The explanation for those weird Siberian craters isn't comforting

[theeedude]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

That is the rightwinger argument. That the government should not support investment in alternative energy to avoid the risk another Solyndra. If it's absurdity, it's because it started that way, not because it was reduced to it.

 

[Moonbeam]

Unfair comparisons, as each provides a benefit to the person doing so. Spending billions of dollars to reduce carbon emissions that will be offset by the increases in output by India and China in a month provides what benefit exactly?

First off you assume amounts of money, periods of time and a knowledge of motivation without any real knowledge of any. Secondly, the answer is obvious. You are asking what purpose is there is to using your own brake linings trying to stop a head on collision when the other person appears not to have any intention to brake.

 

[Moonbeam]

But just think of the collective moral superiority that the supporters will gain by all the new pics of smog ridden shanghai or suicides by workers in factories making the latest widget they must have?

Can't put a price on the value of a smug armchair environmentalist getting their daily cup of fake moral superiority.

Your CBD can't help but turn it into am moral competition. I believe that conservatives are moral in 4 or 5 ways that conservatives aren't making conservatives more moral than liberals. I also believe those 4 or 5 additional moral instincts are a joke. The moralities that matter to me are justice and equality and liberals are more moral in those areas so there's nothing fake about our superiority. Sorry to have to compete where the facts are obvious, but if I didn't you would see any humility I could show as weakness.

 

[MongGrel]

...

 

[shira]

Unfair comparisons, as each provides a benefit to the person doing so. Spending billions of dollars to reduce carbon emissions that will be offset by the increases in output by India and China in a month provides what benefit exactly?

Even if the situation were as unfair as you indicate, then the benefit would be that we don't INCREASE the rate of warming beyond what it already is. Your argument seems to be that halting the progression of a "disease" is of no value or, alternatively, that unless we can force everyone to be responsible there's no value in being responsible ourselves. You're wrong; every CO2 molecule NOT released counts.

But I disagree with your premise. China is suffering horribly from its internal pollution, and is highly motivated to clean up its industries. I haven't looked into what's happening in India, but I'll bet they are in a similar situation.

 

[Jaskalas]

John Kerry lectures African leaders not to create more farmland for starving children because it could emit CO2

Mr. Somali, tear down that farm!

 

[Victorian Gray]

The entire transcript of Kerry's speech in case anyone wants to see the context

http://allafrica.com/stories/201408051532.html

 

[CZroe]

I'm not surprised our resident denialists are ignoring this post.

I hate to say it, but it would probably be better to cap and flare the methane then let it escape into the atmosphere.

Although judging from the size of the Arctic and the potential amount of methane, there's probably too much to do anything directly about it.

Even deniers know that warming is real. Just because some believe it is caused by natural warming from non-anthropogenic sources (the Sun) doesn't mean they aren't concerned about the specific impacts.

 

[Zorba]

in your backyard of course? you would support that I have to assume.

I don't know what you rambling about, full scale power plants are built all the time.

Here is a list of new power plants just in California: http://www.energy.ca.gov/sitingcases/all_projects.html

Just last year I was involved in a project to setup a micro power plant in the middle of Compton.

I know the official line is the EPA/NIMBY won't let any one build any power plant, but that is just false.

If I owned enough land for it, I would be begging power companies to put wind farms in my backyard. I wish my neighborhood would allow PV and small wind generators.

 

[Exterous]

Do I think the Chinese government can get a country of 1B+ people to immediately stop polluting? No, but I bet they can get themselves in shape faster than we can.

But at what point will they start making actual progress? Certain areas areas are already experiencing conditions much worse than you would find in the US (Beijing, Shanghai) and are still getting worse. I don't see much slowing of their ghost city production. Guiyu still seems to be accepting all the e-waste it can for 'disposal'

Their government has made some small concessions but nothing close to actual progress. I highly doubt China will do much to limit their pollution if it comes at the expense of their growth particularly given their proximity to India. India seems to care even less than China given that New Dehli's air is the most polluted in the world and they also hold the #2-4 most polluted city rankings. Yet no one ever seems to mention them and no one in New Dehli seems to care. You get mask wearing locals and news coverage for Beijing but minimal for New Dehli despite an average pollution 3x as bad.

IMO our only real hope is to get renewable energy cheap enough that wide scale adoption comes to India and China because I don't expect those two countries (particularly India) will choose to sacrifice growth for more expensive cleaner industry\cars\etc

 

[Pr0d1gy]

I'm just waiting for them to link Ebola to "man-made" climate change....lol

 

[dank69]

But at what point will they start making actual progress? Certain areas areas are already experiencing conditions much worse than you would find in the US (Beijing, Shanghai) and are still getting worse. I don't see much slowing of their ghost city production. Guiyu still seems to be accepting all the e-waste it can for 'disposal'

Their government has made some small concessions but nothing close to actual progress. I highly doubt China will do much to limit their pollution if it comes at the expense of their growth particularly given their proximity to India. India seems to care even less than China given that New Dehli's air is the most polluted in the world and they also hold the #2-4 most polluted city rankings. Yet no one ever seems to mention them and no one in New Dehli seems to care. You get mask wearing locals and news coverage for Beijing but minimal for New Dehli despite an average pollution 3x as bad.

IMO our only real hope is to get renewable energy cheap enough that wide scale adoption comes to India and China because I don't expect those two countries (particularly India) will choose to sacrifice growth for more expensive cleaner industry\cars\etc

I don't know how long it will take. I believe it was just this year that they volunteered that they need to do something.

 

[spacejamz]

I don't know how long it will take. I believe it was just this year that they volunteered that they need to do something.

What about India and Russia???

And if you really think anything 'real' or 'meaningful' will happen regarding the pollution in China in our lifetime or our kid's or grandkid's (I sure hope I am wrong on that but I doubt it), I have bridge to sell you. But I applaud your ability to accept their statement without any doubts or reservations....

 

[ch33zw1z]

meh, we all gotta go sometime

/life

 

[dank69]

What about India and Russia???

And if you really think anything 'real' or 'meaningful' will happen regarding the pollution in China in our lifetime or our kid's or grandkid's (I sure hope I am wrong on that but I doubt it), I have bridge to sell you. But I applaud your ability to accept their statement without any doubts or reservations....

We didn't prod China into doing anything or even saying anything. They volunteered on their own. If they aren't planning on doing something, why say they are going to do something?

 

[Jeff7]

One Word: Nuclear

Yes, this.
Until next-gen fission reactors are online, get the breeders going. France hasn't blown us into nuclear winter yet, and they get a lot of power from nuclear and they run breeders. That'll at least let us extract more energy from a given quantity of uranium.
And start something to put our stockpiles of thorium to good use.

 

[spacejamz]

We didn't prod China into doing anything or even saying anything. They volunteered on their own. If they aren't planning on doing something, why say they are going to do something?

PR

 

[K1052]

Yes, this.
Until next-gen fission reactors are online, get the breeders going. France hasn't blown us into nuclear winter yet, and they get a lot of power from nuclear and they run breeders. That'll at least let us extract more energy from a given quantity of uranium.
And start something to put our stockpiles of thorium to good use.

We could simply reprocess our enormous existing spent fuel stockpile...which would provide decades worth of fuel. Need to get moving on replacing the legacy reactor fleet with new Gen III+ designs soon though.

 

[glenn1]

We could simply reprocess our enormous existing spent fuel stockpile...which would provide decades worth of fuel. Need to get moving on replacing the legacy reactor fleet with new Gen III+ designs soon though.

One of the major problems with that is "environmentalists" will delay and NIMBY nuclear plants for generations. They think if they can somehow stop us from burning fossils fuels and shut down nuclear power, that spending trillions on a "Manhattan Project" for energy will yield some magical source. All while maintaining our current lifestyle and not plunging us back into a Napoleonic era economy if not Elizabethan.

 

[K1052]

One of the major problems with that is "environmentalists" will delay and NIMBY nuclear plants for generations. They think if they can somehow stop us from burning fossils fuels and shut down nuclear power, that spending trillions on a "Manhattan Project" for energy will yield some magical source. All while maintaining our current lifestyle and not plunging us back into a Napoleonic era economy if not Elizabethan.

There are several new nuclear reactors under construction right now and more looking possible as coal generation is steadily retired. You can't always claim that NIMBY's wont allow it when things are already happening.

 

[glenn1]

There are several new nuclear reactors under construction right now and more looking possible as coal generation is steadily retired. You can't always claim that NIMBY's wont allow it when things are already happening.

Of course not every single one will be stopped, but the opposition is still there and environmentalists are still vastly anti-nuclear with a minority (albeit growing) pro-nuclear. And nuclear plants are still getting decommissioned faster than new ones are coming online.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/1/5958943/nuclear-power-rise-fall-six-charts

 

[werepossum]

Well, this thread certainly went to Hell.

Except for this post. This one is approved as providing your daily dose of levity.

John Kerry lectures African leaders not to create more farmland for starving children because it could emit CO2

Mr. Somali, tear down that farm!

 

[nehalem256]

One of the major problems with that is "environmentalists" will delay and NIMBY nuclear plants for generations. They think if they can somehow stop us from burning fossils fuels and shut down nuclear power, that spending trillions on a "Manhattan Project" for energy will yield some magical source. All while maintaining our current lifestyle and not plunging us back into a Napoleonic era economy if not Elizabethan.

Which they will then oppose. There is not a single source of energy ever invented that environmentalists are not opposed to.

 

[K1052]

Of course not every single one will be stopped, but the opposition is still there and environmentalists are still vastly anti-nuclear with a minority (albeit growing) pro-nuclear. And nuclear plants are still getting decommissioned faster than new ones are coming online.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/1/5958943/nuclear-power-rise-fall-six-charts

The relative lack of new reactors coming online was caused buy a flattening of US electrical demand, the abundance (though probably short term) of cheap NG , and very high capital cost. Environmental issues play a largely secondary role especially since the general plan is to add reactors to existing plant sites.

With coal plants increasingly being phased out and LNG exports on the horizon (rising NG prices) nuclear will likely see another resurgence in the coming years to make up more of the base load generation mix.

 

[Moonbeam]

Don't you think that alternative energy sources other than nuclear and coal could be brought online rapidly if there weren't special fossil and nuclear interests trying to sabotage any move in that direct?

Dr. Nocera, at MIT, has an answer that would solve our energy problems if the funding and a war of oil imports could be implemented.

The hydrogen fuel cell supplied by solar produced hydrogen and oxygen can be used to power anything. It can be used as a tiny power source or a massive one to power any energy need and the only resource that's required is water and sun.