The economic framework for austerity is getting even weaker

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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eskimospy, you are absolutely obsessed with the subject, don't let your obsession and your need to be superior to the rest of ATP&N cloud your judgment. Like I stated a long time ago in this thread, your original link includes as a major point an exclusion of some data during the 1940's. Seriously, no one gives a flying fuck about how the debt, spending, and economic growth levels of that time period relate to today because they don't. It's a vastly different world today than then.

Well you better tell the Reinhart and Rogoff that, as such data comprises a large portion of their data set. In fact even in their later studies if you remove the Axis powers recovering from war their regression coefficient basically disappears.

I will just throw out scenarios I believe is entirely plausible, see what you have to say:

A country has within it emerging businesses, emerging manufacturing, products and services that are new and in demand across the globe. The government, although in high debt, sees the potential and increases spending to help the businesses within the country grow. Investors, lenders, also see the growth potential of the private businesses and are more willing to lend money to fund the government's increased spending.

Or, a country is loaded with debt, it's manufacturing base is out-dated, infrastructure out-dated, there are no new technologies, or innovative products/services of large scale to promote out to the world. Investors and lenders see higher risk and are more weary of lending money to the country's government.

I don't really see what you're trying to prove.

It is entirely reasonable to be able to find examples of situations matching increased spending with increased growth, along with examples of decreased spending with decreased growth. You want to claim that the growth is a product of the spending levels. I would say that growth and spending levels are linked together, but not driven primarily by the spending levels, both being driven by other situations taking place within the country.

Nowhere have I ever claimed that growth is a product of government spending levels. I have claimed that austerity in a deeply depressed economy is counterproductive and foolish. This is quite well supported by both the literature and by recent real-world experience.

There are so many factors that go into whether a country grows economically or suffers. You found some computations that feed your ego, yet no where do they indicate they are relevant to the current situation this country is currently facing. I mean, fuck, your linked articles seem to take for granted an assumption that economic growth happens just because it is supposed to naturally happen. Growth largely happens when there is a breakthrough in technology, or a major shift in the way people in the world live/work/communicate/travel/etc., something kind of unpredictable and cannot be dictated by government spending levels.

Yes there are many factors into whether a country grows or not. That's what regression models are for. I have literally zero idea how you came to the idea that government spending would be all that mattered, as that has never been argued by anyone ever. What we DO know is that government spending levels influence growth, which is of course the whole point.

I like how pointing out that a ruinous economic policy that is causing significant suffering to millions is poorly supported by the evidence is feeding my ego. This is a real problem that affects you... as in your life today, as we're all in this together. Amazing how people get so worked up over a kid shot in Florida but casually dismiss something that is taking money out of their pockets with a 'I guess there's no way to know!'.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Chronology:

DSF: BTW....here's their 2012 paper which fixes the spreadsheet error and addresses the "selectively excluded" data criticism. Please note that their conclusion hasn't substantially changed.

Not only are they building off their original flawed study...

DSF: They addressed the "flaws" you previously noted in their original study...have new "flaws" been found?

They didn't address them, they didn't even know of them when they made that study.
DSF: I think you're confused...the original paper with the errors was done in 2010, the corrected paper that I linked above was done on 2012.

No, definitely not confused about that.
DSF: The paper referred to in the link within your original post was done in 2010 (http://www.nber.org/papers/w15639.pdf).

The 2012 paper I previously linked addressed the major criticisms of the 2010 paper. (http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...ts/JEP0413.pdf)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/17/bu...goff.html?_r=0

There still appears to be some confusion on this point.

No, there's no confusion. Their second paper does not address the same things as their first.
**********************************************

The most notable difference in the two papers (besides the errors in the first which were "fixed" in the second) is that the first used data from forty four countries spanning up to two centuries of data, and the second used data from 26 episodes (since 1800) of public debt overhang in advanced economies.

Both papers conclude that high debt/GDP levels (90 percent and above) are associated with notably lower growth outcomes. In addition, the second paper concludes that the average duration of our debt overhang was 23 years.

You either didn't read the papers, misunderstood the papers, or you're being intentionally dishonest when you say "Their second paper does not address the same things as their first." Which is it?
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
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The most notable difference in the two papers (besides the errors in the first which were "fixed" in the second) is that the first used data from forty four countries spanning up to two centuries of data, and the second used data from 26 episodes (since 1800) of public debt overhang in advanced economies.

Both papers conclude that high debt/GDP levels (90 percent and above) are associated with notably lower growth outcomes. In addition, the second paper concludes that the average duration of our debt overhang was 23 years.

You either didn't read the papers, misunderstood the papers, or you're being intentionally dishonest when you say "Their second paper does not address the same things as their first." Which is it?

You may have read their paper, but if you did you certainly didn't understand it. If you look at their data for 2012 there is absolutely no break point at 90% debt/GDP, which was of course the only significant takeaway from their 2010 paper. Did you not read the paper well, did you not understand what you were reading, or are you being intentionally dishonest?

Furthermore, their data set for 2012 is heavily impacted by the postwar axis powers rebuilding after having their countries leveled. Growth there is nearly certain to be abnormal. If you remove them, their regression coefficient basically disappears. So to wrap up, not only does the second paper not actually fix the flaws of the first, but the data does not support a breakpoint of 90%. In fact the study is based on countries with debt exceeding that level; it is not an attempt to identify such a break point, because they already wrongly thought they had identified such a measure in their first, now discredited study.

So to clear up any confusion on your end once and for all, there is absolutely zero confusion on my part. The 2012 analysis did NOTHING to fix the flaws of the 2010 study. Nothing.

I notice that once again you haven't answered basic questions I asked you:

1.) Are you arguing that austerity lowers debt/GDP ratio at a better rate than maintaining or increasing government spending? If so, how do you square this with updated IMF analysis on fiscal multipliers?

2.) If not, are you still claiming that there is a 90% breakpoint? If so, how do you square this with criticisms of R/R and more recent IMF work on this that identifies no such breakpoint?

If you aren't arguing either one of those, I assume that you are now an opponent of austerity as well.

Finally, once again I will ask: can you verify that you are still arguing that austerity is the best policy in our current economic situation?
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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As the government is required to live within its means those that refuse to do so will suffer.

People that are dependent on the government will feel the impact.

People that the government has an impact on may also feel an impact.

That article is misleading because Europe isn't under real austerity. And people dependent on government should feel the impact because they need to realize that they are stealing tax dollars from the taxpayer.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
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A good op-ed piece by Krugman on this subject:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/29/o...of-our-time.html?ref=paulkrugman&_r=0#38;_r=0

It's interesting how the pro-austerity crowd keeps making their same old claims, even though the theoretical basis for those claims has been significantly weakened and real-world attempts at austerity have proven to be of no benefit at best and disastrous at worst.

Those of us who have spent years arguing against premature fiscal austerity have just had a good two weeks. Academic studies that supposedly justified austerity have lost credibility; hard-liners in the European Commission and elsewhere have softened their rhetoric. The tone of the conversation has definitely changed.

My sense, however, is that many people still don’t understand what this is all about. So this seems like a good time to offer a sort of refresher on the nature of our economic woes, and why this remains a very bad time for spending cuts.

Let’s start with what may be the most crucial thing to understand: the economy is not like an individual family.

Families earn what they can, and spend as much as they think prudent; spending and earning opportunities are two different things. In the economy as a whole, however, income and spending are interdependent: my spending is your income, and your spending is my income. If both of us slash spending at the same time, both of our incomes will fall too.

And that’s what happened after the financial crisis of 2008.
Many people suddenly cut spending, either because they chose to or because their creditors forced them to; meanwhile, not many people were able or willing to spend more. The result was a plunge in incomes that also caused a plunge in employment, creating the depression that persists to this day.

Why did spending plunge? Mainly because of a burst housing bubble and an overhang of private-sector debt — but if you ask me, people talk too much about what went wrong during the boom years and not enough about what we should be doing now. For no matter how lurid the excesses of the past, there’s no good reason that we should pay for them with year after year of mass unemployment.

So what could we do to reduce unemployment? The answer is, this is a time for above-normal government spending, to sustain the economy until the private sector is willing to spend again. The crucial point is that under current conditions, the government is not, repeat not, in competition with the private sector. Government spending doesn’t divert resources away from private uses; it puts unemployed resources to work. Government borrowing doesn’t crowd out private investment; it mobilizes funds that would otherwise go unused.

Now, just to be clear, this is not a case for more government spending and larger budget deficits under all circumstances — and the claim that people like me always want bigger deficits is just false. For the economy isn’t always like this — in fact, situations like the one we’re in are fairly rare. By all means let’s try to reduce deficits and bring down government indebtedness once normal conditions return and the economy is no longer depressed. But right now we’re still dealing with the aftermath of a once-in-three-generations financial crisis. This is no time for austerity.

O.K., I’ve just given you a story, but why should you believe it? There are, after all, people who insist that the real problem is on the economy’s supply side: that workers lack the skills they need, or that unemployment insurance has destroyed the incentive to work, or that the looming menace of universal health care is preventing hiring, or whatever. How do we know that they’re wrong?

Well, I could go on at length on this topic, but just look at the predictions the two sides in this debate have made. People like me predicted right from the start that large budget deficits would have little effect on interest rates, that large-scale “money printing” by the Fed (not a good description of actual Fed policy, but never mind) wouldn’t be inflationary, that austerity policies would lead to terrible economic downturns. The other side jeered, insisting that interest rates would skyrocket and that austerity would actually lead to economic expansion. Ask bond traders, or the suffering populations of Spain, Portugal and so on, how it actually turned out.

Is the story really that simple, and would it really be that easy to end the scourge of unemployment? Yes — but powerful people don’t want to believe it. Some of them have a visceral sense that suffering is good, that we must pay a price for past sins (even if the sinners then and the sufferers now are very different groups of people). Some of them see the crisis as an opportunity to dismantle the social safety net. And just about everyone in the policy elite takes cues from a wealthy minority that isn’t actually feeling much pain.

What has happened now, however, is that the drive for austerity has lost its intellectual fig leaf, and stands exposed as the expression of prejudice, opportunism and class interest it always was. And maybe, just maybe, that sudden exposure will give us a chance to start doing something about the depression we’re in.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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"By all means let&#8217;s try to reduce deficits and bring down government indebtedness once normal conditions return and the economy is no longer depressed."

Did someone batf*ck insane add this to his political speech or did he actually say this?
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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^ I'm always curious to see if people change their minds after years of data proving their original prognostications wrong. After significant inflation never materialized, after austerity policies ravaged Europe and the UK into a double dip, after the U.S. created millions of jobs and recovered with significant (early) spending during the recession, did anyone on the side of the aisle that was wrong actually change their minds? Some did, most didn't. This is the sad reality about human nature; especially the old dog new tricks among us. Entrenched thinking wreaks havoc on human progress.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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"By all means let’s try to reduce deficits and bring down government indebtedness once normal conditions return and the economy is no longer depressed."

Did someone batf*ck insane add this to his political speech or did he actually say this?

There wasn't a period of time Krugman didn't hold that position. Austerity during a recession is plain dumb and has been thoroughly debunked. Austerity during good times makes sense, especially if higher interest rates on the debt is looming immediately. Except it's not.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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There wasn't a period of time Krugman didn't hold that position. Austerity during a recession is plain dumb and has been thoroughly debunked. Austerity during good times makes sense, especially if higher interest rates on the debt is looming immediately. Except it's not.

No my point is, WhoTF is insane enough to actually advocate for spending in the bad times justified by austerity in the good times, when we know that there will be no austerity (to the extent and duration needed to offset the spending done in the bad times) in the good times?

Why even suggest it? It's going to be a non-event, or, at best, an event so close to a non-event as to just make it a non-event.

Chuck
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
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No my point is, WhoTF is insane enough to actually advocate for spending in the bad times justified by austerity in the good times, when we know that there will be no austerity (to the extent and duration needed to offset the spending done in the bad times) in the good times?

Why even suggest it? It's going to be a non-event, or, at best, an event so close to a non-event as to just make it a non-event.

Chuck

Look at all those non-events! It's very interesting what you apparently "know" has absolutely no relationship with history. Do you think that if you just keep repeating this nonsense long enough that someone will believe you?

debt-and-gdp-main6.png


Now we all need to prepare for the litany of excuses. I'm anticipating "if debt didn't go down in absolute dollars it doesn't count" followed by "yeah but now things are different I swear".
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
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That is good news except it won't happen anytime soon with that piece of shit obama and his liberal cronies.

Okay, I'll ask YOU: Where's your evidence that a reduced government will cause the economy to flourish?

Don't just make more empty statements. Back up your claims with real evidence.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
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We can look at where the expansion of Government, has left us in a hole today.

The sea's are being raped.

Housing and Healthcare are unaffordable.

Each American, owes some $80,000 to...

Government, Lawyers, and Insurance Companies.

-John
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
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First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

-John (Martin Niemöller)
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
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We can look at where the expansion of Government, has left us in a hole today.

The sea's are being raped.

Housing and Healthcare are unaffordable.


Each American, owes some $80,000 to...

Government, Lawyers, and Insurance Companies.

-John

And on what basis do you conclude that the bad things I've bolded have been caused by the "expansion of government."

Asserting a causal relationship doesn't make it true.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Proof? Who needs proof when you have such flowery quotations and so much raw conviction behind your unsupported assertions. He may not have any evidence, but he *really* wants what he's saying to be true.

Doesn't that count for something?
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

-John (Martin Niemöller)

What, exactly, is the parallel you see between Nazi oppression of various groups and "big government?" Or more specifically, which group did "big government" go after first that you're not a part of? And which group do YOU belong to that you expect "big government" to come after eventually?

You do realize, don't you, that it's the right-wing zealots who are "going after" people? Specifically, they're going after the middle class and the poor, because THOSE are the people whose social benefits must be sacrificed to "make government smaller."

If there's any parallel here, it's to the super rich. Because the they're the only group who the far right DOESN'T want to "go after" (and, in fact, it's the group that will hugely benefit when the tax system is "restructured" and marginal rates are lowered). But you aren't able to see that parallel, are you? Interesting.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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Look at all those non-events! It's very interesting what you apparently "know" has absolutely no relationship with history. Do you think that if you just keep repeating this nonsense long enough that someone will believe you?

debt-and-gdp-main6.png


Now we all need to prepare for the litany of excuses. I'm anticipating "if debt didn't go down in absolute dollars it doesn't count" followed by "yeah but now things are different I swear".

Correct, it doesn't. The entire Spender mantra hinges on paying down the debt in the good times that was generated in the bad times. Plotting the debt relative to GDP is just a smokescreen, an excuse, a diversion, to take the attention away that the debt was never paid down. That is, the justification of the Spender mantra was and is complete and total bullshit. This is why you must make it relative to GDP. Because if you put up a graph of total debt, you'd be arguing against yourself.

No excuses, just debunking the con.

Look, just be honest with people. Tell them we need to spend a ton of money we don't have to get the economy going again (since no other entities will), and that we'll never pay it back. You don't need to lie, just be honest with them is all I ask. Cutting them a $5k tax free check every 6 months will really help win them over. You'd be surprised how people will come together when you're both honest with them and bribe them. No need to lie...

Chuck
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
55,355
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Correct, it doesn't. The entire Spender mantra hinges on paying down the debt in the good times that was generated in the bad times. Plotting the debt relative to GDP is just a smokescreen, an excuse, a diversion, to take the attention away that the debt was never paid down. That is, the justification of the Spender mantra was and is complete and total bullshit. This is why you must make it relative to GDP. Because if you put up a graph of total debt, you'd be arguing against yourself.

No excuses, just debunking the con.

Look, just be honest with people. Tell them we need to spend a ton of money we don't have to get the economy going again (since no other entities will), and that we'll never pay it back. You don't need to lie, just be honest with them is all I ask. Cutting them a $5k tax free check every 6 months will really help win them over. You'd be surprised how people will come together when you're both honest with them and bribe them. No need to lie...

Chuck

You make it relative to GDP because real GDP measured in 2005 dollars was about $4 billion in 1790 and is about $14 trillion today. How much you owe is irrelevant unless we know how much you make. It is amazing to see how desperate you are to avoid threatening thoughts that you have convinced yourself that the measure used by the overwhelming majority of economists of all ideological persuasions is somehow a sneaky lie developed by those evil Keynesians. Desperation 101.

I've found the stages of conservative grief about Keynesian economics goes something like this:
1.) Keynesian economics doesn't work.
2.) Okay, data says it works but all the figures are a lie.
3.) Okay, the figures aren't a lie but we could never implement it.
4.) Okay, we've implemented it in the past but now we should focus on other, irrelevant measures that I just made up.

What a joke.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
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I haven't made anything up. Since you like graphs, and I'm sure you have it available, post up what the total Fed debt was for all those years. Show us where it went down. Remember: The Spender mantra is that we will pay down the debt in the good years that we racked up in the bad.

This should be easy for you. All you have to show is all the times the Fed debt was paid down in all the good years (no tricks like stealing from SS please, we want real untainted numbers).

What are you so afraid of? I've said in other threads I'm fully onboard with the Spender ideology and I'm awaiting my $5k check, F man, I'm ready to stimulate the shit out of this economy! I'm onboard with you guys. But I don't want to be dishonest with the public like you...I fully intend to tell them we're blowing money we don't have, and that we'll never pay back. Why do you insist on trying to smokescreen the public when selling your ideology?