The Feds preventing LA from protecting its coast.... again.

[Darwin333]

http://www.nola.com/news/gulf-oil-spill/index.ssf/2010/06/state_urges_federal_government.html

A day after being told by the federal government that the state had to halt its construction of an oil protection berm at the northern reaches of the Chandeleur Islands, Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal and other coastal leaders urged the Obama administration to let work continue as contractors shift their dredging to an alternative site over the next week.

Jindal said the state has agreed to move the dredges a mile farther offshore, but doesn't understand why dredging can't continue until that work is complete.



Officials with the Interior Department in Washington said they have already given the state more than a week to get sand from a more distant borrow site, and that continuing to dredge in the current location could pose long-term risks for the current barrier island system.

After a helicopter tour of the newly created land near the Chandeleur chain, which has been withering away due to a succession of hurricanes over the past decade, Jindal scoffed at the federal government's concerns.

"We've been losing 300 feet every year off these islands. Where has the federal government been?" he asked. "They haven't spent a dollar to protect these islands. We haven't heard from them before today about any concern about these islands or this area. All of a sudden now that we're building new land to protect our coast, they're worried about a hypothetical consequence?"

The state has pushed the plan to add the berms to help fight the encroaching oil from the BP oil disaster in the Gulf of Meixco.

The state's contractros were told by the Army Corps of Engineers to shut down dredging operations Tuesday evening at 6 p.m. Contractors are now working to extend the pipe a mile farther out to the alternative sand borrow site. Once that is done, likely within seven days, the state will be able to proceed with the dredging.

Garret Graves, Jindal's coastal advisor, said the current borrow site is permitted by the Corps and that moving to the more distant borrow sites was a "verbal condition" that the federal government gave after the permit was approved.

Jindal pointed out that the state is willing to backfill the hole they are digging now "within weeks, not months."

The concern with the current borrow site is that sand circulating in the island system could become trapped in the borrow pit, thus accelerating land loss throughout the Chandeleur chain. The federal government believes a site farther offshore would pose less of a risk.

Once again the Feds are preventing us from protecting our own coast. They never gave 2 shits about the miles and miles of wetlands we lose every year and they sure as hell never gave a shit about the Chandeleur Islands which would have completely ceased to exist in the next year or two anyway. They wouldn't give us our fair share of oil royalties so that we could save our own wetlands and they are still fucking us over on the royalties while not lifting a single finger to help protect those islands or any of the other vast stretches of wetlands that have disappeared over the last few decades. Now that we are fighting to save what we have left NOW they are concerned about them? This is some sort of sick joke, it really is. It seems that the Feds are hellbent on doing everything in their power to stop us from helping ourselves.

It has gone way beyond absurd, at this point it must either be intentional or complete negligence/incompetence. How can anyone that knows even a portion of what is really going on down here possibly argue otherwise?

 

[drebo]

Obama's fear is that if the States are capable of handling themselves, he loses power. He needs to keep this crisis going as absolutely long as possible in order to maximize how much power he can give himself.

I forsee another Patriot Act type bill not long after the spill is contained.

 

[werepossum]

I'll say it again: It's getting very difficult to believe this is simply incompetence. I'm becoming convinced that Obama is intentionally intervening to destroy the Gulf and the Gulf states' economies for his own political advantage.

 

[NoWhereM]

I'll say it again: It's getting very difficult to believe this is simply incompetence. I'm becoming convinced that Obama is intentionally intervening to destroy the Gulf and the Gulf states' economies for his own political advantage.

No offence, but what political advantage does Obama gain by either appearing to be, or actually being, incompetent?

Besides, everyone knows that President Obama has a schedule that he has to keep. He has things that have to get done whether the oil is or isn't still flowing.

http://politipage.com/2010/05/28/obamas-days/

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

If I was one of these governors I would go actively work on one of these projects and say either arrest me or fuck off when any fed told me to stop.

 

[heyheybooboo]

...
The concern with the current borrow site is that sand circulating in the island system could become trapped in the borrow pit, thus accelerating land loss throughout the Chandeleur chain.

Same principle why North Carolina does not allow groins, jetties and hard structures along the outer banks.

Sorry that the science of building an ocean groin escapes you folks, but don't let that interfere with your bitching, complaining and ranting.

You should probably save up (the bitching, complaining and ranting, that is) for the next tropical depression or hurricane, anyway.





--

 

[RedCOMET]

Another question.. and this is not a trick question....

" Is it easier to demolish a oil protection berm after it has done its job, or is it easier to clean oil from marshlands, inland water ways and from the animals that live?"

Won't somebody think of the natural resources and the wild life.

 

[Throckmorton]

I'm not sure a berm is going to do anything. Water flows around berms.


This isn't obstructionism... It's preventing Jindal from causing more environmental destruction in the process of scoring political points.

Jindal said the state has agreed to move the dredges a mile farther offshore, but doesn't understand why dredging can't continue until that work is complete.

Officials with the Interior Department in Washington said they have already given the state more than a week to get sand from a more distant borrow site, and that continuing to dredge in the current location could pose long-term risks for the current barrier island system.

I see, minutes matter, except when the Interior Department tells you to dredge elsewhere so you don't cause massive environmental destruction, in which case you delay to make political hay.

Bobby "something called volcano monitoring" Jindal is a hack.

 

[Throckmorton]

Looks like there is agreement with my expert geographer's opinion

http://e360.yale.edu/content/feature.msp?id=2282

Indeed, since the Louisiana berm will not be continuous, there is a strong likelihood that oil will flow in through the gaps, then possibly become trapped in wetlands.

 

[RedCOMET]

Interesting that officicials in the Interior Dept. told Jindal to dredge someplace else. Why wasn't it in the National Incident Commander or his representative that told Jindal to stop? Shouldn't the NIC and his leadership team be telling people on what do to with respect to the oil?

 

[dahunan]

preventing Jindal from doing anything would be highly advisable to protect the whole of humanity... miserable charlatan loudmouth

 

[Jaskalas]

No offence, but what political advantage does Obama gain by either appearing to be, or actually being, incompetent?

He is an acceptable sacrifice for the D's to destroy the south economically. Therefore stand in the way of protecting it every inch of the way.

 

[werepossum]

No offence, but what political advantage does Obama gain by either appearing to be, or actually being, incompetent?

Besides, everyone knows that President Obama has a schedule that he has to keep. He has things that have to get done whether the oil is or isn't still flowing.

http://politipage.com/2010/05/28/obamas-days/

From looking incompetent, none. But from facilitating the destruction of coastal fisheries, wetlands, and tourist locations, he might well make oil scary enough to sell his Cap and Tax plan, one of the Holy Grails of the progressive movement. Cap and Tax would allow the government to set quotas on each industry or even each business, thus choosing winners and losers. It would allow government to decide what constitutes an acceptable carbon offset, thus choosing winners and losers. It would give the government a rationale to take over the energy companies as well as chronic polluters. It would make personal transportation too expensive for many, thus moving people into easily managed public transportation. It would make home conditioning energy too expensive for many, thus creating another justification for government transfer of wealth from the haves to the have nots (ironically, some of which would be newly created by the same government.) This doesn't have to be a Doctor Evil thing either; assuming he is a believer in CAGM he could easily justify sacrificing a pawn (i.e. the Gulf) to save his king (i.e. the world) by getting the USA off of fossil fuels.

LOL at Obama days. If Tiger Woods had played as much golf as Obama he wouldn't be sleeping on the couch - he wouldn't have had time to cheat!

 

[Vic]

I'll say it again: It's getting very difficult to believe this is simply incompetence. I'm becoming convinced that Obama is intentionally intervening to destroy the Gulf and the Gulf states' economies for his own political advantage.

You probably also believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories...

Don't treat politics like a religion. It's not. In politics, there is no god, there is no devil, and no one is all-knowing or all-powerful.

 

[werepossum]

You probably also believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories...

Don't treat politics like a religion. It's not. In politics, there is no god, there is no devil, and no one is all-knowing or all-powerful.

Um, no, I don't. I leave that to the far left - like Rosie O'Donnell.

How can one man, even given that he's a community organizer turned senator who never before had to exercise authority beyond voting "present", manage to surround himself with only incompetents? How can a president who is so thin-skinned be so oblivious to the damage that his nominal underlings are doing, playing golf and partying whilst his administration does everything in its power to hinder if not destroy efforts to stop the oil from polluting our beaches, fisheries, wetlands?

I'm not saying it CAN'T be honest incompetence, mind you. I'm just saying it's getting hard to believe.

 

[Vic]

Um, no, I don't. I leave that to the far left - like Rosie O'Donnell.

How can one man, even given that he's a community organizer turned senator who never before had to exercise authority beyond voting "present", manage to surround himself with only incompetents? How can a president who is so thin-skinned be so oblivious to the damage that his nominal underlings are doing, playing golf and partying whilst his administration does everything in its power to hinder if not destroy efforts to stop the oil from polluting our beaches, fisheries, wetlands?

I'm not saying it CAN'T be honest incompetence, mind you. I'm just saying it's getting hard to believe.

psst... you sound exactly like any left-winger democrat during the Bush admin. I mean, seriously, your arguments are identical. "George Bush doesn't like black people."
It's pathetic how you imagine yourself different from them just because you've affiliated yourself with a different label.

 

[werepossum]

psst... you sound exactly like any left-winger democrat during the Bush admin. I mean, seriously, your arguments are identical. "George Bush doesn't like black people."
It's pathetic how you imagine yourself different from them just because you've affiliated yourself with a different label.

Besides the amazingly obvious fact that I never stated "Barrack Obama doesn't like X people" as a reason for his actions, which would be required for my arguments to be identical, I actually supported Obama on this at first. I supported him when he didn't immediately take over the operation, thinking that BP is the one with the real expertise. I supported his six month ban on deep water drilling - and got totally owned by Darwin (and admitted it) when we learned that Obama had blatantly lied about his report being reviewed by the National Academy of Engineering. Even when it was obvious that Obama had seriously dropped the ball, I pointed out that even if he had reacted optimally, the actual effect would have been little different. I supported (and still support) his extortion of BP to fund the escrow account. But at some point he loses me. He has turned down offers of help (and allowed or forced BP to do the same) from other countries, and continues to do so. He has refused to move any of the two thousand skimmer barges to the Gulf to join the twelve there. He has shut down the twelve skimmer barges already operating. He has dragged his feet for weeks before granting permission to build sand berms - and once he did agree he promptly shut them down again. He has made no effort to purchase the miles of floating oil boom in warehouses, nor made any move to pressure BP to do the same. He has constrained BP's choices in mediation techniques. And there are myriad other ways he has either failed to lead, or actively obstructed the mediation efforts.

Now some of those I can accept were honest concerns. Some I can accept may be sheer incompetence by underlings, which through Obama's own incompetence he has failed to rectify. But it becomes increasingly difficult for me to believe that this is JUST incompetence.

 

[vhx]

I'll say it again: It's getting very difficult to believe this is simply incompetence. I'm becoming convinced that Obama is intentionally intervening to destroy the Gulf and the Gulf states' economies for his own political advantage.

It certainly is starting to look that way more and more every day. Given they have been trying to block every effort of prevention and cleanup, I don't see how this can be shear incompetence.

 

[Darwin333]

I'm not sure a berm is going to do anything. Water flows around berms.

Experts and scientists that have lived down here for most of their lives disagree with you. Some experts, mostly those that have never actually seen the wetlands or the "islands" in question agtree with you. Personally, this is much better than the "other plan" which is do absolutely nothing.

This isn't obstructionism... It's preventing Jindal from causing more environmental destruction in the process of scoring political points.

Bullshit. I have fished off those islands for 30 years. For 30 years I have watched those islands disappear to the point that they are now. There is barely a splotch of land sticking just above the water today. We have been begging for our fair share of oil royalties for at least 15-20 years so that WE can fix/rebuild things like those islands and not once has any Federal agency gave a shit. Matter of fact, the next big hurricane that comes through will finish those islands off and they will cease to exist.

But NOW they care about them when we are in a war to save our coast? Seriously? They don't care enough to prevent their destruction, which like I said is all but inevitable the next time a hurricane passes over them or within a few years even without one but they care enough to prevent us from protecting what WILL be here next year.

You guys really don't know what the reality of the situation is. I don't care what you think you know but do a few google searches on "Louisiana's disappearing wetlands" and exactly what has been done about it. If you actually care I can recommend a few good books and a very documentary about it.

I see, minutes matter, except when the Interior Department tells you to dredge elsewhere so you don't cause massive environmental destruction, in which case you delay to make political hay.

Bobby "something called volcano monitoring" Jindal is a hack.

Could you please elaborate on what "massive environmental damage" you are speaking of? Or is the problem really what letter people have behind their name? Funny how its all the supporters of one party that approve of the obstruction for reasons they know nothing about and at the great detriment to our environment (the part of it that can be saved in the first place).

 

[Darwin333]

To add some context to the thread about the Chandeleur Island Chain.

USGS pics of the islands in 2001 and pics of the islands in 2005 after Katrina.

http://coastal.er.usgs.gov/hurricanes/katrina/photo-comparisons/chandeleur.html

The Chandeleur Islands create a buffer zone between the Gulf and the mainland, protecting the New Orleans area from the wind and storm surge associated with hurricanes. With nine spindly legs securely anchored to pilings and supported by a web of diagonal braces, the third Chandeleur Island Lighthouse has managed to withstand several hurricanes and storms during its lifetime of more than a century, including 1969’s deadly hurricane Camille. In September of 1998, Hurricane Georges impacted the Chandeleur Islands with winds of 100-110 mph and a storm surge of 10-12 feet. The overwash from the slow moving hurricane cut what was an almost continuous strand of land into several small pieces. The land surrounding the lighthouse at the northern end of the island was washed away, leaving the lighthouse standing in open water.

Guess how much effort, concern and care the Feds have shown in rebuilding them or protecting what is left? As I keep repeating, the state has been begging for our fair share of oil royalties, the same that all other states enjoy, so that the state can rebuild them. We aren’t asking for a handout, just what is fair so that WE can help ourselves. No one cared enough 5 years ago to do that but NOW that they are damn near a lost cause (and certainly will be if history is any indicator) now they care? When this is all over and they disappear anyway where will all that “care” be?

For at least a decade we have been losing an area the size of a football field of wetlands every 38 minutes from everyday erosion. That’s not counting the oil or hurricanes. 115 square miles of wetland lost every single year, even more when we take a hit from a hurricane. They have never cared before yet we are supposed to believe they care now?

http://marine.usgs.gov/fact-sheets/LAwetlands/isles.gif

We lose 115 square miles of wetlands a year, every year and even more when we take a hit from a hurricane, yet no one ever gave a shit. They still don’t, the concern, and that includes most in this thread, has everything to do with their “club” and nothing to do with our environment.

In the spring of 2005, the lighthouse was standing in three feet of water. Hurricane Katrina, which struck later that year, toppled the exposed lighthouse. When a research team visited the islands in the spring of 2006, the depth of the water where the lighthouse formerly stood was found to be seventeen feet. The team could find no trace of the lighthouse even though the water was quite clear.

Pic of the old Chandeleur Lighthouse back when they islands where actually islands, notice the plant life and size of the land.
http://www.uscg.mil/history/weblighthouses/chandeleurisland_1_sm.jpg
Pic of the lighthouse in 91 and in 2005. Today it is open water.
http://www.thelighthousepeople.com/Louisiana/chandeleur_la1.html

USGS pics of the islands on 2001 and pics of the islands in 2005 after Katrina.
http://coastal.er.usgs.gov/hurricanes/katrina/photo-comparisons/chandeleur.html


More pics
http://www.nwrc.usgs.gov/hurricane/postivanphotos.htm

 

[Darwin333]

Looks like there is agreement with my expert geographer's opinion

http://e360.yale.edu/content/feature.msp?id=2282

Indeed, since the Louisiana berm will not be continuous, there is a strong likelihood that oil will flow in through the gaps, then possibly become trapped in wetlands.

So what we really need to do is tear down what remaining barrier islands we have left that way they don't trap all the oil in the wetlands because it flows right back out when it gets in there. Its not like it gets caught in the marshes or wetlands or anything like that, we should be opening up the waterways to get as much possible flow from the gulf as possible, right?

Its also not any easier to ensure oil doesn't flow through much smaller inlets than it is to protect very large inlets with ineffective boom (that we can't get anyway). None of that oil will wash up on those sand berms via wave action either, I know its waves that carry the oil over the booms but oil doesn't like sand so it will avoid it. Plus, its not like they can be quickly removed to increase the flow of water IF negative effects start happening or anything. Then again, if we have to wait for Federal approval to remove the berms then the "it will take forever to remove them" argument does have merit.

For fucks sake, we are building these berms in places that land used to exist, basically replacing a small section of what has been eroded away over the last few decades.

Still, the bottom line is quite simple. BP is not protecting our waterways, wetlands, inland waters, marshes etc... The Feds are not protecting our waterways, wetlands, inland waters, marshes etc... The State and local governments are the only ones actually attempting to prevent oil from destroying the above and the state and local governments have been met with nothing but delay and obstruction from both BP and the Feds.

Lead, follow or get the fuck out of the way. BP nor the Feds have done or are doing the first 2, its time to just get the fuck out of the way. When the CG says they can't get in touch with the vessels supporting the cleanup and it doesn't know where the assets are yet amazingly WE can get in touch with them and WE can keep track of who is supposed to be where..... Evidently we have the only CG vessels and staff in the nation that don't have these things called radios that boats use for communications. Or maybe the boaters who are out there working to cleanup the spill haven't filled out the proper paperwork in triplicate, initialed in the right spot, and sent it to the right agency?


BTW, those suction barges everyone made fun of us and Jindal for, have been the most effective asset at cleaning the oil out of the inland waters to date. Of course we wouldn't have nearly as much oil there if our plans where approved by the Feds a month sooner (to be fair, that is speculation. Chances are they would have shut it down after they got started and the oil would have gotten in while the dredges sat idle). I'll bet you real money that these berms are more effective (if we actually get them built) than any method that BP or the Feds use to protect those areas.

 

[heyheybooboo]

The 'Move' of the Millennium:
Moving the Cape Hatteras Lighthouse

It only took sixty (20 of which were serious) years of planning.




--

 

[OutHouse]

i dont understand why put effort and money into protecting those islands from naturally occurring erosion.

 

[heyheybooboo]

i dont understand why put effort and money into protecting those islands from naturally occurring erosion.

It would be fair to say the loss of wetlands and barrier islands is not "natural" because of all the 'engineering' done up the Mississippi River.

The 'natural sediments' no longer reach the GoM.




--

 

[piasabird]

Beware of building a house upon the sand.

(Read your bible)
From a Sunday School Song: It has a deeper meaning but that is ok.
. . .
The rains came down and water came up,
The rains came down and water came up,
And the house built upon the sand washed away . . .

There have been some casinos that were built upon boat like structures built on manmade inlets to keep them safer. This uses the same type of principle. Just change the land/ocean/river to skirt the law.