The Feds preventing LA from protecting its coast.... again.

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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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i dont understand why put effort and money into protecting those islands from naturally occurring erosion.


We aren't trying to protect the islands. Quite the opposite in fact, we want to use the islands and man made berms in between them to protect the wetlands and inland waters on the other side of the islands. It would be an actual physical barrier that a majority of the oil would hit, leaving a much smaller "water route" to get into the inland sensitive areas that are extremely hard and often impossible to clean once oiled. It is vastly easier to patrol and skim a single (or few_) areas that are a few hundred feet wide that the oil can enter those sensitive areas than it is to patrol and skim a few dozen miles of open water that the oil can enter into.

The islands are basically being used as a sacrificial barrier because it is much easier to clean oiled sand from the environment (scoop it up onto a barge and dispose of it). It is the same tactic as using booms except this is built to 6 feet above the water so it might actually be effective whereas boom has not been.

That is the irony of the entire situation with them shutting down the dredges. The Islands will not be there in a few years, period. With or without the oil they are disappearing every day and without major funding and engineering that will take the COE too long to do they can not be saved. The inland waters that are home to one of the most diverse wildlife preserves in the nation will be there if we can stop the oil, so why are they preventing us from stopping the oil to save islands that are basically already gone? It makes no sense whatsoever which is why we are pissed off.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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moar lol rage. There is a reason for this beyond fucking over the southern states.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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moar lol rage. There is a reason for this beyond fucking over the southern states.

moar bullshit from someone that doesn't know what they are talking about!!

I couldn't help but notice that you left that "reason" out of your post. Please, enlighten us. Go do your google search so you can pretend you know what your talking about and I will be happy to shoot you down again. I am hoping you at least make it a little challenging this time but I really don't see how you can.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
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Well the reason they didnt want the sand bars made is they didn't want the oil being pushed onto another state. Your states right to not have oil on its beaches and in its wetlands does not trump another states rights for the same thing. Sorry.

This was never going to go well... I would just move if I were you.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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It would be fair to say the loss of wetlands and barrier islands is not "natural" because of all the 'engineering' done up the Mississippi River.

The 'natural sediments' no longer reach the GoM.




--

Exactly. Well, a lot of the sediment still reaches the GoM but it does so at the end of the river and dispersed into the actual GoM instead of spilling over the banks and being deposited into the marshes and swamps and barrier islands etc... We still have to dredge the Mississippi though and we throw all that sediment away (would be a gnat on a horses ass of what is needed anyway). That is the real engineering challenge of rebuilding them, how to get the rich sediment to where it is needed.

The point still remains, the islands are a lost cause. They will be gone in a few years regardless of what we do, why not at least try and save what will be here in a few years? If we waste time and money then we waste time and money, there isn't another "plan" in place. There is no where else the "time" would be better spent because they are doing nothing to prevent the oil from getting into the inland areas as it is. As far as the money, its BPs and fuck em, I could give a shit if they lose money trying to protect our coast.

I can promise you that the alternative, which is doing nothing, WILL fail. If any of you have a better idea I am all ears and I will get it to the parish presidents within hours if it sounds halfway plausible.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,330
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Well the reason they didnt want the sand bars made is they didn't want the oil being pushed onto another state. Your states right to not have oil on its beaches and in its wetlands does not trump another states rights for the same thing. Sorry.

This was never going to go well... I would just move if I were you.

So wait a minute, is oil allergic to sand or something? The oil is floating in the water going with the "motion of the ocean" until it sees sand and then the oil says "fuck that shit" and high tails it the other way?

WTF are you talking about? The oil washes up on the sand, it doesn't just go somewhere else. Or are these sand berms, that are replacing natural islands that have been there for centuries, going to somehow change the currents in the Gulf of Mexico? Make the wind blow in another direction? Fuck with the gravitational pull of the moon???

How exactly is creating a physical barrier blocking the oil from entering our wetlands going to make the oil go to an entirely different state?

This was never going to go well... I would just move if I were you.

I am sure you would because that is the type of person you seem to be. We don't give up quite that easy down here. We will not quit, we will not move and we will not back down. It simply isn't in our nature to do so. You can wave your white flag of surrender all you want, we are gonna get shit done down here. If it takes the cajuns blockading the LOOP then I can promise you they will do just that before they give up.

If I haven't said this to you yet, then from the very bottom of my heart I would like to say fuck you and everyone that looks like you. You are worse than the slime that caused this mess in the first place.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
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So wait a minute, is oil allergic to sand or something? The oil is floating in the water going with the "motion of the ocean" until it sees sand and then the oil says "fuck that shit" and high tails it the other way?

WTF are you talking about? The oil washes up on the sand, it doesn't just go somewhere else. Or are these sand berms, that are replacing natural islands that have been there for centuries, going to somehow change the currents in the Gulf of Mexico? Make the wind blow in another direction? Fuck with the gravitational pull of the moon???

How exactly is creating a physical barrier blocking the oil from entering our wetlands going to make the oil go to an entirely different state?



I am sure you would because that is the type of person you seem to be. We don't give up quite that easy down here. We will not quit, we will not move and we will not back down. It simply isn't in our nature to do so. You can wave your white flag of surrender all you want, we are gonna get shit done down here. If it takes the cajuns blockading the LOOP then I can promise you they will do just that before they give up.

If I haven't said this to you yet, then from the very bottom of my heart I would like to say fuck you and everyone that looks like you. You are worse than the slime that caused this mess in the first place.

giant sand bars help move create currents so the oil goes with it. At any rate I'm not an expert on the fluid mechanics behind all of that and I'm sure you aren't either I'm merely telling you what an expert on NPR said.

I know you keep talking about "blocking the loop" until the country gives you what you want but you will just be called a terrorist and marked for death.

Yes I would leave instead of exposing myself to all of those chemicals. I r Dum? :D

Really Im worst then the oil spill? hahahahah RAGE ():)
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
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giant sand bars help move create currents so the oil goes with it. At any rate I'm not an expert on the fluid mechanics behind all of that and I'm sure you aren't either I'm merely telling you what an expert on NPR said.

I know you keep talking about "blocking the loop" until the country gives you what you want but you will just be called a terrorist and marked for death.

Yes I would leave instead of exposing myself to all of those chemicals. I r Dum? :D

Really Im worst then the oil spill? hahahahah RAGE ():)

You could at least try to not sound like a 14 year old when you post. Darwin has posted probably the most sound, informed, realistic viewpoints of what is ACTUALLY going on down there, since he IS there and is actively involved in the cleanup. You have no informed viewpoint other than "what an expert on NPR" said. It is blindingly clear that have no idea what you are talking about, and only care about your own political beliefs and nothing about the actual reality of what is going on. It's obvious, and quite sad, honestly.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
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its not obvious. Whats obvious is peoples judgments are clouded with emotion and they are willing to jump and do anything without thinking of the possible consequences. This is what desperation does.
 

NoWhereM

Senior member
Oct 15, 2007
543
0
0
You could at least try to not sound like a 14 year old when you post. Darwin has posted probably the most sound, informed, realistic viewpoints of what is ACTUALLY going on down there, since he IS there and is actively involved in the cleanup. You have no informed viewpoint other than "what an expert on NPR" said. It is blindingly clear that have no idea what you are talking about, and only care about your own political beliefs and nothing about the actual reality of what is going on. It's obvious, and quite sad, honestly.

Perfectly said.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
8,287
2,385
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its not obvious. Whats obvious is peoples judgments are clouded with emotion and they are willing to jump and do anything without thinking of the possible consequences. This is what desperation does.


You might be right but the feds should be managing it better and coordinating between states who are trying to do the best they can to reduce damage.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
So wait a minute, is oil allergic to sand or something? The oil is floating in the water going with the "motion of the ocean" until it sees sand and then the oil says "fuck that shit" and high tails it the other way?

WTF are you talking about? The oil washes up on the sand, it doesn't just go somewhere else. Or are these sand berms, that are replacing natural islands that have been there for centuries, going to somehow change the currents in the Gulf of Mexico? Make the wind blow in another direction? Fuck with the gravitational pull of the moon???

How exactly is creating a physical barrier blocking the oil from entering our wetlands going to make the oil go to an entirely different state?



I am sure you would because that is the type of person you seem to be. We don't give up quite that easy down here. We will not quit, we will not move and we will not back down. It simply isn't in our nature to do so. You can wave your white flag of surrender all you want, we are gonna get shit done down here. If it takes the cajuns blockading the LOOP then I can promise you they will do just that before they give up.

If I haven't said this to you yet, then from the very bottom of my heart I would like to say fuck you and everyone that looks like you. You are worse than the slime that caused this mess in the first place.

First we have oil that goes in through holes in berms but can't go back out through those holes, now we have oil that avoids the berms (i.e. islands) altogether and heads for another state? Some weird physics in the Gulf.

Wait! I get it! Oil washes up on beaches, but ONLY as long as there isn't water on the other side of the beaches, which is why it won't wash up on the barrier islands but will wash up along Florida's coast since there is n- Okay, I don't got it.
 
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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
First we have oil that goes in through holes in berms but can't go back out through those holes, now we have oil that avoids the berms (i.e. islands) altogether and heads for another state? Some weird physics in the Gulf.

Wait! I get it! Oil washes up on beaches, but ONLY as long as there isn't water on the other side of the beaches, which is why it won't wash up on the barrier islands but will wash up along Florida's coast since there is n- Okay, I don't got it.

AFAIK the problem isn't oil washing up on beaches, but oil flowing into wetlands-- Or as conservatives refer to them when us liberal environmentalists are trying to protect them, "swamps".

Wave and tidal physics are pretty complex. It's not just water moving in and out. There's a constant movement along the coastline in addition to the in-out waves and tides, which is why you end up drifting sideways if you float in the ocean. So I can see how oil would force its way through a berm, then get stuck behind it due to the shape of the berm and the wetland bathymetry.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,330
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giant sand bars help move create currents so the oil goes with it. At any rate I'm not an expert on the fluid mechanics behind all of that and I'm sure you aren't either I'm merely telling you what an expert on NPR said.

I know you keep talking about "blocking the loop" until the country gives you what you want but you will just be called a terrorist and marked for death.

Yes I would leave instead of exposing myself to all of those chemicals. I r Dum? :D


I started typing a long post about the people you are condemning. How they are the most decent and hardworking people you will ever have the privilege of knowing, but I realized that it would be completely lost on a couillon like you.

Really Im worst then the oil spill? hahahahah RAGE ():)
Yes, because you advocate standing in the way of us preventing damage from the spill. The spill was negligence, what you are doing is intentional. As my buddy Cahoui would say "Embrasse mon tcheue, couillon". You ain't seen rage yet couillon, only hard work and determined people.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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Nobody is standing in your way. Emotion should not be in science and if the scientists think its a bad idea and needs more research then I'm going to side with the scientists.

Dump on anyone you want including me, I don't care. It doesn't take a great mind to be all up in arms over a disaster and focus anger on the first person you THINK messed up. You guys are in the fog of war right now and rash choices never did any good.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,330
126
Nobody is standing in your way.

How about oil suction barges? Is the science still out on those too? I mean they have only been successfully used to actually remove the oil from the environment without using toxic chemicals on other oil spills before but did we had to do a study for a month or 2 to see if they would work? Even then, we had to build our own and even then they shut them down for bullshit reasons.

Everyone down here, including every local government leader, the state leaders, our state reps and senators, the folks in Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida ALL think that the Feds are standing in the way of the cleanup and mitigation effort. But hey, you probably heard someone on NPR say that isn't true so all of those folks on the frontlines are wrong and you are right. Rather odd, wouldn't you agree Couillon?

Of course we have been over this before, you just refuse to admit the reality of the situation. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter if you stick your fingers in your ears and jump around screaming nah-nah-nah so that you can't hear, it still doesn't change reality.

Emotion should not be in science and if the scientists think its a bad idea and needs more research then I'm going to side with the scientists.

We have the best possible experts in the world when it comes to Louisianas wetlands and inland waterways. They have experience with, you know the thing they are actually talking about. Imagine that, but wait, some expert on NPR who has probably never stepped foot in the state somehow knows better than all of the experts down here.

Dump on anyone you want including me,

I "dump" on you because you are ignorantly speaking on a subject that you obviously know nothing about. Yet you continue to jump up and down saying that you are right and everybody else is wrong. No one that has even a smidgen of perspective agrees with you, most people take that as a sign that they are wrong. Not Couillon though, you insist on making foolish statements that others who don't know any better might believe, so I insist on pointing out your foolish statements for exactly what they are. For the most part they are complete bullshit that you probably pulled straight from your ass. I don't even think you glance at the headlines you know so little about what you are trying to speak about.

I don't care.
Of course you don't care, you don't care about the tens of thousands of good hardworking people that have been and continue to get screwed, you don't care about the richest and most diverse regions of wildlife are being destroyed, you don't about an entire states economy being impacted (as long as we keep pumping your oil that is, ooh you get all pissy when we talk about shutting down tankers or the LOOP), you don't seem to care about anything other than yourself. You are a selfish coward who would rather impede and obstruct and then run away instead of trying to help your neighbor. I do care. That is the difference between you and me.

It doesn't take a great mind to be all up in arms over a disaster and focus anger on the first person you THINK messed up.

I can and have proven it time and time again. I won't bother trying to prove it to you because you outright ignore it. The really pathetic part of that is the reason you ignore it, you ignore it because you think it might hurt your political club. If GWB was still in office I bet dollars to doughnuts you would be on "my side".

You guys are in the fog of war right now and rash choices never did any good.

So we are in a war, which you agree with and so does Obama. Yet you think that "no choice" instead of "well thought out and proven tactics that you chose to call rash choices" is how you win a war? Indecisive action, lack of timely action, lack of coordination, lack of logistics/knowledge of your assets, lack of the proper assets, lack of leadership are all things we are dealing with right now. They are also all perfect ways to lose a war. You can not win a war doing all (or most of the time ANY) of the above. Your plan is to wait until the invaders have already conquered you to act because you might have a better plan then. Except its too late to implement your better plan and the war is already over. That is ignorant.

And there is nothing rash about anything we are doing. Its been talked about for months because thats how long we have been asking for it.Yes, we are fighting in a war and we shall continue to do so. We are the only ones that seem to realize that this is a war even though Obama said exactly that but like I said, we are strong willed and hard working folk down here. If you won't help us get it done then we will do it on our own. We sure could use the help but you won't find these cajuns and coonasses sitting around doing nothing waiting for help to come. When the Feds obstruct us it only strengthens our resolve.

Yes, we are fighting a war and we will win it. To us, failure is simply not an option.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,330
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AFAIK the problem isn't oil washing up on beaches, but oil flowing into wetlands-- Or as conservatives refer to them when us liberal environmentalists are trying to protect them, "swamps".

Wave and tidal physics are pretty complex. It's not just water moving in and out. There's a constant movement along the coastline in addition to the in-out waves and tides, which is why you end up drifting sideways if you float in the ocean. So I can see how oil would force its way through a berm, then get stuck behind it due to the shape of the berm and the wetland bathymetry.

I can understand the point being made but we have a much more detailed plan than simply building the berms.

First of all, lets assume what you said is exactly what winds up happening. I don't see much oil flowing OUT of the inland waterways. Once it gets in it finds something to stick to (usually vegetation of some sort) and stays put. That is why it is so hard to clean them once they get oiled. So even if we do "trap" oil inside of it the damage will be no worse than if we had just let the oil move freely into them. The same amount of damage will be done and maybe we help out the rest of the Gulf by trapping some of the oil in one spot.

OTOH, if we can reduce the size of the waterways the oil has to enter those inland areas in the first place we can effectively fight the oil from getting in. A decent portion will wash up on the berms which can be easily cleaned and anything that gets passed the skimmers and multiple lines of boom (of which we will need much less and can therefore layer it) we have suction barges that we built ourselves that will be waiting to suck up that oil. Might even be able to use some of the berms that don't get oiled to rebuild some of the barrier islands on BPs dime.

We can remove small amounts of oil from the inland waters very quickly and rather easily if it is all coming in from the same (or a few) small openings. We have hundreds of guys on jackups and regular barges with home depot wet vacs saving miles and miles of wetlands right now on top of the actual suction barges (that we had to build ourselves). Believe it or not but it is working better than anything tried to date and it doesn't involve the use of toxic chemicals. Its the same technique the Saudi's used with great success and imo they should have dozens of real tankers out in the Gulf doing the same thing. Kostners machine sounds like it would work great on the skimmers but the tankers wouldn't even need that. They can hold anywhere from tens of thousands of barrels to millions of barrels, offload it in storage tanks (got plenty already here for the oil/gas industry) and go back to work. They can separate it on land while the boats are working.

This is all stuff we could have done 6 weeks ago and we wouldn't be facing near the disaster we are now. The problem with all of the above, its expensive and BP doesn't want to pay the bill and the CG is still allowing BP to run the show. That is the sole reason that most of the above has not happened yet and it is (or should be) a crime.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,330
126
First we have oil that goes in through holes in berms but can't go back out through those holes, now we have oil that avoids the berms (i.e. islands) altogether and heads for another state? Some weird physics in the Gulf.

Wait! I get it! Oil washes up on beaches, but ONLY as long as there isn't water on the other side of the beaches, which is why it won't wash up on the barrier islands but will wash up along Florida's coast since there is n- Okay, I don't got it.

Its all absurd and it has been from the very beginning. They are talking about possibly stopping the suction barges AGAIN and making them install handrails around the entire barge. You just can't make stuff like this up.

BP is in "cutting costs" mode so some of the guys are starting to say that the CG, COE, EPA, etc are shutting down the expensive assets for a few days here and there to save BP money. I don't buy that at all and it probably doesn't save BP money anyway but that is how absurd some of their actions have been. The media, at least from what I have seen, hasn't been paying nearly the attention to the entire situation as it deserves or maybe some of this would be fixed by now (especially the command structure). Maybe I am wrong on that and they have given it the attention it deserves and actions simply weren't taken to fix the problem.

At the end of the day its all friggin political and that is what really sucks.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
actions simply weren't taken to fix the problem.

I dont have time right now to respond to all your stuff but I did read it. I will say that there is no "fixing the problem" This thing is fucked for decades and it has nothing to do with the federal response. Can you find instances where the fed fucked up? Yes I'm sure you can. Can you find instances where going down another path MAY have been better? Yes probably. But lets not forget what and who is ultimately responsible for this disaster...

Again, I would leave the area.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
It is time for all states to tell the federal government to go secure the border or to shut up.