The Economist: The world middle class is largest ever

[blackangst1]

This is an interesting article. Its long, but outlines emerging country's middle classes growing. I have done quite a bit of travel, and I know when I go back to a country I havent been to for a few years the business districts become larger and larger. Current world depression notwithstanding, I think this is a good sign.

Another thing to keep in perspective is how the middle class is defined. There is a link on the main article page that outlines that. From THAT article:

THERE are two main ways to define a middle class: in relative terms, as the middle income range of each country; or in absolute terms, using a fixed band for all countries. An influential exponent of the first approach was Lester Thurow of the MIT?s Sloan School of Management, who took as his reference point the median income in America?where there is an equal number of people above and below the line?and defined the American middle class as the group with incomes lying between 75% and 125% of the median. Nancy Birdsall of the Centre for Global Development applied the same idea to developing countries. Bill Easterly of New York University selected those who were in the three middle quintiles of income (leaving out the poorest 20% and the richest 20%). The problem with this approach is that each country has a different median income, so the definition of what is middle class shifts from place to place.

For the OP that link is here.

 

[BarneyFife]

The only middle classes that are growing are in China/India. Everyone else is in pain right now.

 

[Nemesis 1]

That because there populations are so large that the can print paper for awhile yet befor its true value is relized.

 

[RichardE]

This is why protectionism is bad. Free trade allows all nations to improve there quality of life.

 

[MovingTarget]

Good for them...meanwhile OUR middle class has been shrinking for quite some time.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: RichardE
This is why protectionism is bad. Free trade allows all nations to improve there quality of life.

Protectionism is what made the US a great industrial power, it's only after we surpassed Britain that we became the proponents of free trade, and now we're being overtaken.

Awesome stuff.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Good for them...meanwhile OUR middle class has been shrinking for quite some time.

yup, it's such a horrible thing that the middle class has been getting wealthier and moving into the upper class

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: RichardE
This is why protectionism is bad. Free trade allows all nations to improve there quality of life.

Protectionism is what made the US a great industrial power, it's only after we surpassed Britain that we became the proponents of free trade, and now we're being overtaken.

Awesome stuff.

Well, once you find a powerhouse like Europe was during that time to buy the goods the US makes, we might be able to go back to an industrialized nation.

Tell me though, who would buy American goods now? Especially with cheaper goods being manufactured elsewhere. Will the US buy the goods it makes? We can barely afford the cheap stuff :laugh: That is why this argument never makes sense. Sure if we had another Europe to sell shit too, we could be a great industrialized power, but now we are the Europe.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: RichardE
This is why protectionism is bad. Free trade allows all nations to improve there quality of life.

Protectionism is what made the US a great industrial power, it's only after we surpassed Britain that we became the proponents of free trade, and now we're being overtaken.

Awesome stuff.

Well, once you find a powerhouse like Europe was during that time to buy the goods the US makes, we might be able to go back to an industrialized nation.

Tell me though, who would buy American goods now? Especially with cheaper goods being manufactured elsewhere. Will the US buy the goods it makes? We can barely afford the cheap stuff :laugh: That is why this argument never makes sense. Sure if we had another Europe to sell shit too, we could be a great industrialized power, but now we are the Europe.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you just giving a little context.

The rules have certainly changed, but under the right conditions, tariff's and the like can actually be beneficial.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Good for them...meanwhile OUR middle class has been shrinking for quite some time.

yup, it's such a horrible thing that the middle class has been getting wealthier and moving into the upper class

LOLOLOL

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: RichardE
This is why protectionism is bad. Free trade allows all nations to improve there quality of life.

Protectionism is what made the US a great industrial power, it's only after we surpassed Britain that we became the proponents of free trade, and now we're being overtaken.

Awesome stuff.

Well, once you find a powerhouse like Europe was during that time to buy the goods the US makes, we might be able to go back to an industrialized nation.

Tell me though, who would buy American goods now? Especially with cheaper goods being manufactured elsewhere. Will the US buy the goods it makes? We can barely afford the cheap stuff :laugh: That is why this argument never makes sense. Sure if we had another Europe to sell shit too, we could be a great industrialized power, but now we are the Europe.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you just giving a little context.

The rules have certainly changed, but under the right conditions, tariff's and the like can actually be beneficial.

Until countries return tarrifs on goods your entire population uses and it cascades from there. I mean, sure Tarrifs on some items that might be unfairly being dumped are an option, but should by far be the last due to the potential repercussions.

Also, one thing on your statement, the abandonment of protectionism, when the US started selling arms, ships, ect during WW1, WW2 so the involvement in world trade, as well as the say it had in opening up trade barriers, loaning money ect was what skyrocketed the US to a great power. It took advantage of entering the war late and funding the clean up. Trade always has and always will be the engine of the economy.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Good for them...meanwhile OUR middle class has been shrinking for quite some time.

yup, it's such a horrible thing that the middle class has been getting wealthier and moving into the upper class

LOLOLOL

Before you mock something, maybe you should take a little time to study it.

Since 1970, the middle income tier in America has shrunk by about 5 percentage points.

In 1970, 40% of all adults in this country lived in a middle income household, with "middle" defined as one where the income falls within 75% to 150% of the median. By 2006, just 35% of adults were in the middle income tier. This small but notable hollowing out of the middle has been accompanied by an increase in the share of adults in both the lower income category and the upper income category. The rise in share has been greater over this time period for the upper group (to 32% in 2006 from 28% in 1970) than for the lower income tier (to 33% in 2006 from 31% in 1970). Looking at these changes by age group shows that the trends have been very different for the youngest and oldest adults. The 65 and older group has moved ahead during the past 36 years; the 18-to-29 year old group has fallen behind. Among the older group, just 45% were in the lower income tier in 2006, down from 58% in 1970. Among the younger group, 39% were lower income in 2006, up from 30% in 1970.

 

[imported_K3N]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: RichardE
This is why protectionism is bad. Free trade allows all nations to improve there quality of life.

Protectionism is what made the US a great industrial power, it's only after we surpassed Britain that we became the proponents of free trade, and now we're being overtaken.

Awesome stuff.

Well, once you find a powerhouse like Europe was during that time to buy the goods the US makes, we might be able to go back to an industrialized nation.

Tell me though, who would buy American goods now? Especially with cheaper goods being manufactured elsewhere. Will the US buy the goods it makes? We can barely afford the cheap stuff :laugh: That is why this argument never makes sense. Sure if we had another Europe to sell shit too, we could be a great industrialized power, but now we are the Europe.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you just giving a little context.

The rules have certainly changed, but under the right conditions, tariff's and the like can actually be beneficial.

Until countries return tarrifs on goods your entire population uses and it cascades from there. I mean, sure Tarrifs on some items that might be unfairly being dumped are an option, but should by far be the last due to the potential repercussions.

Also, one thing on your statement, the abandonment of protectionism, when the US started selling arms, ships, ect during WW1, WW2 so the involvement in world trade, as well as the say it had in opening up trade barriers, loaning money ect was what skyrocketed the US to a great power. It took advantage of entering the war late and funding the clean up. Trade always has and always will be the engine of the economy.

Man, you libertarian hacks never cease to amaze me. Making more than 2$ a day (poverty line to the IMF) isnt middle class. What is middle class? Define middle class.

Truth is, since 1973 the US standard of living has been declining. It also took a huge nose dive under Trilateral Commission puppet, Jimmy Carter. College costs have increased rapidly, while the private Federal Reserve keeps printing more and more money.

Free trade is unconstitutional since the constitution grants congress the right to regulate foreign commerce. Up until 1913, the greates source of tax for the Federal government were tariffs.

 

[BarneyFife]

A poll in early 2008 doesn't mean anything right now. You know it and I know it that alot of people are falling behind right now. To say that the middle class is shrinking because people are moving up is complete bullshit. Not even worth debating.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: RichardE
This is why protectionism is bad. Free trade allows all nations to improve there quality of life.

Protectionism is what made the US a great industrial power, it's only after we surpassed Britain that we became the proponents of free trade, and now we're being overtaken.

Awesome stuff.

Yeah right. Our industrial and rise to international super power happend post WWII. After we shed our protectionism. Along with it we saw drastic increases in standards of living. International trade is required if we want to achieve the highest standard of living.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
A poll in early 2008 doesn't mean anything right now. You know it and I know it that alot of people are falling behind right now. To say that the middle class is shrinking because people are moving up is complete bullshit. Not even worth debating.

If you actually comprehended what he posted, you would know he didnt say that. Shall I quote it for you or you want to go back and try again?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: RichardE
This is why protectionism is bad. Free trade allows all nations to improve there quality of life.

Protectionism is what made the US a great industrial power, it's only after we surpassed Britain that we became the proponents of free trade, and now we're being overtaken.

Awesome stuff.

Well, once you find a powerhouse like Europe was during that time to buy the goods the US makes, we might be able to go back to an industrialized nation.

Tell me though, who would buy American goods now? Especially with cheaper goods being manufactured elsewhere. Will the US buy the goods it makes? We can barely afford the cheap stuff :laugh: That is why this argument never makes sense. Sure if we had another Europe to sell shit too, we could be a great industrialized power, but now we are the Europe.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you just giving a little context.

The rules have certainly changed, but under the right conditions, tariff's and the like can actually be beneficial.

Until countries return tarrifs on goods your entire population uses and it cascades from there. I mean, sure Tarrifs on some items that might be unfairly being dumped are an option, but should by far be the last due to the potential repercussions.

Also, one thing on your statement, the abandonment of protectionism, when the US started selling arms, ships, ect during WW1, WW2 so the involvement in world trade, as well as the say it had in opening up trade barriers, loaning money ect was what skyrocketed the US to a great power. It took advantage of entering the war late and funding the clean up. Trade always has and always will be the engine of the economy.

Man, you libertarian hacks never cease to amaze me. Making more than 2$ a day (poverty line to the IMF) isnt middle class. What is middle class? Define middle class.

Truth is, since 1973 the US standard of living has been declining. It also took a huge nose dive under Trilateral Commission puppet, Jimmy Carter. College costs have increased rapidly, while the private Federal Reserve keeps printing more and more money.

Free trade is unconstitutional since the constitution grants congress the right to regulate foreign commerce. Up until 1913, the greates source of tax for the Federal government were tariffs.

Regulation of foreign commerce is a right granted to Congress under the Constitution. That doesn't imply they MUST exercise that right by imposing tariffs. Nothing in the Constitution forbids free trade and making that claim is one of the stupidest claims I've ever seen made in this forum, and that's saying something.

And I'll take libertarian hacks over paranoid, conspiracy theorist hacks any day of the week.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: RichardE
This is why protectionism is bad. Free trade allows all nations to improve there quality of life.

At our expense. No . We ARE AMERICANS, Our elections are based upon (we the people). We are not a World Government. Or a Tool of Industry. Government is to adminster law. and raise an army if required ,. A standing army in a free society is a contradiction in terms . US soldiers patroling American streets is a complete break down of that system . Were As WE THE PEOPLE Has Become WE THE Destoyers of liberity. Its a done deal . Their is nothing you can say or do about . But set back and relize as it unfolds befor your very eyes . How very blind ya really are. IF this System Failed . YOU can't fix it . With the same system or people who destoyed it to begin with .

Your reality is about to change.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: RichardE
This is why protectionism is bad. Free trade allows all nations to improve there quality of life.

At our expense. No . We ARE AMERICANS, Our elections are based upon (we the people). We are not a World Government. Or a Tool of Industry. Government is to adminster law. and raise an army if required ,. A standing army in a free society is a contradiction in terms . US soldiers patroling American streets is a complete break down of that system . Were As WE THE PEOPLE Has Been WE THE Destoyers of liberity. Its a done deal . Their is nothing you can say or do about . But set back and relize as it unfolds befor your very eyes . How very blind ya really are. IF this System Failed . YOU can't fix it . With the same system or people who destoyed it to begin with .

Your reality is about to change.

Outside of rhetoric how has your standard of living decreased in the past decade?

 

[Nemesis 1]

My stanard of living is a lie . Based on an old reality . Your about to see the new reality.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
My stanard of living is a lie . Based on an old reality . Your about to see the new reality.

You have lost it. :laugh:

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: RichardE
This is why protectionism is bad. Free trade allows all nations to improve there quality of life.

At our expense. No . We ARE AMERICANS, Our elections are based upon (we the people). We are not a World Government. Or a Tool of Industry. Government is to adminster law. and raise an army if required ,. A standing army in a free society is a contradiction in terms . US soldiers patroling American streets is a complete break down of that system . Were As WE THE PEOPLE Has Become WE THE Destoyers of liberity. Its a done deal . Their is nothing you can say or do about . But set back and relize as it unfolds befor your very eyes . How very blind ya really are. IF this System Failed . YOU can't fix it . With the same system or people who destoyed it to begin with .

Your reality is about to change.

Again, who is going to buy your stuff if you return to a industrial nation? :laugh:

Man...you need to subscribe to some different new newsletters..

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
My stanard of living is a lie . Based on an old reality . Your about to see the new reality.

How cliche. I'll take your attempt at being philosophical to mean you dont really believe what you speak. That your standard of living has increased over the past decade despite what protectionists and closet racists have told you.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: K3N

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: RichardE
This is why protectionism is bad. Free trade allows all nations to improve there quality of life.

Protectionism is what made the US a great industrial power, it's only after we surpassed Britain that we became the proponents of free trade, and now we're being overtaken.

Awesome stuff.

Well, once you find a powerhouse like Europe was during that time to buy the goods the US makes, we might be able to go back to an industrialized nation.

Tell me though, who would buy American goods now? Especially with cheaper goods being manufactured elsewhere. Will the US buy the goods it makes? We can barely afford the cheap stuff :laugh: That is why this argument never makes sense. Sure if we had another Europe to sell shit too, we could be a great industrialized power, but now we are the Europe.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you just giving a little context.

The rules have certainly changed, but under the right conditions, tariff's and the like can actually be beneficial.

Until countries return tarrifs on goods your entire population uses and it cascades from there. I mean, sure Tarrifs on some items that might be unfairly being dumped are an option, but should by far be the last due to the potential repercussions.

Also, one thing on your statement, the abandonment of protectionism, when the US started selling arms, ships, ect during WW1, WW2 so the involvement in world trade, as well as the say it had in opening up trade barriers, loaning money ect was what skyrocketed the US to a great power. It took advantage of entering the war late and funding the clean up. Trade always has and always will be the engine of the economy.

Man, you libertarian hacks never cease to amaze me. Making more than 2$ a day (poverty line to the IMF) isnt middle class. What is middle class? Define middle class.

Truth is, since 1973 the US standard of living has been declining. It also took a huge nose dive under Trilateral Commission puppet, Jimmy Carter. College costs have increased rapidly, while the private Federal Reserve keeps printing more and more money.

Free trade is unconstitutional since the constitution grants congress the right to regulate foreign commerce. Up until 1913, the greates source of tax for the Federal government were tariffs.

I've never been called a libertarian, that is a new one.

Can you provide evidence of a decline in the standard of living? What is standard of living to you? How exactly has it started to decline and what happened exactly in 1973 to cause this?

Do you think the US is self sustaining for all its citizens to maintain there way of life without having to trade with other nations?

Do you think that if you put tarrifs in place which would result in countries putting Tarrifs on you that you would be putting pressure on the Average citizen who depends on the low prices free trade brings?

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: RichardE
This is why protectionism is bad. Free trade allows all nations to improve there quality of life.

Protectionism is what made the US a great industrial power, it's only after we surpassed Britain that we became the proponents of free trade, and now we're being overtaken.

Awesome stuff.

Yeah right. Our industrial and rise to international super power happend post WWII. After we shed our protectionism. Along with it we saw drastic increases in standards of living. International trade is required if we want to achieve the highest standard of living.

Wrong, 1850-1900 that's when we eclipsed GB as the industrial power in the world, up until maybe the 1930s when we were overtaken briefly by Germany.

We would have never been in any position to do anything if it weren't for this period of extreme protectionism.

We can all thank honest Abe, those 40% tarif's helped us grow our internal industries.