The F-35 is a piece of garbage!

[norseamd]

Yeah, because as we all know the Russians lead the world in electronics and have long dominated the west with there superior avionics.

Well they lead the world with their anti-air capability, but I dunno if they are as good or better than US in ground radars, and I know their aircraft avionics can not even touch American aircraft avionics. Americans, Russians, Japanese, Chinese, and Indians all have AESA radars however.

 

[Brian Stirling]

Really? I bet it's the most capable A2A platform without an export ban.

Didn't say otherwise!

Its actual performance in an A2A engagement have yet to be tested and I'm going to guess that wont happen for many years. The design choices appear to have favored stealth and sensors over maneuvering capability and though there are lots of reasons to think that might be the right choice the real test is an actual A2A engagement.


Brian

 

[Brian Stirling]

That's whats known in the newspaper industry as "misleading tabloid bullshit"

That requires the reader to put zero effort into understanding the program. It's like Donald Trumps speech writer wrote this article. This article is co-authored by Kanye West's cousin Marvin. This article should come with a coloring book

Every radar in every combat aircraft in the world today occasionally requires a reboot. A Raptor requires reboots. F-15's. Hornets. F-16s. All of them.



Oh Really?
Blocks 1A,1b,2A,2B,3i,3F? guess that was too complicated to toss in a "reader rage click bait article"

Every damn active program on the planet is in development dealing with the battle between bug fixes and releases bringing new capability. The F-15 platform is 44 years old. It's still in development.

That entire article is basically some intern helping an editor fill a fucking quota. Zero effort went into the writing of that article. Zero effort went into checking facts or even having a basic understanding of the F-35 or ANY modern military aircraft.
The fact that they make no mention that the crap they are covering have already been fixed....




All these little bullshit article are being driven by people whose business is to create controversy.

It is stunning to think that more than 40 years later the F-15 is still being upgraded. But then, the nearly 60 year old B-52 is also -- still in development. Although I'd guess the majority of the upgrades and development of the B-52 is in the ECM systems -- ie, mostly software.


Brian

 

[Brian Stirling]

Well they lead the world with their anti-air capability, but I dunno if they are as good or better than US in ground radars, and I know their aircraft avionics can not even touch American aircraft avionics. Americans, Russians, Japanese, Chinese, and Indians all have AESA radars however.

Russia has been at the forefront of anti-air since, well, Francis Gary Powers and have needed to in order to have any chance against superior western AC. Russia has also been among the worlds leading supplier of anti-air for 5 decades. They have also had a few extremely gifted electrical engineers and scientists like Lev Sergeyevich Termen -- creator of the Theremin and developer of some pretty incredible spy gadgets.

But, the shear scope and volume of western tech has greatly surpassed the work done by the east and there avionics have always been a step or three behind us. There efforts have mostly been in the airframe and in that area they may well be the best in the world.


Brian

 

[norseamd]

Russia has been at the forefront of anti-air since, well, Francis Gary Powers and have needed to in order to have any chance against superior western AC. Russia has also been among the worlds leading supplier of anti-air for 5 decades. They have also had a few extremely gifted electrical engineers and scientists like Lev Sergeyevich Termen -- creator of the Theremin and developer of some pretty incredible spy gadgets.

But, the shear scope and volume of western tech has greatly surpassed the work done by the east and there avionics have always been a step or three behind us. There efforts have mostly been in the airframe and in that area they may well be the best in the world.


Brian

Yeah their airframes are very good, especially their Su-37, which makes some crazy tricks and maneuvers. Although how much of a real benefit that is, especially with the rise of BVR combat, is open to debate more or less.

From what I understand, the Russian industry was never able to produce good computer hardware at all, so that means they were setback in everything from aircraft to satellites. Also while the Russians won the space race proper, America always far outworked them in producing and using satellites.

 

[Blackjack200]

Well they lead the world with their anti-air capability, but I dunno if they are as good or better than US in ground radars, and I know their aircraft avionics can not even touch American aircraft avionics. Americans, Russians, Japanese, Chinese, and Indians all have AESA radars however.

What? No. Russia in no way has world leading anti-air capability. It's a simple result of the U.S. spending an order of magnitude more money developing their radars, fire control systems, missiles, etc. Russia has nothing to match AEGIS or Patriot.

Saying Americans, Russians, Japanese, Chinese, and Indians all have AESA radars is like saying they all have jets. It's not enough information. The American Military and defense contractors have devoted enormous effort to developing systems like the APG-77 and APG-81, it's just not plausible that the Russian military has anything approaching that capability.

Russia has been at the forefront of anti-air since, well, Francis Gary Powers and have needed to in order to have any chance against superior western AC. Russia has also been among the worlds leading supplier of anti-air for 5 decades. They have also had a few extremely gifted electrical engineers and scientists like Lev Sergeyevich Termen -- creator of the Theremin and developer of some pretty incredible spy gadgets.

But, the shear scope and volume of western tech has greatly surpassed the work done by the east and there avionics have always been a step or three behind us. There efforts have mostly been in the airframe and in that area they may well be the best in the world.

Brian

I'd take an F-22 or F-35 airframe over any Russian airframe. Who invented supercritical wing foils and lifting bodies? Who has the best machining techniques for titanium? I'd also take a Typhoon or Rafale airframe over an old Sukhoi.

Yeah their airframes are very good, especially their Su-37, which makes some crazy tricks and maneuvers. Although how much of a real benefit that is, especially with the rise of BVR combat, is open to debate more or less.

Su-37 is a Su-27 derivative, and the Su-27 was designed more than 40 years ago. I'd bet money that the F-35 out performs the Su-27 & all derivatives given equal weapons and fuel loads. It seems like a safe bet given its power plant and the fact that it's had the opportunity to incorporate aerodynamic advances between the mid 70s and mid 90s.

 

[Brian Stirling]

I'd take an F-22 or F-35 airframe over any Russian airframe. Who invented supercritical wing foils and lifting bodies? Who has the best machining techniques for titanium? I'd also take a Typhoon or Rafale airframe over an old Sukhoi.

Su-37 is a Su-27 derivative, and the Su-27 was designed more than 40 years ago. I'd bet money that the F-35 out performs the Su-27 & all derivatives given equal weapons and fuel loads. It seems like a safe bet given its power plant and the fact that it's had the opportunity to incorporate aerodynamic advances between the mid 70s and mid 90s.

Russian AC are not nearly as nicely made as western AC, particularly towards the back where it matters less as it's in dirtier air anyway. Russia was (WAS) way ahead of us with Titanium but there advantage there is long gone.

I doubt very much that the F-35 could hang with a modern Sukhoi when it get to a merge. In fact, I don't think the designers would argue that the F-35 is well suited to that task. If it isn't over after the first weapons release I'd say the advantage we have evens out and if it becomes a gun fight the F-35 is in trouble.

And saying the modern Sukhoi AC like the Su-35/37 are derivative of the Su-27, which started life nearly 40 years ago is, well, pretty unfair. In addition to there improvements in manufacturing and materials as well as advances they've made in design, they have dramatically improved there avionics though clearly well behind our newer efforts. They have also been doing thrust vectoring for a long time. Lastly, Russian AC have generally lost speed more slowly in turns giving them an energy advantage.

The fact that the SU-35 etc share lines and resemble the Su-27, a 40 year old AC, does not make the Su-35/37 40 year old AC.


Brian

 

[Blackjack200]

Russian AC are not nearly as nicely made as western AC, particularly towards the back where it matters less as it's in dirtier air anyway. Russia was (WAS) way ahead of us with Titanium but there advantage there is long gone.

I doubt very much that the F-35 could hang with a modern Sukhoi when it get to a merge. In fact, I don't think the designers would argue that the F-35 is well suited to that task. If it isn't over after the first weapons release I'd say the advantage we have evens out and if it becomes a gun fight the F-35 is in trouble.

And saying the modern Sukhoi AC like the Su-35/37 are derivative of the Su-27, which started life nearly 40 years ago is, well, pretty unfair. In addition to there improvements in manufacturing and materials as well as advances they've made in design, they have dramatically improved there avionics though clearly well behind our newer efforts. They have also been doing thrust vectoring for a long time. Lastly, Russian AC have generally lost speed more slowly in turns giving them an energy advantage.

The fact that the SU-35 etc share lines and resemble the Su-27, a 40 year old AC, does not make the Su-35/37 40 year old AC.


Brian

Well, let's be careful here, I was only talking about F-35 airframe vs. Su-35. (Really, I guess, airframe + engine because it's very hard to consider the airframe apart from the engine). Essentially, which fighter would be able to get on the other's tail given a neutral starting position, and no weapons actually being fired. While I think that the F-35 could be equal or superior, I respect that the Su-35 could be better.

If you change that to an actual WVR engagement, I think the F-35 is the prohibitive favorite. It's 360 degree IR sensors, HOBS/LOAL missiles and helmet mounted sight give it a huge advantage. And yes, I know Russia has helmet sights too, but as far as I'm aware, nothing that compares to the AIM-9x. All that doesn't even take into account that with its low observables and superior sensors, the F-35 will likely enter the merge with a tactical advantage.

The Su-35, just like the F/A-18 E&F, the F-15K, and the later F-16 blocks, is a derivative of a '70s design. I'm not sure how that's unfair.

 

[norseamd]

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-f-35-radar-bug-isnt-news-and-its-the-least-of-the-p-1763569371

 

[pauldun170]

Russian AC are not nearly as nicely made as western AC, particularly towards the back where it matters less as it's in dirtier air anyway. Russia was (WAS) way ahead of us with Titanium but there advantage there is long gone.

I doubt very much that the F-35 could hang with a modern Sukhoi when it get to a merge. In fact, I don't think the designers would argue that the F-35 is well suited to that task. If it isn't over after the first weapons release I'd say the advantage we have evens out and if it becomes a gun fight the F-35 is in trouble.

And saying the modern Sukhoi AC like the Su-35/37 are derivative of the Su-27, which started life nearly 40 years ago is, well, pretty unfair. In addition to there improvements in manufacturing and materials as well as advances they've made in design, they have dramatically improved there avionics though clearly well behind our newer efforts. They have also been doing thrust vectoring for a long time. Lastly, Russian AC have generally lost speed more slowly in turns giving them an energy advantage.

The fact that the SU-35 etc share lines and resemble the Su-27, a 40 year old AC, does not make the Su-35/37 40 year old AC.


Brian

We have the advantage of being able to train against the Malaysians and Indians, both of which field the advance version of the Flanker family. The books have already been written on how to fight the Flanker family.

F-35 pilots will be able to take them on.

 

[norseamd]

We have the advantage of being able to train against the Malaysians and Indians, both of which field the advance version of the Flanker family. The books have already been written on how to fight the Flanker family. F-35 pilots will be able to take them on.

Well I doubt that is the problem, although I would not excessively underestimate the newer Russian aircraft, and I certainly would not dismiss Russian anti-air defenses as not worth anything.

 

[pauldun170]

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-f-35-radar-bug-isnt-news-and-its-the-least-of-the-p-1763569371

Tyler is well suited as a Gawker arena blogger.
That's not a compliment.

Too often he reminds me that his actual background is running a hot dog place in Portland.

 

[pauldun170]

Saying Americans, Russians, Japanese, Chinese, and Indians all have AESA radars is like saying they all have jets.

lol

 

[Blackjack200]

Well I doubt that is the problem, although I would not excessively underestimate the newer Russian aircraft, and I certainly would not dismiss Russian anti-air defenses as not worth anything.

No-one is dismissing them. In fact, they're the reason we shape and coat our airplanes to deflect x-band radio waves.

 

[norseamd]

No-one is dismissing them. In fact, they're the reason we shape and coat our airplanes to deflect x-band radio waves.

And the Chinese are getting the S-400, and they are certainly going to reverse-engineer them, and then start producing their own Chinese forks of the S-400, which will eventually have their own Chinese upgrades.

 

[pauldun170]

And the Chinese are getting the S-400, and they are certainly going to reverse-engineer them, and then start producing their own Chinese forks of the S-400, which will eventually have their own Chinese upgrades.

The S-400 is pretty scary, but not as scary as you think. Its not a wonder weapon. Its a hodgepodge of old and new stuff.
Fortunately, with Russia trying to sell it to everyone and their mother it is now just a series of test points for the next generation jammer program, the F-35 and the B-21. When you offer your bad ass air defense system to our Allies....we tend to get all sorts of useful info on it.

SEAD boys look at something like a layered S-400 network and think "OK, we'll use the F-22 for ID\location\ and then feed that data to Prowlers and F-16 boys"

AGM-154 and AGM-88 then go about their business of poking very big holes in air defenses.
The S-400 is still (potentially) dangerous. There is still risk. However we have lot of folks who train for this stuff using systems specifically designed to counter that sort of threat.

 

[norseamd]

The S-400 is pretty scary, but not as scary as you think. Its not a wonder weapon. Its a hodgepodge of old and new stuff.
Fortunately, with Russia trying to sell it to everyone and their mother it is now just a series of test points for the next generation jammer program, the F-35 and the B-21. When you offer your bad ass air defense system to our Allies....we tend to get all sorts of useful info on it.

SEAD boys look at something like a layered S-400 network and think "OK, we'll use the F-22 for ID\location\ and then feed that data to Prowlers and F-16 boys"

AGM-154 and AGM-88 then go about their business of poking very big holes in air defenses.
The S-400 is still (potentially) dangerous. There is still risk. However we have lot of folks who train for this stuff using systems specifically designed to counter that sort of threat.

Are the Russians selling their domestic version or a watered down export version?

 

[pauldun170]

Are the Russians selling their domestic version or a watered down export version?

The soviets used to dump gimped versions on all their client states.
Russia has been spending quiet some time just trying to find any buyer it can.
Buyers who were not so keen on buying gimped systems.
The best flankers in the world are flown by Malaysians and Indians.

The Russians tried to sell it to Turkey several years back until the US blocked the deal.

Let that sink in for a second.

Turkey was on track to buy the S-400 from Russia.

 

[Brian Stirling]

One can only hope the west never gets into a shooting war with the Russians or the Chinese for no matter how much of an advantage we have in weapons quality and now weapons quantity they both have formidable nuclear arsenals. Assuming the fight starts conventional and we start kicking there ass and depleting them of there high value assets how long would it be before they feel a need to kick things up a few notches and start popping mushroom clouds over our forces. If that happens the world comes to an end!

Not mentioned in this discussion is the advantage the west has with AWACs and satellite and aerial recon. In the engagements we had with Iraqis forces, when they dared try, was that we knew they were coming the moment the left the ground and often before that. The poor fucks that tried ... died! Some of that is down to superior AC, some to superior training, and the rest to better intel and coordination via AWACs etc.

Against the Russians vaunted S400 and similar systems the US would kill them before they fired a shot and before US forces were in harms way. It doesn't matter how good there system are if they're a pile of smoldering slag!

But, to be fair, there's every reason to bet they'd be able to drop some nasties on us to.


Brian

 

[MongGrel]

Kind of get a kick out of this one a bit, and in many situations viable.

Dug those little Broncos out.

Vietnam-era planes used against ISIS

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/11/p...iid=ob_lockedrail_topeditorial&iref=obnetwork

 

[Brian Stirling]

Kind of get a kick out of this one a bit, and in many situations viable.

Dug those little Broncos out.

Vietnam-era planes used against ISIS

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/11/p...iid=ob_lockedrail_topeditorial&iref=obnetwork

My older brother worked on an flew in them during Viet Nam and is a huge fan.

I discovered later that some of the special forces units would jump out of them for insertion. The Bronco would perform a climbing maneuver and upwards of 6 guys would jump -- I would not have thought it possible to put 6 guys in there let alone jump from it.


Brian

 

[MongGrel]

My older brother worked on an flew in them during Viet Nam and is a huge fan.

I discovered later that some of the special forces units would jump out of them for insertion. The Bronco would perform a climbing maneuver and upwards of 6 guys would jump -- I would not have thought it possible to put 6 guys in there let alone jump from it.


Brian

Pretty cool planes.

Nam was a couple years before my time and I joined up for awhile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j88gapwmpoU

 

[Blackjack200]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odhIhAiSfic#t=362

Wow, look at that Lockheed Martin shill...

...with that USMC uniform...

...and all those stars on his shoulder.

 

[PricklyPete]

Pretty cool planes.

Nam was a couple years before my time and I joined up for awhile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j88gapwmpoU

That thing is awesome. Like the SUV of planes.

 

[pauldun170]

That thing is awesome. Like the SUV of planes.

When I was a kid, OV-10's were up there with A-4's, F-111's and Tomcats on my fav list.

I'm a little conflicted seeing these used for COIN ops.
COIN is a really a shitty business to be in.