The Dutch government will abandon the model of a multicultural society

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CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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Head scarfs are not an issue depending on the job of course. You can see women who dress modern and wear a headscarf daily. And very attractive anyway. Even some non Muslim women wear head scarfs from time to time.

Burkas are a different matter. A man can wear a burka and you would not know it if it is a man or a woman. At a lot of public institutions it is required that anyone can be recognized properly. For example, it is not the first time someone in a burka start filling gas in the car and then drives off without paying. The same thing has happened with people wearing helmets and filling up the gas of the motorcycle. Same rules that the face must be visible for the security camera or in other situations for security personnel to estimate the situation. For as far as i know everybody must be recognizable. And that is for as far as i know the real and main reason there is strong opposition against burkas.

Next...

A lot of what you say is valid. However, you are incorrect on the purpose. The legislative histories, news reporting, debates, etc. revolve around discrimination and oppression. Why else would there be arguments regarding culture?

Discrimination and oppression are not valid purposes.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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I think what you're failing to understand is that even if the Europeans building up to another genocide, Americans don't care. We never have. If you recall, we inspected Hitler's concentration camps and said they were fine before we became involved in World War II (for other reasons.)

Why were we involved in stopping Europe's 1990s genocide then?
 
Aug 14, 2001
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I think what you're failing to understand is that even if the Europeans building up to another genocide, Americans don't care. We never have. If you recall, we inspected Hitler's concentration camps and said they were fine before we became involved in World War II (for other reasons.)

We cared in WW2 and, as mentioned above, in the 1990s. The US and the rest of the world understand that it is not wise to let Europe go unchecked in its genocidal tendencies. Look at what Europe did to most of the world - so many problems can be traced to European colonialism, which regularly involved genocide. If you allow Europe to do whatever it wants, you will suffer down the line.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
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Why were we involved in stopping Europe's 1990s genocide then?

Because of the destabilizing economic impact it was having on US businesses and resource access.

We've ignored plenty of genocides worldwide. The only ones we've ever gotten involved in have been for financial\political reasons. Let's not forget that we executed one of the most effective, beneficial and undisputed genocides of the past few hundred years against the native americans. And they don't even bitch about it like the Palestinians.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
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0
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Because of the destabilizing economic impact it was having on US businesses and resource access.

We've ignored plenty of genocides worldwide. The only ones we've ever gotten involved in have been for financial\political reasons. Let's not forget that we executed one of the most effective, beneficial and undisputed genocides of the past few hundred years against the native americans. And they don't even bitch about it like the Palestinians.
Maybe the Palestinians would sit down and shut up if we only somebody would let them build casinos. Now there's an innovative peace plan!
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
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Because of the destabilizing economic impact it was having on US businesses and resource access.

We've ignored plenty of genocides worldwide. The only ones we've ever gotten involved in have been for financial\political reasons. Let's not forget that we executed one of the most effective, beneficial and undisputed genocides of the past few hundred years against the native americans. And they don't even bitch about it like the Palestinians.

And you don't think that another genocide in Europe, one with a much larger geographic impact, would be a destabilizing force on US businesses and resource access?
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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I think for as much superiority as the average EU person portrays themself as having, that the US should simply stay the F out of the next round of idiocy over there. China and Russia could sign a cooperative agreement to split EU in two for themselves, and it wouldn't bother me a bit. In fact, Russian tanks rolling across the EU countryside, while we sent over videos of smug EU's proclaiming the US is the worlds policeman, the US is an aggressor, the US are torturers (just wait until they feel the love of the peaceful Russians and Chinese) would bring a huge smile to my face.

Good for the Dutch though... :D
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
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Because of the destabilizing economic impact it was having on US businesses and resource access.

We've ignored plenty of genocides worldwide. The only ones we've ever gotten involved in have been for financial\political reasons. Let's not forget that we executed one of the most effective, beneficial and undisputed genocides of the past few hundred years against the native americans. And they don't even bitch about it like the Palestinians.

Good point about the native Americans - the vast majority of whom (all throughout the Americas) were killed by Europeans. It's too bad that Americans just continued the existing European policy.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
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Good point about the native Americans - the vast majority of whom (all throughout the Americas) were killed by Europeans. It's too bad that Americans just continued the existing European policy.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't hold out your hopes for us intervening in another European genocide.
 
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tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
1,130
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FWIW:

Dutch court acquits anti-Islam lawmaker

AMSTERDAM – A Dutch court acquitted populist politician Geert Wilders of hate speech and discrimination Thursday, ruling that his anti-Islam statements, while offensive to many Muslims, fell within the bounds of legitimate political debate. Presiding judge Marcel van Oosten said Wilders' claims that Islam is violent by nature, and his calls to halt Muslim immigration and ban the Muslim holy book, the Quran, must be seen in a wider context of debate over immigration policy.
The court said his public statements could not be directly linked to increased discrimination against Dutch Muslims.
Wilders sat stone-faced while the judge read the ruling, but smiled broadly and shook hands with his lawyers after the verdict was announced. He waved to cheering supporters who hugged each other in the public gallery, and grinned as he left the courtroom.
.....
 

PingviN

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2009
1,848
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I think for as much superiority as the average EU person portrays themself as having, that the US should simply stay the F out of the next round of idiocy over there. China and Russia could sign a cooperative agreement to split EU in two for themselves, and it wouldn't bother me a bit. In fact, Russian tanks rolling across the EU countryside, while we sent over videos of smug EU's proclaiming the US is the worlds policeman, the US is an aggressor, the US are torturers (just wait until they feel the love of the peaceful Russians and Chinese) would bring a huge smile to my face.

You wont have to worry about that. China and Russia have no military interest in Europe. I think the age of World Wars is over, at least in the vicinity of Europe, globalization put a stop to that. There is nothing to be gained for Russia or China by invading Europe. Europe is not a military aggressor.

If you know about earlier conflicts (WWI and WWII) in Europe, you know how the climate in the EU has changed since. We wont see any member nation proclaim war. Not going to speak for the U.S., Asia, Africa or the Middle East, but Europe's warring days are probably over.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
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integration and assimilation go in the opposite direction of multiculturailsm.
Immigrants making an effort to fit in and live normal lives are already successfully doing this.
Not much will change.

You wont have to worry about that. China and Russia have no military interest in Europe. I think the age of World Wars is over, at least in the vicinity of Europe, globalization put a stop to that. There is nothing to be gained for Russia or China by invading Europe. Europe is not a military aggressor.

If you know about earlier conflicts (WWI and WWII) in Europe, you know how the climate in the EU has changed since. We wont see any member nation proclaim war. Not going to speak for the U.S., Asia, Africa or the Middle East, but Europe's warring days are probably over.
This.
After the 2 world wars, which are strongly linked, Europe completely changed ideology.
No more imperialism and colonial conflicts, and collaboration before competitiveness.
With the creation of the first European international communities, French and Germany could use each other's steel and carbon freely.
Protectionism and various shit that hurts other countries have been reduced.
Now it's more about contributing to everyone's good instead of doing what is good for you even if it damages your neighbours.
After the fall of the CCCP there is no risk of war anymore.

With globalization and international capitalism, invading a non-aggressive bunch of countries like europe doesn't give you any advantage.

US, Russia, China, India and the middle-eastern scenario are different though.
For now the US are the dominating superpower, but as you have seen during the Cold war, if there are 2 equal superpowers, it's easy to have conflicts.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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We cared in WW2 and, as mentioned above, in the 1990s. The US and the rest of the world understand that it is not wise to let Europe go unchecked in its genocidal tendencies. Look at what Europe did to most of the world - so many problems can be traced to European colonialism, which regularly involved genocide. If you allow Europe to do whatever it wants, you will suffer down the line.
Perhaps it escaped your notice that it was also Europeans (in conjunction with America and the British Commonwealth nations) who fought and died to prevent other Europeans from committing those atrocities in World War II.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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I love how the mind of the liberal equates national unity and pride in your culture as genocide. They will champion multiculturalism right up till their demise of that which they champion. The mind of a liberal, it's how they think, it's who they are.

Illegals coming here and not integrating/assimilating? The liberal loves it.
Immigrants moving in other countries and supplanting that countries heritage and culture? The liberal loves it.
Loving your country and it's culture? The liberal hates it and calls you racist bigot.

Read the responses in this thread to see the liberal mind in action. These people can vote. Remember that.
 
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May 11, 2008
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FWIW:

Dutch court acquits anti-Islam lawmaker

AMSTERDAM – A Dutch court acquitted populist politician Geert Wilders of hate speech and discrimination Thursday, ruling that his anti-Islam statements, while offensive to many Muslims, fell within the bounds of legitimate political debate. Presiding judge Marcel van Oosten said Wilders' claims that Islam is violent by nature, and his calls to halt Muslim immigration and ban the Muslim holy book, the Quran, must be seen in a wider context of debate over immigration policy.
The court said his public statements could not be directly linked to increased discrimination against Dutch Muslims.
Wilders sat stone-faced while the judge read the ruling, but smiled broadly and shook hands with his lawyers after the verdict was announced. He waved to cheering supporters who hugged each other in the public gallery, and grinned as he left the courtroom.
.....

Indeed it is. You know what the end result is because of Geert Wilders ?
At least a part of non Muslims start to find out about the history behind the Islam. History will reveal a lot. Because the politicians in the past did not do their job, this man could rise. Now with a little bit of luck, people can start to have dialogs more easy. Of course not with groups such as the Taliban. That is the same as burning schoolbooks and keeping people dumb deliberately. To keep people under control. That is of no use.
 
Aug 14, 2001
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Perhaps it escaped your notice that it was also Europeans (in conjunction with America and the British Commonwealth nations) who fought and died to prevent other Europeans from committing those atrocities in World War II.

Nope, I know that there are always outliers.
 
May 11, 2008
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In that case please accept my apologies. I only used such combative terms because I understood your post to say you read the article (or at least skimmed it) and then dismissed it as psychobabble (which I also have no patience for). When you get around to looking at it you can actually skip the first four paragraphs.

Ok. I finally got around to reading and understand what you are trying to write.
It is a nice and interesting article but there are some comments i have.
The following texts are my humble Opinions :

The writer of the article clearly states that although different languages describe certain situations differently with respect to sexes or past,future or present, this does not limit the ability of any person to limit them to the constraints of the language. For example : If i would tell in English to you that i spend time with my neighbor last evening, you are going to ask what we did if you are interested. Since i am decent and i have nothing to hide, i would explain what we did. From that explanation you can deduce what the sex is of the neighbor. But only from the following explanation you would know what had happened that evening. In Dutch, French or German ( I think in most Latin derived languages, Germanic languages and languages under Latin influences but i am not entirely sure about this), you would know if i told you that i spend time with my neighbor it is a man or a woman. If you are interested you are going to ask what we did. Since i am decent and i have nothing to hide, i will explain this to you. The reason why i point this out so strong is that the the following explanation reveals what has occurred. Thus in 4 different languages, the same result will occur. The following explanation reveals what has occurred.

Again it is me who explains it and it is not the language that is the limiting factor. It is the listener who has a prejudice about me that will assume a female or a male neighbor. This explains more about the lister then about me. It is the driving force of our thoughts and also our greatest weakness. Prejudice. It has a bad vibe to it but it does not have to be. You need to have to start from something. Thus you can use a positive form of prejudice and be a healthy positive paranoid. Or you can use a negative form of prejudice and be a unhealthy negative paranoid. Having a negative prejudice is much easier then to have a positive prejudice. Because with a negative prejudice, you can just rely on instincts. With a positive prejudice, you need to constantly be present as a layer in between your instinctive reactions and the emotions and thoughts your brain will form. You are shaping your thoughts and toning down the strength of instinctive behavior with this. Everybody has a prejudice. It comes from our most basal instinctive behavior to be cautious about everything that is different or unknown from what we have learned so far. It is about using the prejudice and controlling the window of interest in your mind. That is something people should learn more often. Because then it is also easier to learn.

To return to the article :
The next example is that the Chinese do not know past future or present differences in the language. Thus i can safely assume if i ask what a Chinese person did yesterday in Chinese, the constructed sentence will reveal that i asked what the Chinese person did yesterday. It is not limiting as long as the language allow for the words to be arranged or select words to describe the situation.
The next is about the gender of words. There is the male gender, the female gender or no gender at all for words in Dutch. Why is this done ? It is how speech evolves. Once in a while there is a clean up but that is it for as far as i know in dutch history.

For example : I do not like the bed, it is too soft. I could also say : I do not like the bed. The bed is too soft. This does seem to be more obvious. But it makes a conversation less pleasant when i say this : "The bed looks very nice. The bed has a shape i like. I am going to lay down on the bed and try it out. Too bad. The bed is too soft. I really like the bed. Perhaps if the bed has another mattress i will like the bed because then the bed is not too soft.
"

There is nothing wrong with this text. But people would think i have some issues because i mention "the bed" so often. Again prejudice comes to mind here. But when somebody speaks in this way it is tiring (at least it would be for me). Better would be : " I like it, it has a great shape, but i am not going to buy it because the mattress of the bed is too soft. "

Many examples are given, but every time it is the prejudice of the test subject that determines the outcome. For example, i am an image thinker. When for example you mention a bridge, i see a bridge in my mind, i think of physics and mathematics. I can more or less predict where the spots are where the heaviest load is carried. I do this by overlaying a picture where for example Red is a very heavy load and yellow is a light load. I do this by using the prejudice mechanism of my brain. Instead of not using it, i use the speed of prejudice governed instincts. I am sure that a lot of people do this the same but have different interests. For me the structural integrity is the first thing that pops up in my mind when i look at a bridge. I do not associate it with a male or a female. If i shift the window of interest to for example female, somewhere in my brain a group of neurons would start to signal that for example the bridge has two arches and that reminds of two wonderfully shaped breasts or a wonderfully shaped bottom. But again only if i wish it to be. Thus although i have different interests, i can shift my "window of interest" to subjects that i normally would not care about(constantly). Am i special ? No, not at all. Most people do this from the moment of being able to grasp the world around them. Others need more time and determination or help to do this. But everybody can do it.

The next example is about giving directions and i like it a lot because it explains what i mean about prejudice and having a certain mindset all the time in this special case from infancy on :
The egocentric system of giving directions. It is used more often than the geocentric system because if i would say at the traffic light go right, it is a relative form of giving directions. This is more handy because now you only need to know your own location relative to the traffic light. If i would have told you to go north at the traffic, you would first have to determine where north is. The geocentric system is an absolute system. Thus the egocentric system is more easier to use and not because of the language. The example of the Aboriginal is about that he is using words as east, south, north, west, for a relative positioning system based on the fact that someone has stated that a certain direction is north. This does not mean he is constantly aware of the north pole of the earth. If he is, then that is something he does consciously and has nothing to do with his language being the cause, the language just describes the way he thinks (and learned from his ancestors) and not the other way around. When looking at history, i can clearly see that the language follows the events in history.

This explains a lot.
In order to speak a language like Guugu Yimithirr, you need to know where the cardinal directions are at each and every moment of your waking life. You need to have a compass in your mind that operates all the time, day and night, without lunch breaks or weekends off, since otherwise you would not be able to impart the most basic information or understand what people around you are saying. Indeed, speakers of geographic languages seem to have an almost-superhuman sense of orientation. Regardless of visibility conditions, regardless of whether they are in thick forest or on an open plain, whether outside or indoors or even in caves, whether stationary or moving, they have a spot-on sense of direction. They don’t look at the sun and pause for a moment of calculation before they say, “There’s an ant just north of your foot.” They simply feel where north, south, west and east are, just as people with perfect pitch feel what each note is without having to calculate intervals. There is a wealth of stories about what to us may seem like incredible feats of orientation but for speakers of geographic languages are just a matter of course. One report relates how a speaker of Tzeltal from southern Mexico was blindfolded and spun around more than 20 times in a darkened house. Still blindfolded and dizzy, he pointed without hesitation at the geographic directions.

This is also a very nice example :
Again, if someone would say : "the last time i checked i had 2 wives".
You could seek something behind it. He is just taking into account that he cannot be absolutely certain about anything he is not keeping track of constantly. This reminds of Heisenberg by the way. It also gave a forced update of my environment. I have to look at my eggs that i have cooked for my upcoming dinner. :)

In coming years, researchers may also be able to shed light on the impact of language on more subtle areas of perception. For instance, some languages, like Matses in Peru, oblige their speakers, like the finickiest of lawyers, to specify exactly how they came to know about the facts they are reporting. You cannot simply say, as in English, “An animal passed here.” You have to specify, using a different verbal form, whether this was directly experienced (you saw the animal passing), inferred (you saw footprints), conjectured (animals generally pass there that time of day), hearsay or such. If a statement is reported with the incorrect “evidentiality,” it is considered a lie. So if, for instance, you ask a Matses man how many wives he has, unless he can actually see his wives at that very moment, he would have to answer in the past tense and would say something like “There were two last time I checked.” After all, given that the wives are not present, he cannot be absolutely certain that one of them hasn’t died or run off with another man since he last saw them, even if this was only five minutes ago. So he cannot report it as a certain fact in the present tense. Does the need to think constantly about epistemology in such a careful and sophisticated manner inform the speakers’ outlook on life or their sense of truth and causation? When our experimental tools are less blunt, such questions will be amenable to empirical study.


For many years, our mother tongue was claimed to be a “prison house” that constrained our capacity to reason. Once it turned out that there was no evidence for such claims, this was taken as proof that people of all cultures think in fundamentally the same way. But surely it is a mistake to overestimate the importance of abstract reasoning in our lives. After all, how many daily decisions do we make on the basis of deductive logic compared with those guided by gut feeling, intuition, emotions, impulse or practical skills? The habits of mind that our culture has instilled in us from infancy shape our orientation to the world and our emotional responses to the objects we encounter, and their consequences probably go far beyond what has been experimentally demonstrated so far; they may also have a marked impact on our beliefs, values and ideologies. We may not know as yet how to measure these consequences directly or how to assess their contribution to cultural or political misunderstandings. But as a first step toward understanding one another, we can do better than pretending we all think the same.

The basic prejudice system of your brain is more important than language. It can be trained to think in a certain way that your "window of interest" follows a list of priorities. In abstract essence explaining it in computer terms, you could say that your window of interest is similar as when using a search algorithm where the search query is your window of interest while the search algorithm is traversing through the array of data in memory to seek for matching or closely matching data. It is the matching of data that is the challenge. Does it need a perfect match ? Can it be a bit of ?

For example : By how much in values between 0 and 1000.0000.000. Where 0 is no match at all and 1000.000.000 is a perfect match ? This matching algorithm in essence determines how creative a person is. Because when you vary it, you get the results as when seeing kids playing. Then you can use solid logic to redefine the matching criteria for feedback purposes and self correction. For example :If everything is a perfect match, you are probably going to be locked up for insanity. If nothing ever matches, you are going to need help as well because on average to you everything sucks and is of no use. Fuzzy logic and the human mind. Knowing when to switch from fuzzy mode to exact match mode.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Nope, I know that there are always outliers.
If there are more outliers than matching points, there are no outliers. Axis forces were very much in the minority in World War II; thus the loss, even though they were clearly superior man-for-man and unit-for-unit throughout most of the war.

Ok. I finally got around to reading and understand what you are trying to write.
It is a nice and interesting article but there are some comments i have.
The following texts are my humble Opinions :

SNIP
Very interesting, thanks!