville Chamberlain dismissed Czechoslovakia as "a faraway country of which we know little." This time round, for much of western Europe it turned out the faraway country of which they knew little was their own.

Four years into the "war on terror," the Bush administration began promoting a new formulation: "the long war." Not a good sign. In a short war, put your money on tanks and bombs. In a long war, the better bet is will and manpower. The longer the long war gets, the harder it will be, because it's a race against time, against lengthening demographic, economic and geopolitical odds. By "demographic," I mean the Muslim world's high birth rate, which by mid-century will give tiny Yemen a higher population than vast empty Russia. By "economic," I mean the perfect storm the Europeans will face within this decade, because their lavish welfare states are unsustainable on their post-Christian birth rates. By "geopolitical," I mean that, if you think the United Nations and other international organizations are antipathetic to America now, wait a few years and see what kind of support you get from a semi-Islamified Europe.

Almost every geopolitical challenge in the years ahead has its roots in demography, but not every demographic crisis will play out the same way. That's what makes doing anything about it even more problematic -- because different countries' reactions to their own particular domestic circumstances are likely to play out in destabilizing ways on the international scene. In Japan, the demographic crisis exists virtually in laboratory conditions -- no complicating factors; in Russia, it will be determined by the country's relationship with a cramped neighbour -- China; and in Europe, the new owners are already in place -- like a tenant with a right-to-buy agreement.

Let's start in the most geriatric jurisdiction on the planet. In Japan, the rising sun has already passed into the next phase of its long sunset: net population loss. 2005 was the first year since records began in which the country had more deaths than births. Japan offers the chance to observe the demographic death spiral in its purest form. It's a country with no immigration, no significant minorities and no desire for any: just the Japanese, aging and dwindling.

At first it doesn't sound too bad: compared with the United States, most advanced societies are very crowded. If you're in a cramped apartment in a noisy congested city, losing a couple hundred thousand seems a fine trade-off. The difficulty, in a modern social democratic state, is managing which people to lose: already, according to the Japan Times, depopulation is "presenting the government with pressing challenges on the social and economic front, including ensuring provision of social security services and securing the labour force." For one thing, the shortage of children has led to a shortage of obstetricians. Why would any talented ambitious med school student want to go into a field in such precipitous decline? As a result, if you live in certain parts of Japan, childbirth is all in the timing. On Oki Island, try to time the contractions for Monday morning. That's when the maternity ward is open -- first day of the week, 10 a.m., when an obstetrician flies in to attend to any pregnant mothers who happen to be around. And at 5.30 p.m. she flies out. So, if you've been careless enough to time your childbirth for Tuesday through Sunday, you'll have to climb into a helicopter and zip off to give birth alone in a strange hospital unsurrounded by tiresome loved ones. Do Lamaze classes on Oki now teach you to time your breathing to the whirring of the chopper blades?

The last local obstetrician left the island in 2006 and the health service isn't expecting any more. Doubtless most of us can recall reading similar stories over the years from remote rural districts in America, Canada, Australia. After all, why would a village of a few hundred people have a great medical system? But Oki has a population of 17,000, and there are still no obstetricians: birthing is a dying business.

So what will happen? There are a couple of scenarios: whatever Japanese feelings on immigration, a country with great infrastructure won't empty out for long, any more than a state-of-the-art factory that goes belly up stays empty for long. At some point, someone else will move in to Japan's plant.

And the alternative? In The Children Of Men, P. D. James' dystopian fantasy about a barren world, there are special dolls for women whose maternal instinct has gone unfulfilled: pretend mothers take their artificial children for walks on the street or to the swings in the park. In Japan, that's no longer the stuff of dystopian fantasy. At the beginning of the century, the country's toy makers noticed they had a problem: toys are for children and Japan doesn't have many. What to do? In 2005, Tomy began marketing a new doll called Yumel -- a baby boy with a range of 1,200 phrases designed to serve as companions for the elderly. He says not just the usual things -- "I wuv you" -- but also asks the questions your grandchildren would ask if you had any: "Why do elephants have long noses?" Yumel joins his friend, the Snuggling Ifbot, a toy designed to have the conversation of a five-year old child which its makers, with the usual Japanese efficiency, have determined is just enough chit-chat to prevent the old folks going senile. It seems an appropriate final comment on the social democratic state: in a childish infantilized self-absorbed society where adults have been stripped of all responsibility, you need never stop playing with toys. We are the children we never had.

And why leave it at that? Is it likely an ever smaller number of young people will want to spend their active years looking after an ever greater number of old people? Or will it be simpler to put all that cutting-edge Japanese technology to good use and take a flier on Mister Roboto and the post-human future? After all, what's easier for the governing class? Weaning a pampered population off the good life and re-teaching them the lost biological impulse or giving the Sony Corporation a licence to become the Cloney Corporation? If you need to justify it to yourself, you'd grab the graphs and say, well, demographic decline is universal. It's like industrialization a couple of centuries back; everyone will get to it eventually, but the first to do so will have huge advantages: the relevant comparison is not with England's early 19th century population surge but with England's Industrial Revolution. In the industrial age, manpower was critical. In the new technological age, manpower will be optional -- and indeed, if most of the available manpower's Muslim, it's actually a disadvantage. As the most advanced society with the most advanced demographic crisis, Japan seems likely to be the first jurisdiction to embrace robots and cloning and embark on the slippery slope to transhumanism.

Demographic origin need not be the final word. In 1775, Benjamin Franklin wrote a letter to Joseph Priestly suggesting a mutual English friend might like to apply his mind to the conundrum the Crown faced:

Britain, at the expense of three millions, has killed 150 Yankees this campaign, which is £20000 a head... During the same time, 60000 children have been born in America. From these data his mathematical head will easily calculate the time and the expense necessary to kill us all.

Obviously, Franklin was oversimplifying. Not every American colonist identified himself as a rebel. After the revolution, there were massive population displacements: as United Empire Loyalists well know, large numbers of New Yorkers left the colony to resettle in what's now Ontario. Some American Negroes were so anxious to remain subjects of King George III they resettled as far as Sierra Leone. For these people, their primary identity was not as American colonists but as British subjects. For others, their new identity as Americans had supplanted their formal allegiance to the Crown. The question for today's Europe is whether the primary identity of their fastest-growing demographic is Muslim or Belgian, Muslim or Dutch, Muslim or French.

That's where civilizational confidence comes in: if "Dutchness" or "Frenchness" seems a weak attenuated thing, then the stronger identity will prevail. One notes other similarities between revolutionary America and contemporary Europe: the United Empire Loyalists were older and wealthier; the rebels were younger and poorer. In the end, the former simply lacked the latter's strength of will.

Europe, like Japan, has catastrophic birth rates and a swollen pampered elderly class determined to live in defiance of economic reality. But the difference is that on the Continent the successor population is already in place and the only question is how bloody the transfer of real estate will be.

If America's "allies" failed to grasp the significance of 9/11, it's because Europe's home-grown terrorism problems had all taken place among notably static populations, such as Ulster and the Basque country. One could make generally safe extrapolations about the likelihood of holding Northern Ireland to what cynical strategists in Her Majesty's Government used to call an "acceptable level of violence." But in the same three decades as Ulster's "Troubles," the hitherto moderate Muslim populations of south Asia were radicalized by a politicized form of Islam; previously formally un-Islamic societies such as Nigeria became semi-Islamist; and large Muslim populations settled in parts of Europe that had little or no experience of mass immigration.

On the Continent and elsewhere in the West, native populations are aging and fading and being supplanted remorselessly by a young Muslim demographic. Time for the obligatory "of courses": of course, not all Muslims are terrorists -- though enough are hot for jihad to provide an impressive support network of mosques from Vienna to Stockholm to Toronto to Seattle. Of course, not all Muslims support terrorists -- though enough of them share their basic objectives (the wish to live under Islamic law in Europe and North America) to function wittingly or otherwise as the "good cop" end of an Islamic good cop/bad cop routine. But, at the very minimum, this fast-moving demographic transformation provides a huge comfort zone for the jihad to move around in. And in a more profound way it rationalizes what would otherwise be the nuttiness of the terrorists' demands. An IRA man blows up a pub in defiance of democratic reality -- because he knows that at the ballot box the Ulster Loyalists win the elections and the Irish Republicans lose. When a European jihadist blows something up, that's not in defiance of democratic reality but merely a portent of democratic reality to come. He's jumping the gun, but in every respect things are moving his way.

You may vaguely remember seeing some flaming cars on the evening news toward the end of 2005. Something going on in France, apparently. Something to do with -- what's the word? -- "youths." When I pointed out the media's strange reluctance to use the M-word vis-à-vis the rioting "youths," I received a ton of emails arguing there's no Islamist component, they're not the madrasa crowd, they may be Muslim but they're secular and Westernized and into drugs and rap and meaningless sex with no emotional commitment, and rioting and looting and torching and trashing, just like any normal healthy Western teenagers. These guys have economic concerns, it's the lack of jobs, it's conditions peculiar to France, etc. As one correspondent wrote, "You right-wing ******-for-brains think everything's about jihad."

Actually, I don't think everything's about jihad. But I do think, as I said, that a good 90 per cent of everything's about demography. Take that media characterization of those French rioters: "youths." What's the salient point about youths? They're youthful. Very few octogenarians want to go torching Renaults every night. It's not easy lobbing a Molotov cocktail into a police station and then hobbling back with your walker across the street before the searing heat of the explosion melts your hip replacement. Civil disobedience is a young man's game.

In June 2006, a 54-year-old Flemish train conductor called Guido Demoor got on the Number 23 bus in Antwerp to go to work. Six -- what's that word again? -- "youths" boarded the bus and commenced intimidating the other riders. There were some 40 passengers aboard. But the "youths" were youthful and the other passengers less so. Nonetheless, Mr. Demoor asked the lads to cut it out and so they turned on him, thumping and kicking him. Of those 40 other passengers, none intervened to help the man under attack. Instead, at the next stop, 30 of the 40 scrammed, leaving Mr. Demoor to be beaten to death. Three "youths" were arrested, and proved to be -- quelle surprise! -- of Moroccan origin. The ringleader escaped and, despite police assurances of complete confidentiality, of those 40 passengers only four came forward to speak to investigators. "You see what happens if you intervene," a fellow rail worker told the Belgian newspaper De Morgen. "If Guido had not opened his mouth he would still be alive."

No, he wouldn't. He would be as dead as those 40 passengers are, as the Belgian state is, keeping his head down, trying not to make eye contact, cowering behind his newspaper in the corner seat and hoping just to be left alone. What future in "their" country do Mr. Demoor's two children have? My mother and grandparents came from Sint-Niklaas, a town I remember well from many childhood visits. When we stayed with great-aunts and other relatives, the upstairs floors of the row houses had no bathrooms, just chamber pots. My sister and I were left to mooch around cobbled streets with our little cousin for hours on end, wandering aimlessly past smoke-wreathed bars and cafes, occasionally buying frites with mayonnaise. With hindsight it seemed as parochially Flemish as could be imagined. Not anymore. The week before Mr. Demoor was murdered in plain sight, bus drivers in Sint-Niklaas walked off the job to protest the thuggery of the -- here it comes again -- "youths." In little more than a generation, a town has been transformed.

Of the ethnic Belgian population, some 17 per cent are under 18 years old. Of the country's Turkish and Moroccan population, 35 per cent are under 18 years old. The "youths" get ever more numerous, the non-youths get older. To avoid the ruthless arithmetic posited by Benjamin Franklin, it is necessary for those "youths" to feel more Belgian. Is that likely? Colonel Gadhafi doesn't think so:

There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe -- without swords, without guns, without conquests. The fifty million Muslims of Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.

On Sept. 11, 2001, the American mainland was attacked for the first time since the War of 1812. The perpetrators were foreign -- Saudis and Egyptians. Since 9/11, Europe has seen the London Tube bombings, the French riots, Dutch murders of nationalist politicians. The perpetrators are their own citizens -- British subjects, citoyens de la République française. In Linz, Austria, Muslims are demanding that all female teachers, believers or infidels, wear head scarves in class. The Muslim Council of Britain wants Holocaust Day abolished because it focuses "only" on the Nazis' (alleged) Holocaust of the Jews and not the Israelis' ongoing Holocaust of the Palestinians.

How does the state react? In Seville, King Ferdinand III is no longer patron saint of the annual fiesta because his splendid record in fighting for Spanish independence from the Moors was felt to be insensitive to Muslims. In London, a judge agreed to the removal of Jews and Hindus from a trial jury because the Muslim defendant's counsel argued he couldn't get a fair verdict from them. The Church of England is considering removing St. George as the country's patron saint on the grounds that, according to various Anglican clergy, he's too "militaristic" and "offensive to Muslims." They wish to replace him with St. Alban, and replace St. George's cross on the revamped Union Flag, which would instead show St. Alban's cross as a thin yellow streak.

In a few years, as millions of Muslim teenagers are entering their voting booths, some European countries will not be living formally under sharia, but -- as much as parts of Nigeria, they will have reached an accommodation with their radicalized Islamic compatriots, who like many intolerant types are expert at exploiting the "tolerance" of pluralist societies. In other Continental countries, things are likely to play out in more traditional fashion, though without a significantly different ending. Wherever one's sympathies lie on Islam's multiple battle fronts the fact is the jihad has held out a long time against very tough enemies. If you're not shy about taking on the Israelis and Russians, why wouldn't you fancy your chances against the Belgians and Spaniards?

"We're the ones who will change you," the Norwegian imam Mullah Krekar told the Oslo newspaper Dagbladet in 2006. "Just look at the development within Europe, where the number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes. Every Western woman in the EU is producing an average of 1.4 children. Every Muslim woman in the same countries is producing 3.5 children." As he summed it up: "Our way of thinking will prove more powerful than yours."

Text

I have had recent conversations with a few people here on msn ect in regards to this somewhat. I saw this article at the library last night and thought I would share. In a non-conspiracy type of way and just looking at actions and past actions it seems that some statements of the article might ring true. One of the major undertones I think the author didn't focus on enough was the backlash of European people against change. I can see a violent, very violent backlash before the Europeans allow Muslims to control there homeland.

Anyone have any other thoughts on this article?
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Screw them, if we start thinking like them how long do you think they'd last?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,762
6,768
126
This reminds me of a Mulla Nasrudin story:

A youth at a train station ran up and down the seats knocking off people's hats. Somebody asked the Mulla to do something. "That's not how things are working out", he replied. Shortly thereafter the youth knocked off a soldier's hat and he jumped up and shot him.

Charles Bronson will be along shortly, no?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I have been saying this for years. When we were hit on 9-11 it was more about seeing how Europe would react. With population decline in full swing in that region you will see this culture war grow big time. Many terrorist groups who want to bring the world under a single Islamic state have said the war started 35 years ago. The West just doesnt know it yet. What they were saying is people moved and reproduced at a much higher rate than the native populations. Eventually these people will outgrow the native peoples and use their own systems to toss them out and install their own brand of law.

The numbers I have heard is by 2060 the population of Europe is expected to be about ~700 million with 280 of them being native Europeans. I bet within my lifetime we see Islamic state erected right in the middle of Europe.

In the end it is a culture war and we are losing and the majority dont even know it yet.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
A waste of bandwidth that essentially relies on scare mongering and the assumption that you can't be muslim and live in a western world. Articles like this assume that I, among MANY others simply doesn't exist...because we have to be either a "Muslim" or a "Westerner" - that a westerner simply can't be a muslim.

Also things are even quoted properly - the Spain bombings were Basque separtists, yet we want to say the "Mooselmans did it!"
This is simply the same rehashed arguments by people about the "Death of the West" and the "invasion of Mexicans" except the setting is Europe and poor people right now are Muslims from many different racial backgrounds.

Wake up and realize the world is changing. In fifty years the US on the whole will get a little more brown --> that doesn't mean it isn't the USA. Hell come down to parts of So Cal right now and all you WILL find are non whites essentially. I can blindfold you, release you somewhere and you'll have the impression you are in East Asia or somewhere because EVERYONE will be speaking something OTHER than English, SIGNS are not English, and even the McDonald's is in Korean! Are you going to talk about the "Demographics" with East Asians invading us? Why the double standard?

This person's image of Jihad is also largely screwed up. Apparently this Jihad in progress is all about running into other countries and killing "westerners".

What I say is that for 50 years America had a single objective: contain communism. We built up our infrastructure and focused everything on that because it gave us a clear goal, especially when it came to expanding our spheres of influence around the world. But come the fall of the Soviet Union, we languished for 10 years or so with no clear direction and began to watch the world become slightly multipower; we watched our influence curb ever just a bit as other countries tried to assert themselves.
Now this "war on Terror" provides the perfect opportunity to return BACK to that mentality of the cold war where it is "us or them" and let us assert outselves globally once more because now we are "protecting people from terror". And with such VAGUELY defined goals this thing could go on forever. And these people chose Islam as the "tarrrarist" society that we must oppose - despite the fact that MANY struggles world wide are not necessarily about religion. Instead they are about self rule by a group of people and religion gets invoked. Doesn't matter whether you are in Ireland or somewhere about Chechnya - it isn't really Muslim vs prostestnat vs catholic: but bringing up God on your side is powerful

I just hope that the "West" wakes up and realize that our real enemy isn't Islam...that the world is simply integrating more and more, and that we should realize that we can exist without always having some kind of enemy - lest real force and action are taken on Muslims for simply being associated with a whacko on the other side of the world simply through association.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: Genx87
I have been saying this for years. When we were hit on 9-11 it was more about seeing how Europe would react. With population decline in full swing in that region you will see this culture war grow big time. Many terrorist groups who want to bring the world under a single Islamic state have said the war started 35 years ago. The West just doesnt know it yet. What they were saying is people moved and reproduced at a much higher rate than the native populations. Eventually these people will outgrow the native peoples and use their own systems to toss them out and install their own brand of law.

The numbers I have heard is by 2060 the population of Europe is expected to be about ~700 million with 280 of them being native Europeans. I bet within my lifetime we see Islamic state erected right in the middle of Europe.

In the end it is a culture war and we are losing and the majority dont even know it yet.

There is no culture war - unless you want to believe it. Cultures have always been interacting and changing and learning. MUCH of what comes from early science is borrowed from the Arabs: I should know because words in Ochem are just bastardized Arabic phrases, Algebra is as well. But there are also many words in Arabic that are borrowed from English - especially within the past 100 years.
IS that a "culture war" between people? Does it bother you if a person can practice another culture? Must we all have "Western culture"?
To assume that most Muslims in Europe are out to eradicate the population is ridiculous - we act as if these people were told by God in the Quran to light a bus on fire. IT would be about as ridiculously as me believing that the average "Westerner" feels that all Muslims are terrarists.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
This person's image of Jihad is also largely screwed up. Apparently this Jihad in progress is all about running into other countries and killing "westerners".

Did you read the article at all? It focused mainly on demographics, changing the system from within. Not about killing people outright to gain a goal. To that I think the article has a very good point. The West and its culture are on the losing end of demographics. The main question will be once Muslims gain a majoirty population in Europe will they retain a lot of the culture or change it to their needs?

So far from the few examples I have seen from across the pond, I think Europe will be changed forever.



 

Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
7,664
0
71
Sorry, I stopped reading as soon as the following comment was made:
"By "will," I mean the metaphorical spine of a culture. Africa, to take another example, also has plenty of young people, but it's riddled with AIDS and, for the most part, Africans don't think of themselves as Africans: as we saw in Rwanda, their primary identity is tribal, and most tribes have no global ambitions. Islam, however, has serious global ambitions, and it forms the primal, core identity of most of its adherents -- in the Middle East, South Asia and elsewhere. "

Please. Africans don't think of themselves as Africans, their primary identity is tribal... And how is the Islamic world any different? Look at Afghanistan's bickering warlords. Look at sectarian violence in Iraq. Look at the inability of any of the Arab states to help out their poor Palestinian "brothers". Look at the national boundaries along the Arabian peninsula. The Islamic world is as fractionated as Africa. The only Islamic countries with some semblance of even national unity have that unity imposed upon them from the highest levels in the form of an iron fist, not because of belief in an identity. And in the next 20 or so years as global dependence on oil declines steeply, the Islamic world will become about as relevant as Africa, where millions can be slaughtered and no one in the 'civilized' world really cares.

The future doesn't belong to Islam. The future belongs to Asia.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Originally posted by: RichardE
The future belongs to Islam



"We're the ones who will change you," the Norwegian imam Mullah Krekar told the Oslo newspaper Dagbladet in 2006. "Just look at the development within Europe, where the number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes. Every Western woman in the EU is producing an average of 1.4 children. Every Muslim woman in the same countries is producing 3.5 children." As he summed it up: "Our way of thinking will prove more powerful than yours."

Text

I have had recent conversations with a few people here on msn ect in regards to this somewhat. I saw this article at the library last night and thought I would share. In a non-conspiracy type of way and just looking at actions and past actions it seems that some statements of the article might ring true. One of the major undertones I think the author didn't focus on enough was the backlash of European people against change. I can see a violent, very violent backlash before the Europeans allow Muslims to control there homeland.

Anyone have any other thoughts on this article?

Can you really blame the muslims because they don't want to live a hedonistic lifestyle?

Sex is Essential, Kids are Not
THE GERMAN PUBLIC was recently shocked to learn that 30% of "their" women are childless ? the highest proportion of any country in the world. And this is not a result of infertility; it's intentional childlessness.

Demographers are intrigued. German nationalists, aghast. Religious fundamentalists, distressed at the indication that large numbers of women are using birth control

They are mocking christian fundamentalists not radical Islamists.

When it comes to our behavior, evolution is clearly influential. Of this there can be no doubt. But only rarely is it determinative, even when something as deeply biological as reproduction is concerned. Indeed, the trend toward childlessness is neither particularly German nor strangely "un-biological" but profoundly human.

If a society wants to live a lifestyle of being single and independent ,don't complain if you are replaced by a pro children, family culture that opposes the very secular, liberal lifestyle you have chosen, after all evolution is clearly influential:laugh:



 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: Genx87
This person's image of Jihad is also largely screwed up. Apparently this Jihad in progress is all about running into other countries and killing "westerners".
So far from the few examples I have seen from across the pond, I think Europe will be changed forever.

Such is the ebb and flow of humanity. The world isn't a solid state piece of circuitry. By 2060, the US will be a different place too.

I'd rather deal with change in a rational manner versus grabbing a gun and building a wall around the nation.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: 1prophet
[If a society wants to live a lifestyle of being single and independent ,don't complain if you are replaced by a pro children, family culture that opposes the very secular, liberal lifestyle you have chosen, after all evolution is clearly influential:laugh:
To be replaced by Bat Sh!t Crazy Religious Fanatics?

 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: Genx87
This person's image of Jihad is also largely screwed up. Apparently this Jihad in progress is all about running into other countries and killing "westerners".

Did you read the article at all? It focused mainly on demographics, changing the system from within. Not about killing people outright to gain a goal. To that I think the article has a very good point. The West and its culture are on the losing end of demographics. The main question will be once Muslims gain a majoirty population in Europe will they retain a lot of the culture or change it to their needs?

So far from the few examples I have seen from across the pond, I think Europe will be changed forever.
I read the entire article, and he brings it up over and over. He is arguing that it is a Jihad through demographics. A "silent jihad" if you will....as if we all have Jihad on our mind day in and day out.

As for culture, and needs. Islam itself doesn't remove a culture and replace it with a new one. Like anything, it simply imprints itself at certain areas, although that imprint in cases are never strong enough (ie: erradicating female mutilation in Africa). That is why it can be applied to each culture and although the majority of people maybe Muslims, the cultures are still very different between eachother. A Muslim in Iraq doesn't have the same culture as a Muslim in Pakistan and as a Muslim in the Balkans.

Maybe what you are worried about are immigrants bringing their home culture and making it the new culture. So in reality you aren't worried about the Muslim coming to Britian, but you are worried about the Bangladeshi coming to Britian and trying to replicate his life the exact same way (Which any of us would do btw...)

:roll: to your bolded portion, as if the two are mutually exclusive from eacother
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: 1prophet
[If a society wants to live a lifestyle of being single and independent ,don't complain if you are replaced by a pro children, family culture that opposes the very secular, liberal lifestyle you have chosen, after all evolution is clearly influential:laugh:
To be replaced by Bat Sh!t Crazy Religious Fanatics?

I believe Jesus did say the "meek" will inherit the earth :D

 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
The West and its culture are on the losing end of demographics. The main question will be once Muslims gain a majoirty population in Europe will they retain a lot of the culture or change it to their needs?
Is US culture the same as it was 100 years ago? 200 years ago?

Things change. Things get blended together, mixed, created, erased.

A better question is, why do you want to live in a vacuum?
 

imported_dna

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2006
1,755
0
0
Originally posted by: magomago
Are you going to talk about the "Demographics" with East Asians invading us? Why the double standard?

You treat them as equally active, or vocal, in the political scene.

So far there hasn't been mass Chinese/Korean demonstration of illegals, demanding rights; no events where the US flag was trampled on and substituted with the Chinese/Korean flag at the post office; nor was there a Chinese/Korean that didn't want to do their job based on shaky religious justifications, and then sued for discrimination.

Just thought I should mention it.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: magomago
Are you going to talk about the "Demographics" with East Asians invading us? Why the double standard?

You treat them as equally active, or vocal, in the political scene.

So far there hasn't been mass Chinese/Korean demonstration of illegals, demanding rights; no events where the US flag was trampled on and substituted with the Chinese/Korean flag at the post office; nor was there a Chinese/Korean that didn't want to do their job based on shaky religious justifications, and then sued for discrimination.

Just thought I should mention it.
You don't see them because they are smarter than that - The number of illegal Chinese immigrants here is amazing, and I've even had a few professors comment on that in classes ON Asian Americans (Atleast in So Cal, most colleges offer some kind of Asian American Studies Degree). They claim asylum based on BS and go through ELABORATE schemes to make things up so the government can't detect it - and the number of people that have married soley to get a green card and then promptly divorce is astounding. You can find houses with six families in it - all illegal. The difference is they don't "publicize" like their mexican counterparts. You don't have to place in a Chinese flag or claim religious justifacation to abuse the system and otherwise "take over".
Hell - as for Chinese, I've met many can't even speak english! I have friends who have lived here for over twelve years and STILL speak extremely choppy just because they want to avoid English. I know many Chinese people whose parents live in Taiwan and China and they claim "zero income" and go to COLLEGE FOR FREE, get FREE BOOKS, are GIVEN STIPENDS FOR LIVING....all while they drive around their Mercedes or BMW that their mommy or daddy bought them (of course all of them are professionals), and sport their Loius Vutton gear.
No one single group of people - whether you want to treat the group as a race, or an ethnicity, or a religion - DOESN'T take advantage or abuse the system. Because as far as I'm concerned - you are trying to undermine the USA whether or not you do it visibly like switching flags, or whether you are draining the funds of the tax payer.

Just because a group of people are not "Active or vocal"in the political scene doesn't mean something isn't amiss. But in the USA the Mexican border is next to us, and its easier for Mexicans to get in so they are higher profile. In Europe the majority of their poor immigrants have been coming from North Africa because its the easiest for them to get there so they are the most high profile.
In both cases you have radicals claiming that "we are being invaded" as if the USA was stagnant for 200 years, or as if Europe was always the way it was. If anything, for a period in the 1900s we got MORE homogenous; go read up how nation states in greece and turkey evicted each other based on race (which in turn partially dictated the religion). Large Muslim centers in Greece were removed because they were "turks", and Christian culture in the Anatolia peninsula that existed for thousands of years is virtually extinct now because they were NOT "turks".
Cultures mix, people interact, and the settings around us change. If they didn't, we would end up like Japanese society that was stagnant for a few hundred years. That will occur no matter what, so we need to be careful before we start talking about "invasions" and "demographic death" because it IS borderline racist/bigot. It isn't entirely - but there is an element that can't be denied. Talking about the "Mexican invasion" and the "Demographic death of the west" shows that one is interested in maintaining a specific group/culture/or race of people...and talking about the "Silent Jihad in Europe" clearly shows that person is more interested in panic attacks because of increasing numbers of Muslims.

btw- no hate on Chinese people ;) They are just an easy example to use since there are plenty of them around here. And not to make it sound like the majority are like that: I would say the majority speaks little to no Chinese ;)
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,832
10,131
136
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Screw them, if we start thinking like them how long do you think they'd last?

As long as it takes for a nuclear weapon to explode. Don't worry, while we lack to will to use them, Ahmadinejad will teach us how fast it happens.
 

AnitaPeterson

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
6,021
547
126
Don't underestimate the population boom in Eastern Europe!
As more of these countries are joining the EU, and the economic conditions are improving, there will be a lot of young people who'll start having children again.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Looks like a bunch of Phoney Baloney.

I cant wait for the Muslims to take over. Since I dont Somoke, or drink alcohol I can just grow a beard and watch all the people get their heads chopped off. I will really enjoy this enlightened society. What joke these bozos are.

Probably the first people to go will be all the liberal-minded people who are gay and lesbians. That can not be allowed in any kind of a Muslim world.

The point is that you better think twice before you consider Muslim Society to be of any good for this country. In France the muslims are stoning the police. Better stock up on the Stun Guns. That is almost like whipping yourself on the back for Allah!

Never forget 9-11!
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: piasabird
Looks like a bunch of Phoney Baloney.

I cant wait for the Muslims to take over. Since I dont Somoke, or drink alcohol I can just grow a beard and watch all the people get their heads chopped off. I will really enjoy this enlightened society. What joke these bozos are.

Probably the first people to go will be all the liberal-minded people who are gay and lesbians. That can not be allowed in any kind of a Muslim world.

The point is that you better think twice before you consider Muslim Society to be of any good for this country. In France the muslims are stoning the police. Better stock up on the Stun Guns. That is almost like whipping yourself on the back for Allah!

Never forget 9-11!

What kind of jingoistic comments are these?
You tied 9/11, Islam, police brutality, and liberals all together....