The cost of homeless people.

[K1052]

I'm not that tuned into the Bay Area. But people comparing it's density to Manhattan aren't taking about adding low density/low rise apartments only along major roads.

Um yeah. This was the basis for the opposition to the affordable housing density bonus plan that got proposed in SF a while back. The program would have allowed a 2 floor height bonus along certain corridors and unit density bumps if 30% of the development was affordable. Under that pressure the city eventually passed a much more restrictive version of the plan that effectively hobbled it which means less housing gets built from (which was the opposition's goal).

For the purposes of illustration SF planning did this to show what that actually would look like and it's not exactly midtown Manhattan.

 

[mizzou]

from my perspective, the homeless people that are actually a problem to society is a small percentage. These are the people who are frequently in jail, short term involuntary mental health visits, and poop in your garden shed.

Fix those problems and then it will open the door to homeless with addiction issues, health issues, and other treatable problems

 

[whm1974]

from my perspective, the homeless people that are actually a problem to society is a small percentage. These are the people who are frequently in jail, short term involuntary mental health visits, and poop in your garden shed.

Fix those problems and then it will open the door to homeless with addiction issues, health issues, and other treatable problems

Yes we should set up long term facilities for those homeless who can't take care of themselves for the first and more suitable ones for those who just need help with the second.

 

[paperfist]

Yes and it failed. Big tech businesses did not want to pay a head tax. The Seattle council/commission got in trouble for private meetings.

What I don't get is there's already tax payer programs in place to help people with no jobs, housings, etc. Why does there need to be additional taxes to create solutions to problems that are already 'fixed'? It seems like homeless people are choosing to be homeless if they aren't participating in these already existing programs.

 

[Jhhnn]

What I don't get is there's already tax payer programs in place to help people with no jobs, housings, etc. Why does there need to be additional taxes to create solutions to problems that are already 'fixed'? It seems like homeless people are choosing to be homeless if they aren't participating in these already existing programs.

Nobody claims it's fixed except for people who want to ignore it.

 

[whm1974]

What I don't get is there's already tax payer programs in place to help people with no jobs, housings, etc. Why does there need to be additional taxes to create solutions to problems that are already 'fixed'? It seems like homeless people are choosing to be homeless if they aren't participating in these already existing programs.

A lot of them, especially the newly homeless are not aware of these programs to begin with. The other is that many of them have homeless for long that given in to dispare.

 

[killster1]

Do you people really think its the poor that are homeless? nope a poor family will go live with another poor family and have 20 people in a house. but a sex offender / mentally ill person and or drug user would rather live on the streets to do as they wish. Im sure we are not talking about people that just live somewhere besides a house and go work their job and return to live in their car, we are talking about people that have greater issues than 4 walls around them.

So funny people saying to build them a house!

Go try and ask homeless people to work for some food / money see what they say. IF they had a job and where homeless then they would not even be recognized on the streets its the ones with giant carts of trash yelling and fighting that everyone notices.

 

[whm1974]

Do you people really think its the poor that are homeless? nope a poor family will go live with another poor family and have 20 people in a house. but a sex offender / mentally ill person and or drug user would rather live on the streets to do as they wish. Im sure we are not talking about people that just live somewhere besides a house and go work their job and return to live in their car, we are talking about people that have greater issues than 4 walls around them.

So funny people saying to build them a house!

Go try and ask homeless people to work for some food / money see what they say. IF they had a job and where homeless then they would not even be recognized on the streets its the ones with giant carts of trash yelling and fighting that everyone notices.

A lot of poor people are one or two paychecks away from living on the streets. And keep in mind that is very easy to end up as a sex offender, much easier then you think.

 

[mizzou]

Part of the issue is the definition of "homeless". If we are only talking about someone who is schizophrenic that smokes meth, has hepatitis, and steals/fights, then there probably needs to be a more narrow term used. For purposes of my thought, let's call him Charles. I don't think anyone is concerned about people other then Charles that simply lossed their house due to bankruptcy, a fire, or some other temporary tragedy. What people don't want is a giant building filled with several Charles's right next to them because they aren't being compassionate enough.

Long policies letting people like Charles congregate in large amounts is not Charles fault, it's the fault of the state that let it become a problem. I'm sure if you ask the homeless people in San Francisco where they come from, I would venture a bet they come from all over the country.

 

[Commodus]

Do you people really think its the poor that are homeless? nope a poor family will go live with another poor family and have 20 people in a house. but a sex offender / mentally ill person and or drug user would rather live on the streets to do as they wish. Im sure we are not talking about people that just live somewhere besides a house and go work their job and return to live in their car, we are talking about people that have greater issues than 4 walls around them.

So funny people saying to build them a house!

Go try and ask homeless people to work for some food / money see what they say. IF they had a job and where homeless then they would not even be recognized on the streets its the ones with giant carts of trash yelling and fighting that everyone notices.

While I see a hint of an argument in there... claiming that most mentally ill, drug users and sex offenders voluntarily go homeless is just ignorant and spiteful.

I know people who've worked with the mentally ill and drug users (I can't speak to the sex offender subject, so I won't). They rarely choose to be out on the streets. They're homeless because they can't find work, or because their conditions limit the organizational and coping skills they'd need to get their lives back on track. They would love to have the stability of a home, and in some cases know that something needs to change, they just don't know how to accomplish that goal.

No, a house wouldn't immediately fix their problems, but it'd be a start. It'd provide reliable addresses for health care visits, mail and other contact without forcing them to live in a crowded space like a homeless shelter; it'd make sure they aren't vulnerable to harsh weather; it'd reduce the chances of run-ins with the law over minor issues like where they're sleeping. They may have to live under supervision (even if it's regular housemates), but they could use that as a base from which to recover.

 

[paperfist]

A lot of them, especially the newly homeless are not aware of these programs to begin with. The other is that many of them have homeless for long that given in to dispare.

Good point. A lot of them may not know where to go to get benefits, some may not even want to. It's not like they watch TV or listen to the radio and I'm sure no one is going out of their way to say. "Hey, go to x,y,z and they'll help you out. Me not being homeless though it's an odd concept to understand.

The caveat is they do seem to know where the soup kitchen/church is located for food so why not where to go for government/state assistance programs?

Nobody claims it's fixed except for people who want to ignore it.

If you're trying to say I'm ignoring it then you're wrong. I pay taxes like most people When a homeless person asks me for help I help out.

Technically it is fixed. There's government/state programs in place to help people that have found themselves homeless. Do you yourself not know there's welfare, food stamps, HUD, etc available? Around here anyway people can make a decent go at living while not having to work.

Housing shortage is another matter.

 

[Jhhnn]

If you're trying to say I'm ignoring it then you're wrong. I pay taxes like most people When a homeless person asks me for help I help out.

Technically it is fixed. There's government/state programs in place to help people that have found themselves homeless. Do you yourself not know there's welfare, food stamps, HUD, etc available? Around here anyway people can make a decent go at living while not having to work.

Housing shortage is another matter.

It's clear you'll believe what you want to believe. Doesn't mean it's the truth-

http://www.westword.com/news/homelessness-in-denver-the-cold-hard-facts-behind-six-myths-7348310

 

[killster1]

While I see a hint of an argument in there... claiming that most mentally ill, drug users and sex offenders voluntarily go homeless is just ignorant and spiteful.

I know people who've worked with the mentally ill and drug users (I can't speak to the sex offender subject, so I won't). They rarely choose to be out on the streets. They're homeless because they can't find work, or because their conditions limit the organizational and coping skills they'd need to get their lives back on track. They would love to have the stability of a home, and in some cases know that something needs to change, they just don't know how to accomplish that goal.

No, a house wouldn't immediately fix their problems, but it'd be a start. It'd provide reliable addresses for health care visits, mail and other contact without forcing them to live in a crowded space like a homeless shelter; it'd make sure they aren't vulnerable to harsh weather; it'd reduce the chances of run-ins with the law over minor issues like where they're sleeping. They may have to live under supervision (even if it's regular housemates), but they could use that as a base from which to recover.

... ummm alot of people prefer not to have a address as they will have parole officer or limitations on where they can reside. I know for a fact the homeless that are a problem are not just regular people with out a place to live. Wonder if you ever have watched the movie bus of fools. Its about cities across the nation sending mentally ill homeless to SF with a one way bus ticket.

So these honest great regular people that are homeless why are they a problem for others? just dont like the location of their sleeping spot? or is it the massive amounts of trash and inconsiderate acts they perform. (once saw homeless man getting a BJ from a hooker or homeless lady at a stop light corner in stockton.) So i have been to SF 100's of times and seen the quality of people living there. IMO the ones you have problem with are 100% drug/ mental / criminals

 

[Jhhnn]

Saying "I'm better than they are" makes it easier to say "it can't happen to me".

 

[paperfist]

It's clear you'll believe what you want to believe. Doesn't mean it's the truth-

http://www.westword.com/news/homelessness-in-denver-the-cold-hard-facts-behind-six-myths-7348310

I do believe there are homeless people, they are not a figment of my imagination. I believe that some may not be able to help themselves or get help from programs. I believe there are a whole host of reasons why they are homeless. The only thing I disagree with you on is they have a way out if they choose that path and thus they don't have to be homeless. Obviously with my above statement some will always choose to live that way or may not posses the ability to get out of that situation.

There's certainly more then a few stories of people that were homeless and are now 'on top of the world'. So it's not a matter of homeless people being trapped in a box sort to speak.

So this like many other discussions here on anandtech.com is not one with a 'one size fits' all answer or solution and therefore neither one of us can claim to be right.

 

[whm1974]

So this like many other discussions here on anandtech.com is not one with a 'one size fits' all answer or solution and therefore neither one of us can claim to be right.

No there isn't a one size solution or even a permanent one. However that doesn't mean that there aren't any solutions that will reduce the problem.

 

[Commodus]

... ummm alot of people prefer not to have a address as they will have parole officer or limitations on where they can reside. I know for a fact the homeless that are a problem are not just regular people with out a place to live. Wonder if you ever have watched the movie bus of fools. Its about cities across the nation sending mentally ill homeless to SF with a one way bus ticket.

So these honest great regular people that are homeless why are they a problem for others? just dont like the location of their sleeping spot? or is it the massive amounts of trash and inconsiderate acts they perform. (once saw homeless man getting a BJ from a hooker or homeless lady at a stop light corner in stockton.) So i have been to SF 100's of times and seen the quality of people living there. IMO the ones you have problem with are 100% drug/ mental / criminals

Stop digging your hole deeper, please.

How do you know this "for a fact?" Provide evidence, please, or stop signing checks your ass can't cash. And do you really think a movie, which conveniently doesn't appear to exist on IMDb or anywhere else on the internet, is representative of all homeless people everywhere?

"Regular" homeless people are often treated badly by the system regardless. They're told they can't sleep in public places when they can't find space at a shelter; they're discouraged from panhandling when they can't find work; and let's not even get started on the obstacles they face trying to find work, forcing them into those confrontations with the law.

And that's beside the point -- my beef was with your completely unsupported claim that most mentally ill and addicted homeless people voluntarily chose that route. I wouldn't rule out some of them doing so, but you're basically making the same flawed argument as an Ayn Rand-fetishizing conservative... that is, that these people have voluntarily chosen a hard life and deserve every bad thing that happens to them.

Does San Francisco have a problem with the homeless, some of whom are addicts or mentally ill? Sure. But saying that they chose that route is ridiculous on its face, and the irony is that San Francisco's main problem right now is a lack of affordable housing. Imagine if those people had places to stay and could focus on getting better (or at least managing their conditions) instead of trying to survive in a city where a studio apartment can cost over $3,000 a month.

 

[Jhhnn]

I do believe there are homeless people, they are not a figment of my imagination. I believe that some may not be able to help themselves or get help from programs. I believe there are a whole host of reasons why they are homeless. The only thing I disagree with you on is they have a way out if they choose that path and thus they don't have to be homeless. Obviously with my above statement some will always choose to live that way or may not posses the ability to get out of that situation.

There's certainly more then a few stories of people that were homeless and are now 'on top of the world'. So it's not a matter of homeless people being trapped in a box sort to speak.

So this like many other discussions here on anandtech.com is not one with a 'one size fits' all answer or solution and therefore neither one of us can claim to be right.

The problem is that as fast as systems in place reduce homelessness more homeless are created. People bump back & forth across that line all the time because they live paycheck to paycheck & hand to mouth when they're employed.

Yeh, sure, there are badly damaged derelicts among the homeless but they're an extreme minority.

 

[Greenman]

The problem is that as fast as systems in place reduce homelessness more homeless are created. People bump back & forth across that line all the time because they live paycheck to paycheck & hand to mouth when they're employed.

Yeh, sure, there are badly damaged derelicts among the homeless but they're an extreme minority.

That's the exact opposite of what I've been hearing hear in the bay area. All that gets discussed is that homelessness is a mental health issue.
I don't know either way, that's just what they've been talking about on the radio for the last few weeks.

 

[Jhhnn]

That's the exact opposite of what I've been hearing hear in the bay area. All that gets discussed is that homelessness is a mental health issue.
I don't know either way, that's just what they've been talking about on the radio for the last few weeks.

I can't speak to the issue as it applies specifically to SF. Even though the city has changed a lot since the 60's it still holds a special allure for the counterculture & the down & out.

 

[paperfist]

The problem is that as fast as systems in place reduce homelessness more homeless are created. People bump back & forth across that line all the time because they live paycheck to paycheck & hand to mouth when they're employed.

Yeh, sure, there are badly damaged derelicts among the homeless but they're an extreme minority.

Some men you just can't reach, which is they way they want it. Well they get it....

Maybe they want to be homeless? Check out of society without pulling the trigger.

I'm not smart enough to fix the problem, but society has tried to fix this and many other problems and there's never been a 100% success rate and there never will be. Wasn't there a guy giving out really small shelters to homeless people a few years back in CA? How did that pan out? As has been discussed there's programs already in place to help them. There's non-profits that help them. At some point you can't keep throwing resource after resource to get back diminishing returns.

I don't mind my tax payer money going to help out these issues, but you can only squeeze so much out of tax payers before they fall into the same problems. Stop spending money overseas and fix your own house as best you can first I say.

Pay check to pay check is being addressed by raising the minimum wage to $15.00. Of course the side effects of basic living expenses going up because of that is never addressed by government so the cycle continues in the wrong direction.

 

[killster1]

Stop digging your hole deeper, please.

How do you know this "for a fact?" Provide evidence, please, or stop signing checks your ass can't cash. And do you really think a movie, which conveniently doesn't appear to exist on IMDb or anywhere else on the internet, is representative of all homeless people everywhere?

"Regular" homeless people are often treated badly by the system regardless. They're told they can't sleep in public places when they can't find space at a shelter; they're discouraged from panhandling when they can't find work; and let's not even get started on the obstacles they face trying to find work, forcing them into those confrontations with the law.

And that's beside the point -- my beef was with your completely unsupported claim that most mentally ill and addicted homeless people voluntarily chose that route. I wouldn't rule out some of them doing so, but you're basically making the same flawed argument as an Ayn Rand-fetishizing conservative... that is, that these people have voluntarily chosen a hard life and deserve every bad thing that happens to them.

Does San Francisco have a problem with the homeless, some of whom are addicts or mentally ill? Sure. But saying that they chose that route is ridiculous on its face, and the irony is that San Francisco's main problem right now is a lack of affordable housing. Imagine if those people had places to stay and could focus on getting better (or at least managing their conditions) instead of trying to survive in a city where a studio apartment can cost over $3,000 a month.

So you didnt answer my question. why is a honest regular person panhandling? why are they sleeping in public? really that un-resourceful that then need to resort to those tactics? Hell if they had choice of be rich with place to live not work yea ok they would choose that over being homless, But what if their choice was to be sober and rich with place to live, yes they would say that is their choice but would they really not F it up sell their possessions and go get high off the proceeds? Guess you can sponcer a few and find out.. wait what if they had choice of stand next to home depot and try to work for a living or to pan handle and buy alcohol with the money hey they choose the no work route most of the time.

Ok and yes i do know from first hand since i actually was homeless and living in the bay area. Have visited SF so many times and have seen the chaos. its not regular people that just down on their luck.

So why not move to a city with out 3000$ rent?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

So you didnt answer my question. why is a honest regular person panhandling? why are they sleeping in public? really that un-resourceful that then need to resort to those tactics? Hell if they had choice of be rich with place to live not work yea ok they would choose that over being homless, But what if their choice was to be sober and rich with place to live, yes they would say that is their choice but would they really not F it up sell their possessions and go get high off the proceeds? Guess you can sponcer a few and find out.. wait what if they had choice of stand next to home depot and try to work for a living or to pan handle and buy alcohol with the money hey they choose the no work route most of the time.

Ok and yes i do know from first hand since i actually was homeless and living in the bay area. Have visited SF so many times and have seen the chaos. its not regular people that just down on their luck.

So why not move to a city with out 3000$ rent?

not too many places you can get to on foot from the bay area.

 

[Greenman]

I can't speak to the issue as it applies specifically to SF. Even though the city has changed a lot since the 60's it still holds a special allure for the counterculture & the down & out.

Ain't that the truth. I used to have family on my wife's side that lived there, all but one evacuated over the years. They all decided there were better places to live. The big plus for me is that I never have to go there anymore.

 

[Jhhnn]

Some men you just can't reach, which is they way they want it. Well they get it....

Maybe they want to be homeless? Check out of society without pulling the trigger.

I'm not smart enough to fix the problem, but society has tried to fix this and many other problems and there's never been a 100% success rate and there never will be. Wasn't there a guy giving out really small shelters to homeless people a few years back in CA? How did that pan out? As has been discussed there's programs already in place to help them. There's non-profits that help them. At some point you can't keep throwing resource after resource to get back diminishing returns.

I don't mind my tax payer money going to help out these issues, but you can only squeeze so much out of tax payers before they fall into the same problems. Stop spending money overseas and fix your own house as best you can first I say.

Pay check to pay check is being addressed by raising the minimum wage to $15.00. Of course the side effects of basic living expenses going up because of that is never addressed by government so the cycle continues in the wrong direction.

Chronically homeless people are a small minority of the total homeless at any given time.

About 10% of the total homeless population in the US on a given night might be considered "chronic, unsheltered" homeless -- that is, people who are currently living on the streets who have been continuously homeless for one whole year, or who have been homeless four or more times in the past three years.

https://www.quora.com/On-average-how-long-are-homeless-people-on-the-streets-for

Those are old numbers but I doubt they're much changed.

The truth is that all too many Americans live on the edge of financial ruin-

https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/22/pf/emergency-expenses-household-finances/index.html