The Dutch government will abandon the model of a multicultural society

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Nov 29, 2006
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The problem is that you don't see this as a precursor for imminent genocidal actions. We're about due for another European genocide, this is simply the precursor for it

That is highly unlikely to happen in Europe today. If anything they would just kick all muslims out for example or send them back to whatever country they came from. They wouldnt gather them up in camps and kill them.

Im not saying that couldnt happen, but i believe it is HIGHLY unlikely in todays world from Europe.
 
May 11, 2008
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This is what i know about Srebrenica.



The dutch government voted in may 1993 to voluntarily help out the UN in what is formerly known as Yugoslavia. The dutch have a constitution article that states that the dutch should help to maintain international right. It is article 90. The dutch politicians voted in favor and offered the UN to help in Yugoslavia. The UN accepted and the dutch could help out in an area that was declared save by the UN. There would be no fighting, just protection of the Muslims from the Bosnian Serbs fighters under control of General Mladic. The presence of the UN was enough to keep the Serbs back. This was ensured by the UN. UNPROFOR mandate requested that no heavy weaponry was allowed.
The issue was that the inexperienced dutch politicians who where responsible had the idea that it is not wise to send heavy material in order to not provoke attacks. This was indeed totally wrong. The politicians where no army generals with experience, keep this in mind. The dutch where send in with light arms(probably not even touching the UN mandate) and without heavy material because it was assumed that there would be no fighting. Only after the dutch soldiers called dutchbat where stationed in Srebrenica replacing the Canadians, UN resolution 836 was augmented that the blue helmets (dutchbat where also blue helmets) where allowed to use any force necessary to protect but in defense only. This seems pretty clear. However, dutchbat was instructed to not shoot at the Bosnian Serbs by the UN ( i assume by Bernard Janvier).

Dutchbat was send to protect the Muslims and not fight wars with them. It happened that a dutch soldier died because a muslim warrior had thrown a grenade towards dutchbat that cost the life of a dutchbat soldier Raviv van Rensen. This made life not easy for dutchbat, they had to protect people who had no problem killing them it seemed. Still they continued to do so. In retrospect it seems there where more problems between the muslim warriors and dutchbat. All this caused indeed a hostile environment and an anti Muslim warrior attitude for some of the dutchbat soldiers.

It was warned by many foreign agencies that Mladic would attack the Muslims in Srebrenica. However, for some reason unknown this information was not used or believed. The politicians in the Netherlands and the responsible people in the UN where having difficulties with communication of some sort, this is still no excuse because the UN knew about the warnings from these agencies as well. Then on Juli 6 1995 the Bosnian Serbs of course came with tanks and other heavy material . Of course dutchbat was no match with light arms only and light armored vehicles. Dutchbat asked for air support from the UN but this was denied. On July 9 dutchbat created a roadblock and tried to stop the Serbs who of course did not stop. Again air support is denied by the UN. July 10, the UN confirms air support for the next morning around 7:00 am( assume greenwich time). On July 11, 7:00 am nothing happens. Dutchbat again ask the UN for air support. Bernard Janvier has denied air support once again. It is not clear for me if it is always every time Bernard Janvier on the UN side or not. On 11:00 am, The Serbs had taken control of the town. When finally air support is approved, 2 dutch F16 planes attack, guided by FAC (forward air controllers) 1 F16 dropped 2 unguided mk82 bombs. Mladic had taken more or less 50 dutchbat soldiers as hostages and threatend to shoot them if the air attacks do not stop. Thus after communication between the dutch government and the UN the 2 F16 fighter planes stop attacking (Had already stopped more or less because these planes where circling around for a while waiting for instructions, low on fuel it was mentioned). The Muslim women and children where taken away by bus. The Muslim men where shot by the Serbs. The dutch government resigned. And new elections had to take place. Stupid mistakes where made by newly elected politicians not understanding how sensitive the nature was.


The big question is where was the real air support ? Why was dutchbat left alone with the Serbs ?
Why was UN claiming the area was save while the Serbs and the Muslims where still fighting ?
Why was dutchbat according to UPROFOR mandate only allowed to carry light arms and light armoured personnel carriers ?
Why was the information that the Serbs where going to kill the Muslims not taking seriously by the UN and the responsible dutch politicians at the time ?
Why was Bernard Janvier from the UN constantly refusing air strikes on the Serbs when dutchbat requested it?
One version is that Janvier did not want to cause victims under the Muslim citizens (women, children and the elder).

Why is it that only 2 dutch F16 fighters( one of the fighters is a female fighter pilot called Manja BLok) could do an (useless attempted) air strike ?
Why is there an report claims that that Muslims freedom warriors from Mujahedin and hezbollah and hamas where helping the Muslim warriors in Srebrenica ?
Why is it that Mladic made sure that there was a video where he was "partying" with the dutchbat commmander Karremans ?

What is obvious is that the responsible dutch politicians where fools and should not have participated. These kind of operations must be left to army professionals with experience and not to manager politicians who think they can solve it with a small amount of men without proper weaponry.
Could the soldiers have been more heroic and starting a useless fight where not only them but probably Muslim civilians would have died too ? They could have but they did not. It seems the good will of the dutch to help protect the Muslims backfired on them. Now the dutch are blamed for a mess that is only partially the fault of the dutch. But in a different context then many think. But that is my opinion and perhaps my background reading does not reveal everything. I have taken this information from multiple dutch independent critical news sites.
 

OutHouse

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Jun 5, 2000
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That is highly unlikely to happen in Europe today. If anything they would just kick all muslims out for example or send them back to whatever country they came from. They wouldnt gather them up in camps and kill them.

Im not saying that couldnt happen, but i believe it is HIGHLY unlikely in todays world from Europe.

never heard of the Srebrenica massacre?
 
May 11, 2008
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This is a typed description of an interview with the fighter pilot.

http://www.fighterops.com/forum/showthread.php?5364-Dutch-(female)-F-16-pilot-destroys-tanks
There is an *.asf stream but it is in dutch.

http://cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/streams?/tv/ncrv/villahistorica/bb.20060710.asf

It is funny that the English version of Srebrenica on wikipedia claims there was no air strike at all.


EDIT :

This version is correct :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebre....9311_July_1995:_Serb_take-over_of_Srebrenica

This version is not :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutchbat
 
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Was this the reason, that the responsible General (French) Bernard Janvier did not allow nato air support :

From the correct wiki :
On 4 June 1995, the French commander of the UN forces in former Yugoslavia, general Bernard Janvier, secretly met Ratko Mladic to obtain the release of hostages, many of whom were French. Mladic demanded of Janvier that there would be no more air strikes.


Is this really true ?
 
Aug 14, 2001
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Things have a difficult time jumping across oceans. Besides, if it did spread, by that time hopefully the Europeans will have wiped out the undesirables they've been letting in for the past 20 years.

It would spread. Look at history. Europeans will just say that Americans are undesirables next, along with the rest of the non-European world.
 
Aug 14, 2001
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That is highly unlikely to happen in Europe today. If anything they would just kick all muslims out for example or send them back to whatever country they came from. They wouldnt gather them up in camps and kill them.

Im not saying that couldnt happen, but i believe it is HIGHLY unlikely in todays world from Europe.

Many of the Muslims are actually born in these countries - they're citizens. I would think that it's more likely that we see the genocide of minorities in Europe before they're simply 'kicked out.'
 
Aug 14, 2001
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Was this the reason, that the responsible General (French) Bernard Janvier did not allow nato air support :

From the correct wiki :



Is this really true ?

It wouldn't surprise me, the French generally have their hands in other modern genocides. I suppose then it would be a combination of typical French pro-genocide actions and Dutch cowardice.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
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Many of the Muslims are actually born in these countries - they're citizens. I would think that it's more likely that we see the genocide of minorities in Europe before they're simply 'kicked out.'

Sweet, that's long term thinking. Then you don't have to worry about them trying to come back, or plotting revenge back in their shithole countries.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
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It would spread. Look at history. Europeans will just say that Americans are undesirables next, along with the rest of the non-European world.

Well, honestly it's kind of hard to argue that Europeans aren't better than us in a lot of ways. Think of how much further along we'd be as a nation if we hadn't foolishly thrown off the loving embrace of mother England, along with it's protections, capital investment and diplomatic ties.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Nothing in my text has stated that i am what you claim i am. Thinking of white supremacy sites...

Ha... I was loosely following Gaatjes escapades with the loons and it looks like he's reached the end of the amusement park ride. That's the park where COW/Rabid call anyone who disagrees with them a white supremacist.

Yes, most of us agree it's best to just ignore COW/Rabid. Once in a while it's funny to see them contort themselves to explain current events (like Obama dining with the Queen of England they claim he hates), but for the most part they're boring and repetitive.
 
Aug 14, 2001
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I'm not sure if William Gaatjes is a white supremacist, I certainly haven't read enough of his posts. However, Infohawk/Baasha is most definitely part of the white supremacist gang here. Hell, he refuses to denounce white supremacist ideology.
 

nonlnear

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Jan 31, 2008
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I'm not sure if William Gaatjes is a white supremacist, I certainly haven't read enough of his posts. However, Infohawk/Baasha is most definitely part of the white supremacist gang here. Hell, he refuses to denounce white supremacist ideology.
Baasha is an Indian supremacist.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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I'm not sure if William Gaatjes is a white supremacist, I certainly haven't read enough of his posts. However, Infohawk/Baasha is most definitely part of the white supremacist gang here. Hell, he refuses to denounce white supremacist ideology.

Infohawk is pro-Israel if memory serves. White supremacists hate Jews and Israel. In fact, they hate Jews far more than anyone else.

- wolf
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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That would be disappointing.

Infohawk is pro-Israel if memory serves. White supremacists hate Jews and Israel. In fact, they hate Jews far more than anyone else.

- wolf

He just keeps repeating the lie (despite obvious evidence to the contrary) to perpetuate it because I've disagreed with him in the past. No reason to keep feeding the troll here.
 
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Infohawk is pro-Israel if memory serves. White supremacists hate Jews and Israel. In fact, they hate Jews far more than anyone else.

- wolf

You've been duped. InfoHawk is probably the most vocal white supremacist here. Even when pressed on it, he adamantly refused to denounce his white supremacist beliefs.

Baasha and InfoHawk are one and the same. I have to admit that he is a very good troll.
 
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It wouldn't surprise me, the French generally have their hands in other modern genocides. I suppose then it would be a combination of typical French pro-genocide actions and Dutch cowardice.

You should stop posting. A dried up poop stain inside a thrown away piece of underwear is of more value then you, rabidmongoose. You do not supply any form of information.

The problem is that in a civil war nobody wins. Not even the foreigners going in to help. I read the witness accounts of Srebrenica. I feel horrible and had trouble sleeping last night but it is nothing compared to what those poor people had to go through. I feel for them. Why the UN did not do a full scale bombing on the Serbs is probably because of the ties with Russia ? I do not know. Politics where playing a part here.

But you will probably laugh at it and will play a game of GTA or some battlefield war game, thinking you are a cool person. Boldly trolling on a forum instead of educating your self. Instead of understanding this kind of horror and despair.

So i will leave this here and you can claim that you would have attacked them all as you do at your halo game. I mean you would just respawn right ?


According to the testimony of Zumra Šehomerovic:
The Serbs began at a certain point to take girls and young women out of the group of refugees. They were raped. The rapes often took place under the eyes of others and sometimes even under the eyes of the children of the mother. A Dutch soldier stood by and he simply looked around with a walkman on his head. He did not react at all to what was happening. It did not happen just before my eyes, for I saw that personally, but also before the eyes of us all. The Dutch soldiers walked around everywhere. It is impossible that they did not see it.

There was a woman with a small baby a few months old. A Chetnik told the mother that the child must stop crying. When the child did not stop crying he snatched the child away and cut its throat. Then he laughed. There was a Dutch soldier there who was watching. He did not react at all.

I saw yet more frightful things. For example, there was a girl, she must have been about nine years old. At a certain moment some Chetniks recommended to her brother that he rape the girl. He did not do it and I also think that he could not have done it for he was still just a child. Then they murdered that young boy. I have personally seen all that. I really want to emphasize that all this happened in the immediate vicinity of the base. In the same way I also saw other people who were murdered. Some of them had their throat cut. Others were beheaded.


Testimony of Ramiza Gurdić:
"I saw how a young boy of about ten was killed by Serbs in Dutch uniform. This happened in front of my own eyes. The mother sat on the ground and her young son sat beside her. The young boy was placed on his mother’s lap. The young boy was killed. His head was cut off. The body remained on the lap of the mother. The Serbian soldier placed the head of the young boy on his knife and showed it to everyone... I saw how a pregnant woman was slaughtered. There were Serbs who stabbed her in the stomach, cut her open and took two small children out of her stomach and then beat them to death on the ground. I saw this with my own eyes."


Next time you "killed" someone at your videogame, you can claim you "raped" them again...
 
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Aug 14, 2001
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You should stop posting. A dried up poop stain inside a thrown away piece of underwear is of more value then you, rabidmongoose. You do not supply any form of information.

The problem is that in a civil war nobody wins. Not even the foreigners going in to help. I read the witness accounts of Srebrenica. I feel horrible and had trouble sleeping last night but it is nothing compared to what those poor people had to go through. I feel for them. Why the UN did not do a full scale bombing on the Serbs is probably because of the ties with Russia ? I do not know. Politics where playing a part here.

But you will probably laugh at it and will play a game of GTA or some battlefield war game, thinking you are a cool person. Boldly trolling on a forum instead of educating your self. Instead of understanding this kind of horror and despair.

So i will leave this here and you can claim that you would have attacked them all as you do at your halo game. I mean you would just respawn right ?


Next time you "killed" someone at your videogame, you can claim you "raped" them again...

I have no idea what your video game references seem to be talking about. Sorry, but I don't play any video games whatsoever, so your mention and analogies to random video games just portray you as a giant neckbearded nerd.

Anyways, obviously a civil war is bad. However, your entire post doesn't address the Dutch and their cowardice. They were real soldiers assigned to a post and they abandoned it and allowed a genocide to happen. This is a well known incident and I have no idea why you're bringing in your obese neckbeard video games into it.

The Dutch were cowards and performed one of the most cowardly acts of the last 100 years. End of story, no matter how many video game references you seem to bring up. The Dutch cowardice was so alarming that they were even sued by the survivors of the genocide. Hell, that's not even bringing up the Dutch facilitation of the genocide.

It's clear that your nationalistic pride is preventing you from realizing that the Dutch failed in Srebrenica, they were cowards, and it was pathetic. This is typical European thinking, never acknowledging that there is a problem and instead making up excuses or trying to justify it or apparently talking about video games because you're an obese neckbeard.
 
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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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You've been duped. InfoHawk is probably the most vocal white supremacist here. Even when pressed on it, he adamantly refused to denounce his white supremacist beliefs.

Baasha and InfoHawk are one and the same. I have to admit that he is a very good troll.

Supply a link please.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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I'm not going to go search through his posting history to when he refused to denounce his white supremacist beliefs. Ultimately, it doesn't mean as much as the actual beliefs that he regularly posts anyways.

"White supremacist" is a very specific ideology the core tenant of which is anti-semitism. Infohawk shows no trace of anti-semitism in his posts. If you can't provide a link then you need to at least give an example of what you consider a "white supremacist" belief.
 
Aug 14, 2001
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"White supremacist" is a very specific ideology the core tenant of which is anti-semitism. Infohawk shows no trace of anti-semitism in his posts. If you can't provide a link then you need to at least give an example of what you consider a "white supremacist" belief.

You have your own definition for it then. White supremacy to most people is the belief that white people are superior to those of other racial backgrounds, which encompasses more than semitic people. Clearly InfoHawk is a white supremacist in that he has a hatred of non-whites.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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You have your own definition for it then. White supremacy to most people is the belief that white people are superior to those of other racial backgrounds, which encompasses more than semitic people. Clearly InfoHawk is a white supremacist in that he has a hatred of non-whites.

No I don't have my "own" definition of it. The white supermacist movement in the United States is specifically neo-nazi. Not every form of racism, xenophobia or bigotry is "white supremacism." And even if I adhere to your overly broad definition, I also do not agree that Infohawk has ever said that "white people are superior to those of other racial backgrounds" or anything to that effect. I'm not going to say - because I'm not sure - that he is free from all forms of prejudice. But it's clear that you're mischaracterizing him, doubly clear because when called on it you can't produce a single link.