The existence of Christ? -ref to Josephus' works

[Netopia]

You guys need to get your names and titles straight!

Jesus of Nazareth = a person, and that is His name.

Christ = Greek for "choosen one" or "annointed one". It is a title that someone holds and is NOT a name.

Messiah = Hebrew for "choosen one" or "annointed one". It is a title that someone holds and is NOT a name.


Even the title of the thread is ambiguous... it's sort of like saying "The Existence of President?" WHICH President? Many in the Bible were "Christ" (as in annointed of God), but when we refer to Jesus and His title, we usually would use a definite article (THE Christ) rather than indefinite (A Christ).

So.... is the thread supposed to be whether :

• Jesus of Nazareth Existed?
• Any Christ Existed?
• THE Christ Has Already Existed?
• Jesus of Nazareth IS The Christ AND Has Already Existed

Which is the debate about?

Joe

 

[imported_Papi]

Originally posted by: Netopia
You guys need to get your names and titles straight!

Jesus of Nazareth = a person, and that is His name.

Christ = Greek for "choosen one" or "annointed one". It is a title that someone holds and is NOT a name.

Messiah = Hebrew for "choosen one" or "annointed one". It is a title that someone holds and is NOT a name.


Even the title of the thread is ambiguous... it's sort of like saying "The Existence of President?" WHICH President? Many in the Bible were "Christ" (as in annointed of God), but when we refer to Jesus and His title, we usually would use a definite article (THE Christ) rather than indefinite (A Christ).

So.... is the thread supposed to be whether :

• Jesus of Nazareth Existed?
• Any Christ Existed?
• THE Christ Has Already Existed?
• Jesus of Nazareth IS The Christ AND Has Already Existed

Which is the debate about?

Joe

I think you own them now....

 

[melchoir]

*waves* to Netopia

I find it extremely hard to not comment on these threads but I'm trying.. =)

 

[Karsten]

It's one of the faith and believe discussions. You don't know about my history and my expiriances... I believe he did exist and I have a personal relationship with him. You can refute that all you want, for me it is true. Feel free to disagree but know:
a, I feel like I am a better person because I believe what I believe.
b, He loves you regardless of what you think
c, You are always welcome to test and try my faith and find out more about it.

To criticize is easy! It is always the easiest position to take!

 

[Greyd]

Originally posted by: Netopia
You guys need to get your names and titles straight!

Jesus of Nazareth = a person, and that is His name.

Christ = Greek for "choosen one" or "annointed one". It is a title that someone holds and is NOT a name.

Messiah = Hebrew for "choosen one" or "annointed one". It is a title that someone holds and is NOT a name.


Even the title of the thread is ambiguous... it's sort of like saying "The Existence of President?" WHICH President? Many in the Bible were "Christ" (as in annointed of God), but when we refer to Jesus and His title, we usually would use a definite article (THE Christ) rather than indefinite (A Christ).

So.... is the thread supposed to be whether :

• Jesus of Nazareth Existed?
• Any Christ Existed?
• THE Christ Has Already Existed?
• Jesus of Nazareth IS The Christ AND Has Already Existed

Which is the debate about?

Joe

Well..we could play semantics games all day long. If you read the posts above carefully - you would probably get a good idea of what we were debating. But if its STILL not clear - we were debating over the historical existence of Jesus Christ specifically in debate over Melchoir's "source" and Josephus' works - hence the title. But since you want to get really nitpicky - lets say Jesus of Nazareth. However, since the debate was not over semantics - lets stay true to the focus on Jospehus and his works.

 

[Netopia]

But since you want to get really nitpicky - lets say Jesus of Nazareth.

I don't think you understand, yet. There is a BIG difference between debating the existance of Jesus -vs- the existance of Jesus Christ. One is merely historical while the other is historical and theological.

Thank you for pointing out exactly what it is centered on - Jesus as spoken of by Josephus. Unfortunately, that isn't reality even before your last post since you've got people on the thread who are citing Strobel, Lowder and Doherty. I'm going to have to humbly bow out of this one, having not read the works of Josephus, I wouldn't be qualified to comment. Perhaps I'll just read and learn.

Joe

 

[HokieESM]

Originally posted by: Netopia

But since you want to get really nitpicky - lets say Jesus of Nazareth.

I don't think you understand, yet. There is a BIG difference between debating the existance of Jesus -vs- the existance of Jesus Christ. One is merely historical while the other is historical and theological.

Thank you for pointing out exactly what it is centered on - Jesus as spoken of by Josephus. Unfortunately, that isn't reality even before your last post since you've got people on the thread who are citing Strobel, Lowder and Doherty. I'm going to have to humbly bow out of this one, having not read the works of Josephus, I wouldn't be qualified to comment. Perhaps I'll just read and learn.

Joe

Netopia... like you, I haven't read Josephus's work... so I'm probably not qualified to comment. BUT, from what I have read, I'm relatively sure Jesus of Nazareth was an actual person, in that the flesh-and-blood human did walk the face of the earth. He's been mentioned in far too many historical accounts (other than the Bible) for the human not to exist. I think the BIG question is more the "was he the Messiah?"..... don't forget that there are millions of people of the Jewish faith that do not think he was. I think that's going to be very difficult to "prove" or disprove.... unless the Messiah shows up tomorrow and we figure it out by process of elimination. (actually, i suppose when we die, we'll find out--but I don't think we're going to be posting to ATOT what we find)

 

[Netopia]

I think the BIG question is more the "was he the Messiah?"..... don't forget that there are millions of people of the Jewish faith that do not think he was. I think that's going to be very difficult to "prove" or disprove.... unless the Messiah shows up tomorrow and we figure it out by process of elimination.

Actually, if one takes the OT Scripture to be truthful, then the evidense of prophesy overwhelmingly points straight to Jesus... but I think if we want to discuss that, we'll have to start another thread.

Joe