The existence of Christ? -ref to Josephus' works

[Greyd]

This thread was an off shoot of this thread. I didn't want to interrupt the thread. So this thread is more of a reply to the original post by Melchoir stated seperately so as not to interrupt reitz's thread.

But Melchoir stated the following info from another thread:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Few people would doubt that Christ ever existed. After all, the life of Jesus Christ is mentioned by Josephus

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christians claim that the Jewish historian
Josephus recorded information about Jesus in his book _Jewish
Antiquities _ (published c. 93 - 94 C.E.) It is true that this
book contains information about the three false Messiahs, Yehuda
of Galilee, Theudas and Benjamin the Egyptian, and it is true
that the character of Jesus appears to be based on all of them
in part, but none of them can be regarded as the historical
Jesus. Moreover, in the book of _Acts_, these people are
mentioned as being different people to Jesus and so modern
Christianity actually rejects any connection between them and
Jesus. In the Christian edited versions of the _Jewish
Antiquities_ there are two passages dealing with Jesus as
portrayed in Christian religious works. Neither of these
passages are found in the original version of the _Jewish
Antiquities_ which was preserved by the Jews. The first passage
(XVII,3,3) was quoted by Eusebius writing in c. 320 C.E. and so
we can conclude that it was added in some time between the time
Christians got hold of the _Jewish Antiquities_ and c. 320 C.E.
It is not known when the other passage (XX,9,1) was added in.
Neither passage is based on any reliable sources. It is
fraudulent to claim that these passages were written by Josephus
and that they provide evidence for Jesus. They were written by
Christian redactors and were based purely on Christian belief.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not quite sure where this info was copied from - since I did not see a source from the thread it was derived from. (I didn't check all the pages.) But historians would have to strongly disagree. Passages in the Antiquities VERY EXPLICITLY detail the life of Christ. Again I would have to state that the majority of historians (secular and Christian) both believe in the existence of Christ. Its not something that is really questioned. What is questioned, of course, is who Jesus actually was.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

I'd like to see the source of that information quoted as well.

 

[melchoir]

Since the existance of christ has already been put in question in a prior thread Text
feel free to add your argument FOR christ there, but be sure to read through the thread as to not bring up points thave have been dismissed already. This thread was unnecessary.

 

[Greyd]

IIRC, the whole Testimonium Flavianum debate was laid to rest in 1995 with the discovery of the correspondences between the Testimonium and the Emmaus narrative of Luke.

 

[Greyd]

Originally posted by: melchoir
Since the existance of christ has already been put in question in a prior thread Text
feel free to add your argument FOR christ there, but be sure to read through the thread as to not bring up points thave have been dismissed already. This thread was unnecessary.

I'm simply asking what your soure was. Why won't you mention your source?

 

[Greyd]

The existence of Christ is mentioned in another thread. This thread is more focused on the "doubts" your quoted passage mentions of Josephus' Testimonium Flavianum

 

[melchoir]

I'm simply asking what your soure was. Why won't you mention your source?

I have no reason.

The existence of Christ is mentioned in another thread. This thread is more focused on the "doubts" your quoted passage mentions of Josephus' Testimonium Flavianum.

A thread filled with debate. Christ's existance is questioned there, my quote was posted there as well (and before being reposted) If you wish to debate it further, read the entire thread, then counter.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: melchoir

I'm simply asking what your soure was. Why won't you mention your source?

I have no reason.

Then please tell us the source of the information, if you have no reason not to.

 

[Greyd]

Originally posted by: melchoir

I'm simply asking what your soure was. Why won't you mention your source?

I have no reason.

The existence of Christ is mentioned in another thread. This thread is more focused on the "doubts" your quoted passage mentions of Josephus' Testimonium Flavianum.

A thread filled with debate. Christ's existance is questioned there, my quote was posted there as well (and before being reposted) If you wish to debate it further, read the entire thread, then counter.

Then to lend reliability to your quotes please submit the source of tyour quote. This thread was created so as to not interfere with reitz's post. Additionally, the original post which you posted the original quote has the title of "Agnostic accountability groups" one that has been hijacked from its original purpose and is extremely long. Therefore a new post (this one) would seem most appropriate.

 

[Greyd]

Originally posted by: melchoir

I'm simply asking what your soure was. Why won't you mention your source?

I have no reason.

The existence of Christ is mentioned in another thread. This thread is more focused on the "doubts" your quoted passage mentions of Josephus' Testimonium Flavianum.

A thread filled with debate. Christ's existance is questioned there, my quote was posted there as well (and before being reposted) If you wish to debate it further, read the entire thread, then counter.

I read the thread and the parts that I am focused on. It seems that petrek is also asking for your source - yet you have failed to respond. So I don't know how much success I will gain by following your request.

 

[Passions]

Read "The Case for Christ" which is written by a skeptical journalist, Lee Strobel. In the end, through his research, he found overwhelming evidence that not only did Jesus exist, but he is the Christ.

 

[imported_Papi]

So we are talking about doubts.... I supposed the Loch ness Monster is real to... it's been documented for more than 100 years to exist.

 

[Greyd]

Originally posted by: yayo
So we are talking about doubts.... I supposed the Loch ness Monster is real to... it's been documented for more than 100 years to exist.

Heh? Ya lost me there.

 

[imported_Papi]

Well, maybe I'm on the wrong track. It is still early..

There have been groups of people over the years trying to prove that Christ was a real person, that he existed, that somewhere on this planet is the truth and that they will find it.

They have been just as successful as those who have tried to prove the loch ness monster exists.

Perhaps thats a bit off of the topic. I was just relating one thing to another as far as beliefs went. I've come to realize that, basically, people will believe what they want to.

I don't believe Christ exists, however I'd like to think Nessy does.

EDIT - still waking up..here..

 

[Greyd]

Originally posted by: yayo
Well, maybe I'm on the wrong track. It is still early..

There have been group of people over the years trying to prove that Christ was a real person, that he existed, that somewhere on this planet is the truth and that they will find it.

They have been just as successful as those who have tried to prove the loch ness monster exists.

Perhaps that a big off of the topic. I was just relating one thing to another as far as beliefs went. I've come to realize that, basically, people will believe what they want to.

I don't believe Christ exists, however I'd like to think Nessy does.

Ahhh...I see what you are trying to say. Actually its kinda the other way around. The majority of secular, Jewish and Christian (obviously) historians have proved (or believe) his existence. There is a small minority that doesn't not believe in his existence. There's a bigger group that discounts who exactly he was - but very few recognized scholars debate his existence.

EDIT: corrected spelling error and added a word

 

[Greyd]

However, there IS debate over who Jesus actually was. (As you can see from all the debates here on ATOT)

 

[melchoir]

Read "The Case for Christ" which is written by a skeptical journalist, Lee Strobel. In the end, through his research, he found overwhelming evidence that not only did Jesus exist, but he is the Christ.

Also Read: The Rest of the Story: Review of Lee Strobel The Case for Christ, Jeffery J. Lowder
This too: CHALLENGING THE VERDICT A Cross-Examination of Lee Strobel?s The Case For Christ, Earl Doherty

 

[Greyd]

Originally posted by: melchoir

Read "The Case for Christ" which is written by a skeptical journalist, Lee Strobel. In the end, through his research, he found overwhelming evidence that not only did Jesus exist, but he is the Christ.

Also Read: The Rest of the Story: Review of Lee Strobel The Case for Christ, Jeffery J. Lowder
This too: CHALLENGING THE VERDICT A Cross-Examination of Lee Strobel?s The Case For Christ, Earl Doherty

Come now Melchoir...I thought you said you were done debating this topic. Were you really done? or was it because you offered a quote from a bad source and couldn't really refute it after "refusing" to cite a source. Cmon now...make up your mind.

 

[melchoir]

Come now Melchoir...I thought you said you were done debating this topic. Were you really done? or was it because you offered a quote from a bad source and couldn't really refute it after "refusing" to cite a source. Cmon now...make up your mind.

I couldn't help myself. But I'm off to bed now so no more temptation.

 

[imported_Papi]

Originally posted by: Greyd
However, there IS debate over who Jesus actually was. (As you can see from all the debates here on ATOT)

I don't think he ever existed, so I can't even begin to think who he "might" have been.

 

[Greyd]

Originally posted by: yayo

Originally posted by: Greyd
However, there IS debate over who Jesus actually was. (As you can see from all the debates here on ATOT)

I don't think he ever existed, so I can't even begin to think who he "might" have been.

Totally your prerogative.

 

[Stark]

some people still think that:

man never went to the moon
the earth is the center of the solar system
and the planet is flat

everyone saying different is part of a big conspiracy

 

[melchoir]

some people still think that:

man never went to the moon
the earth is the center of the solar system
and the planet is flat

everyone saying different is part of a big conspiracy

While getting involved in debate on this topic is not my intent, I would like to point out the difference's in your analogy. In all of your examples, there is historical or observable proof from countless unbiased sources disproving those claims. The existance of Jesus Christ does not share the abundance of evidence for it that your other examples have agianst them.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: yayo
Well, maybe I'm on the wrong track. It is still early..

There have been groups of people over the years trying to prove that Christ was a real person, that he existed, that somewhere on this planet is the truth and that they will find it.

They have been just as successful as those who have tried to prove the loch ness monster exists.

Perhaps thats a bit off of the topic. I was just relating one thing to another as far as beliefs went. I've come to realize that, basically, people will believe what they want to.

I don't believe Christ exists, however I'd like to think Nessy does.

EDIT - still waking up..here..

You're comparing apples to oranges... and badly. The archeological accurracy of the Bible, and the proof that a man named Jesus of Nazareth actually lived, has been firmly established by secular science. Not religious science, but secular science. Very, very few doubt it anymore. Whether he was God and/or the Christ is the question, not whether or not he lived -- that is fact.
Your analogy to the Loch Ness monster only makes you appear young and uneducated.

 

[Troll]

While there is evedince Christ lived but that he was not devine which undercuts ALL arguments here ........... let the flames start

as a side not nothing against the christians just the truth since they are more than will to show "evidence" christ was a living person nothing of a devine life


Troy