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The first 2012 Presidential Debate - 10\03\12 - 6 p.m. PT (9p.m. ET)

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Jan 25, 2011
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LOL, please pm me when you find this. LOLOLOL!

Tax breaks? For shipping jobs overseas?

How ludicrous!

Jobs are shipped overseas because of minimum wage laws, lawyers, insurance companies, etc... not for tax breaks.

-John
Companies are able to take deductions and reduce tax burdens they incur shutting down plants in the U.S.. They can also defer taxes they pay on income of the foreign subsidiaries giving a large tax savings.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
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very interesting debate.
President Obama definitely came out flat, repetitive and more importantly defensive.
That along caused him the debate. However, knowing Obama there is more to come.

Mitt Romney's strategy was quite interesting. He almost sounds democrat, as if he was Obama 4 years go. Energy jobs, middle class...etc. Knowing the state of the Republican party, I am weary of the "truth" behind his words.

However, they are typical politicians that will say anything to get a vote.
You understand today, that Obama is not for the middle class; rather he is for the 47 million people that pay no money in taxes.

The republican party, be it as it may, is for the rest of us, that actually pay taxes, and try and contribute to society.

-John
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
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very interesting debate.
President Obama definitely came out flat, repetitive and more importantly defensive.
That along caused him the debate. However, knowing Obama there is more to come.

Mitt Romney's strategy was quite interesting. He almost sounds democrat, as if he was Obama 4 years go. Energy jobs, middle class...etc. Knowing the state of the Republican party, I am weary of the "truth" behind his words.

However, they are typical politicians that will say anything to get a vote.
That tends to happen when you don't have 4 years of fail on your record.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
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Keystone XL. You mean the pipeline that will transport Canadian oil to refineries in Texas that will export it as refined product abroad with almost none of it ending up in the US and maybe a dozen permanent jobs? That pipeline?

Aggressive offshore drilling. What could possibly go wrong?
Oil, I forget the term from my economics class, but OIL, is everywhere. Everyone has or wants oil. Romney has a plan to let oil benefit Americans, versus Obama's hide his head in the sand.

-John
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Really? That sounds like some contractor will get an outrageous package and take forever to complete the task. A lot of money? Yes. A lot of Jobs? No.

Petroleum and "energy independence" just don't belong in the same sentence. Sorry.
When I hear the sentance "we need to lessen our dependence on foriegn oil", if we lose the word foriegn we've got something.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
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You left out an important fact about that "veto".

There was a safety review in progress and the Repoublicans forced a vote before it was finished it so Obama vetoed.
As Romney said... I will try and make jobs... you go back to spending your time thinking about Obamacare.

-John
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
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You ignore me again on tax breaks. And how about those tax cuts to the wealthy and corporations how's that gonna help me? And how is building a pipeline from a foreign country even if it is Canada help us attain energy independence?? Doesn't energy independence imply we get all our energy from just the USA??
Obama even said he favors corporate tax breaks. The pipeline goes to us at least. And I do not see Canada as bad trading partner. Especially compared to Middle East countries. Construction of the pipeline is a great for jobs.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
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You ignore me again on tax breaks. And how about those tax cuts to the wealthy and corporations how's that gonna help me? And how is building a pipeline from a foreign country even if it is Canada help us attain energy independence?? Doesn't energy independence imply we get all our energy from just the USA??
Romney said he's not cutting taxes. Taxes are status quo.

We get to build that pipeline. A lot of laborers are going to get paid by foreign money.

-John
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,867
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Really? That sounds like some contractor will get an outrageous package and take forever to complete the task. A lot of money? Yes. A lot of Jobs? No.

Petroleum and "energy independence" just don't belong in the same sentence. Sorry.
Of course they do. There is a reason Oil is so popular. It is cheap, clean, energy.

Now is it as cheap as Nuclear, no.

But, America is full of oil, and Natural gas. We have been happy with Saudi Arabia using their stock, but at this point, we are hurting so much, we need to get in the game.

-John
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
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As far as I know there is no tax break for shipping jobs overseas. You can defer some taxes in income earned overseas (you can earn income without manufacturing via mechanisms like royalty and transfer pricing) but that is not a tax education you get from the actual outsourcing.

Michael
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
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Of course they do. There is a reason Oil is so popular. It is cheap, clean, energy.

Now is it as cheap as Nuclear, no.

But, America is full of oil, and Natural gas. We have been happy with Saudi Arabia using their stock, but at this point, we are hurting so much, we need to get in the game.

-John
Agree with the bolded and underlined part. Down here, we have a bunch of natural gas with Hayesville shale in North Louisiana and Barnett Shale in North Texas. We have so much that the price is less than 1/2 now than it was a couple years ago (from$ 7.97 per thousand cubic feet in 2008 to $2.59 in July 2012).

We need to use natural gas to develop our own economy.
 
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Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,867
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Companies are able to take deductions and reduce tax burdens they incur shutting down plants in the U.S.. They can also defer taxes they pay on income of the foreign subsidiaries giving a large tax savings.
Link to where the Government/Tax Code gives incentives to Corporations for moving jobs overseas.

-John
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
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Really? That sounds like some contractor will get an outrageous package and take forever to complete the task. A lot of money? Yes. A lot of Jobs? No.

Petroleum and "energy independence" just don't belong in the same sentence. Sorry.
The Keystone XL pipeline was going to bring oil from the Canadian tar sands to refineries in Texas. Obama stopped it. He also stopped deep water drilling in the gulf and his administration has also reduced the number of permits by half.

His administration also refuses to prosecute energy companies that kill endangered birds and bats in violation of 2 different treaties. The Eagle Protection Act and the Migratory Bird Treaty Act.
 

Cattlegod

Diamond Member
May 22, 2001
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Raise taxes on the rich and distribute it to the non rich is all i care about. Obama provides that.

Romney is a shill for trickle down economics which only works to a point, then it turns to an exploitation of the less lucky.

For what it's worth, I'm very well off.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
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The Keystone XL pipeline was going to bring oil from the Canadian tar sands to refineries in Texas. Obama stopped it. He also stopped deep water drilling in the gulf and his administration has also reduced the number of permits by half.
The vast majority of that tar sand oil will never touch an American end use. It's all going to be tankered out as refined product to central/south America. Presently US refineries benefit from the supply of that oil at lower cost than other sources because the Canadians can't send it anywhere else.

If anything completing Keystone XL will raise US fuel prices.

As for offshore drilling I think people should be bitching at BP for screwing up the party with their always reliable irresponsibility. Given their record they should be shut out of the US oil market altogether.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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I guess I'm not the Average American because when Romney talks, all I'm hearing is, "I plan on selling you something, but I'm not going to tell you what so just give me your money now, and you'll find out in about 2 years."
.
Sounds eeriely familar...like obamacare??? LOL
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
44,345
4,087
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You understand today, that Obama is not for the middle class; rather he is for the 47 million people that pay no money in taxes.
Lol, apparently you don't even know that's not true. o_O
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,867
3
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Raise taxes on the rich and distribute it to the non rich is all i care about. Obama provides that.

Romney is a shill for trickle down economics which only works to a point, then it turns to an exploitation of the less lucky.

For what it's worth, I'm very well off.
Send me some money!

-John
 

Jeffg010

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2008
3,438
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Agree with the bolded and underlined part. Down here, we have a bunch of natural gas with Hayesville shale in North Louisiana and Barnett Shale in North Texas. We have so much that the price is less than 1/2 now than it was a couple years ago.

We need to use natural gas to develop our own economy.
Agree on the natural gas. PA has a bunch but some PA representatives are against it. Also I have a coworker that is getting $5,000 a year for property rights. Hell sign me up for that.

The pipe line is a good thing it will create jobs. I would rather have it coming from Canada then middle east. It is a win all around.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,867
3
76
The vast majority of that tar sand oil will never touch an American end use. It's all going to be tankered out as refined product to central/south America. Presently US refineries benefit from the supply of that oil at lower cost than other sources because the Canadians can't send it anywhere else.

If anything completing Keystone XL will raise US fuel prices.

As for offshore drilling I think people should be bitching at BP for screwing up the party with their always reliable irresponsibility. Given their record they should be shut out of the US oil market altogether.
LOL, yeah, close out the multi-billion dollar oil company, and give it to Mrs. Obama's extremely reliable friend, Charlie.

-John
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,824
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Watched the debate with friends and was impressed at the opportunity for the two candidates to state their respective cases and to challenge their opponent. I believe this made for one of the best debates in any number of election cycles.

Those on this forum that have bought into the Democrat propaganda about Romney got a wake up call.

I found this live blog by leftist Andrew Sullivan essentially captured what happened -

10.31 pm. Look: you know how much I love the guy, and you know how much of a high information viewer I am, and I can see the logic of some of Obama's meandering, weak, professorial arguments. But this was a disaster for the president for the key people he needs to reach, and his effete, wonkish lectures may have jolted a lot of independents into giving Romney a second look.

Obama looked tired, even bored; he kept looking down; he had no crisp statements of passion or argument; he wasn't there. He was entirely defensive, which may have been the strategy. But it was the wrong strategy. At the wrong moment.

The person with authority on that stage was Romney - offered it by one of the lamest moderators ever, and seized with relish. This was Romney the salesman. And my gut tells me he sold a few voters on a change tonight. It's beyond depressing. But it's true.

There are two more debates left. I have experienced many times the feeling that Obama just isn't in it, that he's on the ropes and not fighting back, and then he pulls it out. He got a little better over time tonight. But he pulled every punch. Maybe the next two will undo some of the damage. But I have to say I think it was extensive.

10.30 pm. But Romney's closing statement - very, very vague and highly deceptive. And is it me, or does he even sound like Reagan? And his final statement is on defending Medicare! He's the protector of that entitlement, even as his actual plan is a radical overhaul of it.

10.29 pm. How is Obama's closing statement so fucking sad, confused and lame? He choked. He lost. He may even have lost the election tonight.

10.25 pm. The idea that the candidate of the current Republican party is portraying himself as the most willing to reach across the aisle is staggering. That he is more persuasive on this than the president is a staggering personal failure on Obama's part. And now Obama is saying he is the candidate of "saying no". Just staggering incompetence on his part.

10.23 pm. Lehrer has basically handed the moderation of this to the candidates, and Romney has taken command. And he has done so by speaking for three minutes less.

10.22 pm. The liar has managed to make Obama seem dishonest. In an act of will, Romney's lies are made effective.

10.19 pm. A reader writes:

My wife and I are feeling the same hysteria you're expressing. Romney, while coming off as more than a bit aggressive, is clear, authoritative, and on point. Obama is a confusing, meandering, stuttering mess.
It is going to be interesting to see Paul Ryan destroy Joe Biden next.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
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Agree on the natural gas. PA has a bunch but some PA representatives are against it. Also I have a coworker that is getting $5,000 a year for property rights. Hell sign me up for that.

The pipe line is a good thing it will create jobs. I would rather have it coming from Canada then middle east. It is a win all around.
The EPA report on fracking is due out in a year or two. Not all fracking is equal but if it turns up adverse effects to water tables the NG boom will turn into a bust very quickly.

The pipeline is a win for Canada, not so much for us.
 

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