The Constitutional right to a job.

[CADsortaGUY]

You two fail to realize my point. You can't FORCE people to do things. I CHOOSE to work because of it's rewards(actual or percieved). Those who don't wish to work don't have to - but they are ultimately responsible for themselves and are free to make that CHOICE.
The gov't plays a role - don't be so assinine in your assumptions of me or my position. The gov't was formed to provide the structure necessary for the economy to function - NOT to guarantee everyone a job. And before your overinflated heads expodes - I do help those that can't help themselves, but I do so ON MY OWN - as it should be. I CHOOSE to help - got it?

Now run along...

CkG

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Zebo
It's weird to me how anti-social behavior (self-intrest) has become so normalized and acceptable behavior.. Seems to me a self-fulfilling prophecy where everyone is entitled to be a immoral, shiftless, self-gratifying, good-for nothing sh1t. I think that's what happening in the world today very slowly.

It is the egos way of protecting itself from the terror of feeling alone. We were given the choice, do as we say or you won't be loved. The child who is unloved cannot survive; he must cave in or die. We the dead morn the loss of ourselves and fear that being alone and hate the society which holds that threat over our heads. Unfortunately we also crave our real life and seek to return to it. Thus we spend our time rejecting and being rejected so we can stay close to the pain. But we do this unconsciously so as not to awaken the original. But it's the original trauma that blocks the door. Did you but suffer you would not suffer. The way out of a capsized boat is down.

Your Pop psyche lesson for the day.

Edit: See above for the explanation of Cain.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Corn
If we are predisposed for cooperation, how do you account for Cain?

We are predisposed for survival. Cooperation was simply a tool used by the primitive to ensure their survival. By nature we are competitive creatures, small cooperative groups constantly waged war against other groups to secure the most fruitful lands. It's easy to be cooperative with "your own".......

Which is exactly how these anti-human people are acting. They basically want mercantilism all over again, except that we don't even import the raw materials. Just export to people who can't afford what we want to sell because they're evil furriners.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Corn
If we are predisposed for cooperation, how do you account for Cain?

We are predisposed for survival. Cooperation was simply a tool used by the primitive to ensure their survival. By nature we are competitive creatures, small cooperative groups constantly waged war against other groups to secure the most fruitful lands. It's easy to be cooperative with "your own".......

Which is exactly how these anti-human people are acting. They basically want mercantilism all over again, except that we don't even import the raw materials. Just export to people who can't afford what we want to sell because they're evil furriners.

Exactly, now you just have to see who your own are.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Corn
If we are predisposed for cooperation, how do you account for Cain?

We are predisposed for survival. Cooperation was simply a tool used by the primitive to ensure their survival. By nature we are competitive creatures, small cooperative groups constantly waged war against other groups to secure the most fruitful lands. It's easy to be cooperative with "your own".......

Cain was a hopeless pessimist as you are when you say "Cooperation was simply a tool used by the primitive to ensure their survival" I would say the cooperative tribes where the most succesful and breed and survied, making cooperation part of thier genetic makeup even sucessful people carry today. A succesful society would make "the group" or "thier own" the whole world or whole county at least.

 

[naddicott]

Originally posted by: Corn
If we are predisposed for cooperation, how do you account for Cain?

Easy. Fiction.

We are predisposed for survival. Cooperation was simply a tool used by the primitive to ensure their survival. By nature we are competitive creatures, small cooperative groups constantly waged war against other groups to secure the most fruitful lands. It's easy to be cooperative with "your own".......

Survival is ultimately meaningless without the ability to successfully pass on your genetic information to future generations. Being cooperative with "your own" ensures the likelyhood of the survival of your heritage. The difficult question in this day and age is how far to cast the definition of "our own", a question that is harder to answer in a heterogeneous country like the U.S. where the guy we may be cooperating with may not even look like us or speak with the same accent.


In regards to the topic, such a right will never be recognized in the U.S., in my opinion. If anything, we may someday emulate a version of the mandatory 35 hour workweek that some European countries are trying to use as a tool to increase employment rates. The difficulties involved are haivng per-employee fixed costs low enough that hiring two 35 hour/week positions is nearly equivalent to hiring one 70 hour/week position, as well as having enough available labor to provide two qualified individuals for a task when previously only one individual was fully qualified and experienced enough to handle that task.

We definitely aren't headed in that direction anytime soon. If you want to live in a country with something closer to a guaranteed "right to a job", you may have to move elsewhere.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: naddicott

The difficult question in this day and age is how far to cast the definition of "our own", a question that is harder to answer in a heterogeneous country like the U.S. where the guy we may be cooperating with may not even look like us or speak with the same accent.

And people who are "your own" may have a different accent.

In regards to the topic, such a right will never be recognized in the U.S., in my opinion. If anything, we may someday emulate a version of the mandatory 35 hour workweek that some European countries are trying to use as a tool to increase employment rates. The difficulties involved are haivng per-employee fixed costs low enough that hiring two 35 hour/week positions is nearly equivalent to hiring one 70 hour/week position, as well as having enough available labor to provide two qualified individuals for a task when previously only one individual was fully qualified and experienced enough to handle that task.

Also, the cost of benefits and administration (especially HR) double. In low-margin industries, which typically are the ones that are being exported, that would basically force most companies to lose all their profits, which would cause them to lose all their investors, which would cause them to basically disappear. Now instead of having one person employed and one unemployed, we have two people unemployed and people lacking products or services that they need or want. Even Greenspan knows better than to promote that.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Zebo
It's weird to me how anti-social behavior (self-intrest) has become so normalized and acceptable behavior.. Seems to me a self-fulfilling prophecy where everyone is entitled to be a immoral, shiftless, self-gratifying, good-for nothing sh1t. I think that's what happening in the world today very slowly.

It is the egos way of protecting itself from the terror of feeling alone. We were given the choice, do as we say or you won't be loved. The child who is unloved cannot survive; he must cave in or die. We the dead morn the loss of ourselves and fear that being alone and hate the society which holds that threat over our heads. Unfortunately we also crave our real life and seek to return to it. Thus we spend our time rejecting and being rejected so we can stay close to the pain. But we do this unconsciously so as not to awaken the original. But it's the original trauma that blocks the door. Did you but suffer you would not suffer. The way out of a capsized boat is down.

Your Pop psyche lesson for the day.

Edit: See above for the explanation of Cain.

I think when I retire I'll become a dedicated primitivist, maybe that will help.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Zebo
It's weird to me how anti-social behavior (self-intrest) has become so normalized and acceptable behavior.. Seems to me a self-fulfilling prophecy where everyone is entitled to be a immoral, shiftless, self-gratifying, good-for nothing sh1t. I think that's what happening in the world today very slowly.

It is the egos way of protecting itself from the terror of feeling alone. We were given the choice, do as we say or you won't be loved. The child who is unloved cannot survive; he must cave in or die. We the dead morn the loss of ourselves and fear that being alone and hate the society which holds that threat over our heads. Unfortunately we also crave our real life and seek to return to it. Thus we spend our time rejecting and being rejected so we can stay close to the pain. But we do this unconsciously so as not to awaken the original. But it's the original trauma that blocks the door. Did you but suffer you would not suffer. The way out of a capsized boat is down.

Your Pop psyche lesson for the day.

Edit: See above for the explanation of Cain.

I think when I retire I'll become a dedicated primitivist, maybe that will help.

Living as Thoreau(or Emerson?) did for a time doesn't sound too bad at times. I'd be single and kidless in short order though

CkG

Edit - it was Thoreau.

 

[naddicott]

Originally posted by: rjain
Also, the cost of benefits and administration (especially HR) double.

That's exactly what I was referring to by "per-employee fixed costs" needing to be lower. Benefits aren't such a big hit if they are already provided by the government to every citizen regardless of their employment status.

Of course Greenspan isn't going to promote a 35 hour week. Our economic infrastructure is so far from being able to handle such a regulation effectively that it would indeed be economic suicide. Even the countries that are trying limited workweeks aren't having a very easy time with those constraints. When I say the U.S. may try something like that in the distant future, I hear Conan O'Brian's "In the year 2000" music playing in the background...

Now that everyone is suddenly becoming a "manager", and thus not being entitled to additional overtime pay, I suspect we'll see the US continue to move in the exact opposite direction: fewer people working even more hours.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: naddicott

Originally posted by: rjain
Also, the cost of benefits and administration (especially HR) double.

That's exactly what I was referring to by "per-employee fixed costs" needing to be lower. Benefits aren't such a big hit if they are already provided by the government to every citizen regardless of their employment status.

Of course Greenspan isn't going to promote a 35 hour week. Our economic infrastructure is so far from being able to handle such a regulation effectively that it would indeed be economic suicide. Even the countries that are trying limited workweeks aren't having a very easy time with those constraints. When I say the U.S. may try something like that in the distant future, I hear Conan O'Brian's "In the year 2000" music playing in the background...

Now that everyone is suddenly becoming a "manager", and thus not being entitled to additional overtime pay, I suspect we'll see the US continue to move in the exact opposite direction: fewer people working even more hours.

And with just a bit more effort we'll reinstitute slavery. At least they won't starve.

 

[LunarRay]

Some of you'll must be so self orientated that the mere notion of all folks having the OPPORTUNITY to work somehow tweaks your 'what will this cost me' button. It costs you nil, zilch, zero in fact, it would lower your taxes, insure the SS system was there for your later years and provide a place of employment for your progeny and reduce the crime levels related to folks who steal and vandalize. The only role of government in this is to bring back to America that which was in America, its manufacturing and to insure any trading partner we deal with plays fairly. It may require tariff implementation and other penalties and may require another way of negotiating foreign policy but, if we don't change our policy of bribery at the cost of American Jobs we'll not be able to negotiate anything. We'll be broke. The government already uses monetary and fiscal policy to insure jobs are available so what's new? The new thing involves the setting of standards away from Corporate Power and a return to a People Power. We ought to be the ones with the Power not some foreign owned Corporation that bribes the politicians to do their will. If you don't see where we are heading you need to look with an open mind and just observe and question. Who benefits by all these decisions that go on today in Business and What could be the Agenda. We align with this or that party and no matter what they say it must be right. Who pulls their strings? And why.. It is not difficult to see the Agenda of Corporate domination. They need our power and some willingly give it away. We start taking it back by first having the employment based on our Nation being the beneficiary and let the pieces fall where they may. Any national debt creation that does not seek to empower the individual is nothing but a further attempt to reduce the power of the people. Next they will find ways to eliminate your pension, 401k and other savings and holdings.. We must stick together or become slaves on the world's arena of stupidity.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Some of you'll must be so self orientated that the mere notion of all folks having the OPPORTUNITY to work somehow tweaks your 'what will this cost me' button.

Everyone has the opportunity to work. All I've opposed is making it illegal to have the opportunity to employ whoever will do the best job for the best price.

 

[Corn]

Some of you'll must be so self orientated that the mere notion of all folks having the OPPORTUNITY to work somehow tweaks your 'what will this cost me' button.

There is not a single able bodied person in this country today that does not have the OPPORTUNITY to work.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Corn

There is not a single able bodied person in this country today that does not have the OPPORTUNITY to work.

Even people who are NOT able bodied are allowed to work, if they want to. Everyone has some skills, even if some parts of their body don't work quite right. Someone missing both arms can use their legs; someone missing both legs can use their arms; someone missing all limbs can use their brain. If they're really devoted to progressing humanity, they'll work with whatever tools they can scrap up. Of course, there are limits, and I don't oppose offering those people additional support. In some way it's selfish, because I could be there, too. Accidents happen, and insurance is a good thing.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Corn

Some of you'll must be so self orientated that the mere notion of all folks having the OPPORTUNITY to work somehow tweaks your 'what will this cost me' button.

There is not a single able bodied person in this country today that does not have the OPPORTUNITY to work.

Assume I have no corn in my corn bank. I have the opportunity to go the the bank and request some corn, sure. They say "sorry you're plum out of corn" I had the opportunity to look but not to have. There was none to have.

The OPPORTUNITY to work depends directly on the availability of an existing job. No job no opportunity.

 

[Corn]

The OPPORTUNITY to work depends directly on the availability of an existing job. No job no opportunity.

Are you really trying to say there are *no* jobs available?

I'll report back on sunday with how many pages of help wanted ads are in my local paper. Monday I'll be in San Fran, I'll report how many pages of help wanted ads are in sunday's Chronicle. We'll see if there are *no* available jobs..........

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Corn

The OPPORTUNITY to work depends directly on the availability of an existing job. No job no opportunity.

Are you really trying to say there are *no* jobs available?

I'll report back on sunday with how many pages of help wanted ads are in my local paper. Monday I'll be in San Fran, I'll report how many pages of help wanted ads are in sunday's Chronicle. We'll see if there are *no* available jobs..........

Hope there are enough for all the out of work folks... but, I doubt it.

 

[Corn]

Hope there are enough for all the out of work folks... but, I doubt it.

This evening I was at my local mall. I couldn't help but notice how many "help wanted" signs on the cash registers. I keep wondering how if there aren't enought jobs to go around why these shopkeepers have to endure the indignity of fashioning these home made signs......maybe it's simply a new trendy design accessory?

All I know is that we've (the local office of my employer) had open reqs for 5 well (but not quite top of the industry scale) paid positions we've been unable to fill for over 6 months--basically due to a lack of interest......I dunno, it's crazy. Of course we probably aren't going to appeal to the out of work twentysomething "web developer" who thinks he's worth $100k because he was overpaid and underachieved for 2 or 3 years of his life.............

 

[todesengel]

Moonbum, in the past and under another handle, didn't you post and brag about how you exploited the workers (especially women) in your own business?

Why don't you try starting a topic when you don't have your head stuck in the wort?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: todesengel
Moonbum, in the past and under another handle, didn't you post and brag about how you exploited the workers (especially women) in your own business?

Why don't you try starting a topic when you don't have your head stuck in the wort?

Oh my God, todesangel. You weren't even born yet when that happened. How on earth do you remember that. That was my first real masterpiece. Even Red Dawn liked that. I remember that kind of thing. That thread was about a woman. Fetsbabe, maybe, and the usual right winged crowd laughing about some racial joke or situation as if it said nothing about them. I argued they were racially insensitive and got nowhere Then I did exactly as you said. I implied I had many women employees that I degraded as women. My, my, how things look different depending on who's cow gets gored. Hehe, it was an excellent example, I remember pointing out, that an ounce of demonstration is worth a whole tone of argument. The racial put down was OK, but an identically structured sexual one aimed at the racist wasn't. I can still hear the howls. I was providing a demonstration, not telling the truth. How is it, pray tell, you remember that, and how did you miss the point? Again, everything is a big fat joke till it's you whose under the gun. Are you a girl? I can't imagine how you'd remember otherwise. I went out on a limb to make a point. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I am on women's side.

A blast from the past. Hehe!

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
ELFenix, would you favor a state that kept you alive in a tank so it could harvest your cells, or do you have a right to a life. Does our right to life extend beyond a tank. Does our right to life include a right to a life of dignity. If so what person can have dignity who cannot find a way to support himself and his faimil with some kind of measure of dignity. What is a life forced to stay on welfare. Why should even one person be unemployed. Why should one person work fourty hours and another work none? Evenly distribute the load. Solarize the nation, build public parks, revamp the cities to make them human. Build underground vacuum tunnels to move masses of freight all over the nation, create communes where people with nothing can self sustain. Care for the sick, mentor kids, create a nation where caring is real and everywhere.

you insulted me so i feel no need to answer your statements. if you want to maintain complete civility then maybe you can discuss.

Oh man, that's not much of a clue. I don't get what you are saying. Did I insult your arrogant intelligence you got from being educated by a school. Did in insult your human intelligence you have somewhere in your heart. What intelligence did I insult. I don't see big sore toes. Perhaps though you sought to insult my intelligence by implying I insulted yours. That won't work. I know I don't know anything. I just hide it well.

more insults. way to argue

 

[bigpow]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The Declaration of Independence declares that it is self evident that man has a right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. One cannot achieve happiness without some kind of financial assurance and for Americans today that means a job.
...

Sorry, I don't mean to hurt anyone's feeling here.. but since you've put it that way, why not this way?
One could be happy & free if goverment pays a lot of money every month (err, like our native friends)... so why not make that the new right?

Financial assurance does not necessary mean a job - at least not to every person and not every job.

I'm confusing myself now... I'll stop now.

 

[Moonbeam]

more insults. way to argue
--------------------
More unnamed and unsupported implications of insults.

Way to argue. People who have huge sore toes are always having them stepped on. Doctors have a name for that. It's only a description of an illness, but you'd probably take it as an insult.