The Derek Chauvin / George Floyd Trial

[darkswordsman17]

What the joke this is watching so-called freedom-loving small govt conservatives rationalize why the govt should be able to extrajudicially murder citizens on the streets, and desperately hoping the govt agents who clearly abused their powers get away with it even though the world watched it on video. Just a fucking joke.

There's a strain of Libertarian that seems to be entirely about them not being held accountable for being racist.

 

[BoomerD]

I was thinking the exact opposite. I don't see how the jury could come back with anything less than a manslaughter conviction. The M.E. testified that Floyd died from asphyxiation. Regardless of what other conditions he had, or drugs that he was taking, the cop choked him to death. That simply can't go unpunished.

Yep...pretty much how I see it too. Did Chauvin intend to kill Floyd? I doubt it...did it happen? Yes.
manslaughter seems appropriate.

Unfortunately, in the current climate in the country, Chauvin's defense could produce a valid, time-stamped video of him enjoying a Mai-Tai while laying on the beach on Maui when this happened...and the jury will still vote to convict...just because I believe they're afraid of the rioting if they don't. (remember the Rodney King trial?)

 

[HomerJS]

Yep...pretty much how I see it too. Did Chauvin intend to kill Floyd? I doubt it...did it happen? Yes.
manslaughter seems appropriate.

Unfortunately, in the current climate in the country, Chauvin's defense could produce a valid, time-stamped video of him enjoying a Mai-Tai while laying on the beach on Maui when this happened...and the jury will still vote to convict...just because I believe they're afraid of the rioting if they don't. (remember the Rodney King trial?)

If I held someone underwater for over 9 minutes it would he hard for me to argue I didn't intend to kill them. Intent doesn't require advance planning. It can occur at any part of the act.

How is it Chauvin was the only one on the scene who was unaware he was kneeling on Floyd too long? Layman through professionals knew it. That includes one of the cops holding him who asked Chauvin to change Floyd's position.

 

[fleshconsumed]

Yep...pretty much how I see it too. Did Chauvin intend to kill Floyd? I doubt it...did it happen? Yes.
manslaughter seems appropriate.

Unfortunately, in the current climate in the country, Chauvin's defense could produce a valid, time-stamped video of him enjoying a Mai-Tai while laying on the beach on Maui when this happened...and the jury will still vote to convict...just because I believe they're afraid of the rioting if they don't. (remember the Rodney King trial?)

There is manslaughter and then there is manslaughter. If a construction worker drops a wrench that kills someone down below that's a manslaughter. If said construction worker is told he's dropping wrenches that could kill someone down below and he does nothing to address it, and just keeps dropping wrenches and construction debris despite repeated warnings that eventually kills someone... Well, in my book that is no different than murder.

In my opinion the gross negligence for human life displayed by Derek Chauvin makes it no different than murder. He was on George Floyd's neck for 9 minutes, he was told George Floyd can't breathe, he was asked by the bystanders to relent, he was told by fellow officers that George Floyd was unresponsive and needs medical attention, he had cops called on him for fucks sake. Derek Chauvin actions are no different than murder and I hope the jury comes to the same conclusion.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yep...pretty much how I see it too. Did Chauvin intend to kill Floyd? I doubt it...did it happen? Yes.
manslaughter seems appropriate.

Unfortunately, in the current climate in the country, Chauvin's defense could produce a valid, time-stamped video of him enjoying a Mai-Tai while laying on the beach on Maui when this happened...and the jury will still vote to convict...just because I believe they're afraid of the rioting if they don't. (remember the Rodney King trial?)

Yeh, well, the prosecution presented a video of Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck long enough to kill him, supported by testimony from bystanders & a foremost pulmonologist. He didn't give a fuck whether he killed Floyd or not. Failure to convict Chauvin would be a gross miscarriage of justice. Of course residents would take to the streets were that to happen.

 

[HumblePie]

Lol this means you can’t even find a you tube video that tells you what you want to hear bigot.

HAHA, you are literally one of the only bigots here. I already pointed a channel talking about this case daily from a criminal defense attorney earlier. There are plenty of others from both the left and right. The general consensus I am seeing from almost every lawyer talking about this case is that it isn't going well for the prosecution. Too many of their own witnesses are contradicting each other and Nelson on cross examination is doing an excellent job of getting the witnesses from going from "It can only go this way!" to "well yes that could have happened and it could have gone that way." Nelson has done that with every single witness and that is usually very good for the defense. It was also telling that the coroner basically poo-pood Tobin's testimony saying that it was straight up a heart issue and that there has never been a case he has seen or those in his profession have seen where a person was choked out from behind the neck.

 

[HumblePie]

There is manslaughter and then there is manslaughter. If a construction worker drops a wrench that kills someone down below that's a manslaughter. If said construction worker is told he's dropping wrenches that could kill someone down below and he does nothing to address it, and just keeps dropping wrenches and construction debris despite repeated warnings that eventually kills someone... Well, in my book that is no different than murder.

In my opinion the gross negligence for human life displayed by Derek Chauvin makes it no different than murder. He was on George Floyd's neck for 9 minutes, he was told George Floyd can't breathe, he was asked by the bystanders to relent, he was told by fellow officers that George Floyd was unresponsive and needs medical attention, he had cops called on him for fucks sake. Derek Chauvin actions are no different than murder and I hope the jury comes to the same conclusion.

The issue with manslaughter, is that is going to be very hard to prove on a police officer. Let me put it in perspective. The coroner basically stated that his findings are that George's death was a death a result from heart failure. So are we going to have cops held responsible when people have heart issues and die while being subdued for custody? The cops can't know that at the time. In the past, immunity is given to cops for this specific reason. Otherwise no one would ever want to be a police officer if their mere presence could be linked to the death of a suspect and they are in jail for it. Trust me, people have had heart attacks at the mere sight of a cop coming to arrest them without the cops actually touching them. We already have legal precedent protecting officers in those situations and I don't see manslaughter ever sticking. The only chance the prosecution has to get Chauvin in prison is off a higher murder charge, but then they have to prove Chauvin was trying to kill George. They haven't even come close to that at all. We already had a witness for the prosecution state that Chauvin literally could have come on scene and pulled out a taser and gone much harder on George. He was hinting Chauvin could have started shooting from the beginning since it was a category 1 call and George was already kicking and fighting back with the initial rookie officers. The fact that the prosecutions own witness said that Chauvin trying to work with George and respond to his request to be put on the ground shows he was trying to deescalate. A witness for the prosecution stating that Chauvin was trying to deescalate the scenario isn't good for the prosecution in their case for murder charges.

Another thing to note is that the prosecution has moved away from saying knee on the neck to knee on the shoulders. This is because the additional body cam footage from the other police there show the kneed was placed on the shoulders and top of the back/nape of the neck area. That was what Nelson showed to the chief as well when he got the chief to confirm it when asked about camera perspective bias. The other officer witnesses shown the same footage also said the same thing. Also pointing out that the pulse was able to be taken without Chauvin moving his knee from a medical person when they arrived later on scene.

 

[fskimospy]

The issue with manslaughter, is that is going to be very hard to prove on a police officer. Let me put it in perspective. The coroner basically stated that his findings are that George's death was a death a result from heart failure. So are we going to have cops held responsible when people have heart issues and die while being subdued for custody? The cops can't know that at the time. In the past, immunity is given to cops for this specific reason. Otherwise no one would ever want to be a police officer if their mere presence could be linked to the death of a suspect and they are in jail for it. Trust me, people have had heart attacks at the mere sight of a cop coming to arrest them without the cops actually touching them. We already have legal precedent protecting officers in those situations and I don't see manslaughter ever sticking. The only chance the prosecution has to get Chauvin in prison is off a higher murder charge, but then they have to prove Chauvin was trying to kill George. They haven't even come close to that at all. We already had a witness for the prosecution state that Chauvin literally could have come on scene and pulled out a taser and gone much harder on George. He was hinting Chauvin could have started shooting from the beginning since it was a category 1 call and George was already kicking and fighting back with the initial rookie officers. The fact that the prosecutions own witness said that Chauvin trying to work with George and respond to his request to be put on the ground shows he was trying to deescalate. A witness for the prosecution stating that Chauvin was trying to deescalate the scenario isn't good for the prosecution in their case for murder charges.

Another thing to note is that the prosecution has moved away from saying knee on the neck to knee on the shoulders. This is because the additional body cam footage from the other police there show the kneed was placed on the shoulders and top of the back/nape of the neck area. That was what Nelson showed to the chief as well when he got the chief to confirm it when asked about camera perspective bias. The other officer witnesses shown the same footage also said the same thing. Also pointing out that the pulse was able to be taken without Chauvin moving his knee from a medical person when they arrived later on scene.

This is false, as the coroner directly testified to. He was asked point blank how he would classify this death and he said he would classify it as a homicide, meaning Chauvin was the principal cause of death.

 

[fskimospy]

My take from reading this week’s highlights is that Chauvin is in deep shit. The witness testimony established that Chauvin caused Floyd’s death, and that he did so in violation of police procedures.

While it’s always hard to convict cops, I find it unlikely Chauvin goes free, and rightly so. The man deserves prison, and already far too many police get away with crimes.

 

[fskimospy]

Yeh, well, the prosecution presented a video of Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck long enough to kill him, supported by testimony from bystanders & a foremost pulmonologist. He didn't give a fuck whether he killed Floyd or not. Failure to convict Chauvin would be a gross miscarriage of justice. Of course residents would take to the streets were that to happen.

Also, intent is frequently misunderstood. It is actually totally irrelevant if a Chauvin intended to kill Floyd or not. What is relevant is if he intended to undertake the ACT that caused Floyd’s death and if a reasonable person would believe that undertaking such an act could lead to someone’s death.

 

[fleshconsumed]

The issue with manslaughter, is that is going to be very hard to prove on a police officer. Let me put it in perspective. The coroner basically stated that his findings are that George's death was a death a result from heart failure. So are we going to have cops held responsible when people have heart issues and die while being subdued for custody? The cops can't know that at the time. In the past, immunity is given to cops for this specific reason. Otherwise no one would ever want to be a police officer if their mere presence could be linked to the death of a suspect and they are in jail for it. Trust me, people have had heart attacks at the mere sight of a cop coming to arrest them without the cops actually touching them. We already have legal precedent protecting officers in those situations and I don't see manslaughter ever sticking. The only chance the prosecution has to get Chauvin in prison is off a higher murder charge, but then they have to prove Chauvin was trying to kill George. They haven't even come close to that at all. We already had a witness for the prosecution state that Chauvin literally could have come on scene and pulled out a taser and gone much harder on George. He was hinting Chauvin could have started shooting from the beginning since it was a category 1 call and George was already kicking and fighting back with the initial rookie officers. The fact that the prosecutions own witness said that Chauvin trying to work with George and respond to his request to be put on the ground shows he was trying to deescalate. A witness for the prosecution stating that Chauvin was trying to deescalate the scenario isn't good for the prosecution in their case for murder charges.

Another thing to note is that the prosecution has moved away from saying knee on the neck to knee on the shoulders. This is because the additional body cam footage from the other police there show the kneed was placed on the shoulders and top of the back/nape of the neck area. That was what Nelson showed to the chief as well when he got the chief to confirm it when asked about camera perspective bias. The other officer witnesses shown the same footage also said the same thing. Also pointing out that the pulse was able to be taken without Chauvin moving his knee from a medical person when they arrived later on scene.

George Floyd was handcuffed on the ground. Once the subject is subdued and in police custody his wellbeing is police's responsibility. Just like when you send kids to school, the school is responsible for your children's wellbeing. It doesn't mean that your children will be 100% safe, no they won't, accidents will happen, there will be bloody noses and broken arms/legs. However, it is reasonable expectation that school staff will take care of your child and tend to their needs. Once George Floyd was handcuffed and on the ground his wellbeing became Minneapolis PD responsibility, however, instead of keeping him safe Derek Chauvin gross negligence and disrespect towards human life caused the death of George Floyd. Nobody is going to send cops to jail so long as they make reasonable attempt to avoid unnecessary injury and death, but this is not what happened here.

 

[HumblePie]

Also, intent is frequently misunderstood. It is actually totally irrelevant if a Chauvin intended to kill Floyd or not. What is relevant is if he intended to undertake the ACT that caused Floyd’s death and if a reasonable person would believe that undertaking such an act could lead to someone’s death.

You have that wrong. With second degree you have to have malice or a depraved mindset (although depraved also counts for 3rd degree murder but necessarily malice). It may not have been pre-meditated, but it has to be once you started you wanted that outcome.

Minnesota Second-Degree Murder

An overview of Minnesota's second-degree murder laws, including potential penalties.

statelaws.findlaw.com

Sec. 609.19 MN Statutes

 

[HumblePie]

George Floyd was handcuffed on the ground. Once the subject is subdued and in police custody his wellbeing is police's responsibility. Just like when you send kids to school, the school is responsible for your children's wellbeing. It doesn't mean that your children will be 100% safe, no they won't, accidents will happen, there will be bloody noses and broken arms/legs. However, it is reasonable expectation that school staff will take care of your child and tend to their needs. Once George Floyd was handcuffed and on the ground his wellbeing became Minneapolis PD responsibility, however, instead of keeping him safe Derek Chauvin gross negligence and disrespect towards human life caused the death of George Floyd. Nobody is going to send cops to jail so long as they make reasonable attempt to avoid unnecessary injury and death, but this is not what happened here.

This is what the defense is showing. That George was resisting the entire time. He was kicking, thrashing, and physically resisting being arrested even after being handcuffed. On-lookers were also threatening the officers the entire time and there was a sizeable hostile crowd. The later makes a huge difference. The police have a duty to protect themselves first. That has been held up numerous times in many court cases. Police can protect themselves before they look to protect others. George and the crowd were all creating an on going threat the entire time. That is part of the defenses case as well. The cops are trained not to protect themselves, the scene, and then innocent bystanders in that order. Then if all that is good then they can look to the the wellfare of others.

 

[fskimospy]

You have that wrong. With second degree you have to have malice or a depraved mindset (although depraved also counts for 3rd degree murder but necessarily malice). It may not have been pre-meditated, but it has to be once you started you wanted that outcome.

Minnesota Second-Degree Murder

An overview of Minnesota's second-degree murder laws, including potential penalties.

statelaws.findlaw.com

Sec. 609.19 MN Statutes

So in other words, I have it right. Thanks.

 

[HumblePie]

This is false, as the coroner directly testified to. He was asked point blank how he would classify this death and he said he would classify it as a homicide, meaning Chauvin was the principal cause of death.

No, you heard it wrong. When asked what it meant by homicide, it meant that a death occurred and there were human actions involved during the death. It doesn't mean there was a direct or even indirect causation by any specific human to have a death be classified as a homicide. As I said, if you die from a heart attack during Halloween because someone yells "BOO" at someone else across the street from you but people think it may have scared you to death then it is still a homicide. There was a human action and a death occurred. The coroner said there was a struggle, and that George had a heart attack. That the mere act of the officers being there to arrest him was going to release stress hormones and such stress hormones are likely to cause a heart attack considering his heart. That was his testimony. The coroner never said once that Chauvin caused the death. When Nelson specifically asked if the pressure on the back of the neck could have strangled George he literally said no.

 

[HumblePie]

So in other words, I have it right. Thanks.

No. You have it wrong. Intention means just that for second degree. That Chauvin has to want to have the outcome be a death. Not that he didn't intend for death but knew the actions would result in death. That is manslaughter. You have it wrong.

You are confusing the second application that can be used for 2nd degree murder. That is unintended death resulting from an intentional felony crime like assault. That is basically felony murder. The prosecution has to prove that Chauvin's actions were criminal assault under the law. Something they haven't even attempted to do so far. Again, to get 2nd degree murder, they have to prove either Chauvin intended to murder George at the scene or that Chauvin was committing felony assault at the time. They have done neither so far. In fact, most of their police use of force witnesses have countered any possible assault issue by stating his actions were a de-escalation of the scenario.

 

[fskimospy]

No. You have it wrong. Intention means just that for second degree. That Chauvin has to want to have the outcome be a death. Not that he didn't intend for death but knew the actions would result in death. That is manslaughter. You have it wrong.

Can you be convicted of murder in Minnesota without having the intent to kill someone, yes or no?

 

[HumblePie]

Can you be convicted of murder in Minnesota without having the intent to kill someone, yes or no?

That is not what you said, you said "intent is frequently misunderstood" which implies that intent isn't intent.

For 2nd degree it is either intentional murder, or what is known as felony murder.

 

[Jhhnn]

You have that wrong. With second degree you have to have malice or a depraved mindset (although depraved also counts for 3rd degree murder but necessarily malice). It may not have been pre-meditated, but it has to be once you started you wanted that outcome.

Minnesota Second-Degree Murder

An overview of Minnesota's second-degree murder laws, including potential penalties.

statelaws.findlaw.com

Sec. 609.19 MN Statutes

"Depraved mindset" seems to cover the situation entirely. It's perfectly obvious that Chauvin's behavior was entirely excessive resulting in Floyd's death. As a trained & experienced police officer, he knew better but was too busy being the HMFIC to care.

 

[HumblePie]

"Depraved mindset" seems to cover the situation entirely. It's perfectly obvious that Chauvin's behavior was entirely excessive resulting in Floyd's death. As a trained & experienced police officer, he knew better but was too busy being the HMFIC to care.

Depraved mindset has to be proven by the prosecution. Your feelings on watching from one camera perspective doesn't come near to meeting that definition. The prosecution as I said has not even attempted that line of attack for their prosecution. As I said, they have done a pretty terrible job of proving their case for any charge thus far.

 

[fskimospy]

No, you heard it wrong. When asked what it meant by homicide, it meant that a death occurred and there were human actions involved during the death. It doesn't mean there was a direct or even indirect causation by any specific human to have a death be classified as a homicide. As I said, if you die from a heart attack during Halloween because someone yells "BOO" at someone else across the street from you but people think it may have scared you to death then it is still a homicide. There was a human action and a death occurred. The coroner said there was a struggle, and that George had a heart attack. That the mere act of the officers being there to arrest him was going to release stress hormones and such stress hormones are likely to cause a heart attack considering his heart. That was his testimony. The coroner never said once that Chauvin caused the death. When Nelson specifically asked if the pressure on the back of the neck could have strangled George he literally said no.

No. The definition of homicide is a death caused by the actions of another human. If there was no direct or indirect causation of death by a human by definition it is not homicide.

 

[fskimospy]

That is not what you said, you said "intent is frequently misunderstood" which implies that intent isn't intent.

For 2nd degree it is either intentional murder, or what is known as felony murder.

Can you be convicted of murder in Minnesota without having the intent to kill, yes or no? (Yes)

Second question, can you be convicted of murder in Minnesota without having the intent to commit the act that led to someone’s death? (No.)

You should really get a refund for your fake law degree. Lol.

 

[Jhhnn]

Depraved mindset has to be proven by the prosecution. Your feelings on watching from one camera perspective doesn't come near to meeting that definition. The prosecution as I said has not even attempted that line of attack for their prosecution. As I said, they have done a pretty terrible job of proving their case for any charge thus far.

And yet the arguments of Chauvin's attorney are repudiated by senior department officers, including the Chief-

'The lessons of this moment.' The testimony by police brass at Derek Chauvin's trial is unprecedented | CNN

The piercing of the so-called blue wall of silence in Derek Chauvin's trial for the death of George Floyd has been widely praised. The question is whether any momentum built by this potentially devastating testimony portends real change in US policing.

www.cnn.com

 

[brycejones]

And yet the arguments of Chauvin's attorney are repudiated by senior department officers, including the Chief-

'The lessons of this moment.' The testimony by police brass at Derek Chauvin's trial is unprecedented | CNN

The piercing of the so-called blue wall of silence in Derek Chauvin's trial for the death of George Floyd has been widely praised. The question is whether any momentum built by this potentially devastating testimony portends real change in US policing.

www.cnn.com

They are just hanging a good cop out to dry in the name of political correctness and lying to the jury.

- I have no doubt there are people making this argument to discredit their testimony.

 

[HumblePie]

And yet the arguments of Chauvin's attorney are repudiated by senior department officers, including the Chief-

'The lessons of this moment.' The testimony by police brass at Derek Chauvin's trial is unprecedented | CNN

The piercing of the so-called blue wall of silence in Derek Chauvin's trial for the death of George Floyd has been widely praised. The question is whether any momentum built by this potentially devastating testimony portends real change in US policing.

www.cnn.com

You missed the whole cross examine? Here is some paraphrasing of what occurred. The prosecution is basically asking, "Is is against policy to place a knee on the neck when there is no threat?" The cops all say, "Yes!" and rightly so. The defense goes, "That doesn't mean you can't when there is a threat right?" and the cops all say "Yes!" again and rightly so. Then the prosecution asks "Does this video look like it is being done correctly in this narrow slice of the scenario?" The cops all respond "That is not correct." The defense goes, "But here is the additional video on the restraint. Does this look like a knee on the neck causing strangulation or does this look like a knee on the shoulders which is taunt as a correct restraint?" To which all the cop witnesses said, "Yep, that looks like the knee is on the shoulders and not the neck."

The chief is out there playing politics with his answers. The prosecution is trying to narrow down the scope of this whole thing to it being only that Chauvin had his knee the entire time on the neck in a place that could cause strangulation to choke George to death. That is the entire case the prosecution has. The defense is broadening the scenario back out from what the prosecution is trying to narrow it down to. The defense is trying to show that the knee wasn't on the neck in a way that could strangle anyone, that there was an ongoing threat from George and the crowd, that the death was caused by a heart attack and not hypoxia, and that the drugs were factoring into both the heart attack and any elevated CO2 levels found in the blood stream as well as George's behavior. The prosecution has not proven that the knee on the neck caused strangulation to George. They have not proven that Chauvin was committing an assault nor even breaking department policy in use of force. The cross examine as basically eviscerated all their points so far. The best testimony to date the prosecution has is from Tobin being adamant, even under cross examine, that in his opinion the death was only from the factor of the knee. He was the only witness that didn't walk back their testimony on cross so far. The issue is the coroner that examined the body, and not Tobin, basically is in complete contradiction with Tobin. Since both are the states witnesses being used to prove their case, it doesn't look good for the prosecution when the testimony of their witnesses are at complete odds with each other.