The Comp Sci Degree

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: zephyrprime

Originally posted by: yllusNot to belittle those reading here who work in those positions, but working helpdesk, doing PC assembly or desktop tech support isn't computer science. I can teach a reasonably literate 15 year old to do any of the above.

You would think so but I work in the field and let me tell you, we get lots of people that are absolute horrible at tech support. From my experience, the only people any good with computer support are people who grew up with computers. Older people, no matter how many classes they take, are just never any good. If your 15 year old is already familiar to computers then you could probably turn him into a tech as easily as you claim but if the person has no aptitude for technical things (and the majority of the population does not) then it is a hopeless task.

I have a CS degree. When I graduated in 2003, the job market was absolutely horrible. I couldn't even get a help desk job let alone a software engineering job. I had an internship for 3 years at a software company as a QA guy and they wouldn't hire me when I graduated. They had sent 1/2 their programmers to China and laid off a ton of people. But now, I still can't find a software engineering job (although I haven't tried much as of late) but help desk jobs are super easy to get. The difference is like night and day! The success of a job hunt depends so much on the general state of the economy it's not even funny.

I wouldn't say you work in the field quite yet, graduating in 2003 with nothing more the 3 years of internship and pulling help desk jobs.

There are a lot of older guys than me (I am 34) that are very tech saavy. They kept their skillsets up even if they started in course requireing punching cards to run programs.

A Software Engineering job is going to take someone with quite a few years of experience to be good at it.

 

[Azurik]

Everyone knows that a Computer Science/Engineering graduate will generally make more than a Business Administration graduate right out of college. The prior degree is more tangible and the skills are more defined, while the latter really depends on the person's knack for business, communication skills, financial knowledge, strategic planning and leadership ability.

Longer term though, the top business people will out-earn the top computer people. The link someone posted stated average earnings in a lifetime. This hampens statistics for business men/women because there's too many subpar business graduates. It is too popular of a major, and brings in everyone and their brother. It is hard to evaluate how well a person will be at business so they make the entrance criteria low... but take a look at the generally top people in management... CEO's, CFO's, Directors, President, Vice President, Managers, DM, GM - the majority of them = a business background/degree.

I am not knocking people with technical degrees. It takes a HECK of a lot of interest/intellect in order to run through one of those programs for a diploma. Props and respect to that. But be aware, leaders need to be able to communicate clearly and have great social skills. They did not create the stereotype of shy/reserved programmers out of thin air.

I may be a bit biased due to my business background/degree, but hold myself to what I said above.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Azurik
Everyone knows that a Computer Science/Engineering graduate will generally make more than a Business Administration graduate right out of college. The prior degree is more tangible and the skills are more defined, while the latter really depends on the person's knack for business, communication skills, financial knowledge, strategic planning and leadership ability.

Longer term though, the top business people will out-earn the top computer people. The link someone posted stated average earnings in a lifetime. This hampens statistics for business men/women because there's too many subpar business graduates. It is too popular of a major, and brings in everyone and their brother. It is hard to evaluate how well a person will be at business so they make the entrance criteria low... but take a look at the generally top people in management... CEO's, CFO's, Directors, President, Vice President, Managers, DM, GM - the majority of them = a business background/degree.

I am not knocking people with technical degrees. It takes a HECK of a lot of interest/intellect in order to run through one of those programs for a diploma. Props and respect to that. But be aware, leaders need to be able to communicate clearly and have great social skills. They did not create the stereotype of shy/reserved programmers out of thin air.

I may be a bit biased due to my business background/degree, but hold myself to what I said above.

While most may have a business background I have found most of the upper level executives actually have degrees very different than business.

The shy/reserved programmer happens, these people by default of their own personalities usually don't push into management. There are shy/reserved business majors though...accounting and some of the likes....

A lot of times a business degree is gotten but the position is open to that person regardless (alot of family owned big business works like this).

I say at the executive level your degree has no bearing.

 

[Saint Nick]

yeah, i'm getting my CS degree... well i'm working on it. it's going to take me longer than four years because i didn't place well on both my ACT and on the university's placement exams. soo... i started with intermediate algebra (quite a joke, believe me). and now i get to do pre-calc/trig this coming semester, then finally sophomore year i get to do calculus!

and finally next semester i get to do intro to c++

 

[thesurge]

OMG Doctors are rich...


wait... i already knew that.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: Azurik
Everyone knows that a Computer Science/Engineering graduate will generally make more than a Business Administration graduate right out of college. The prior degree is more tangible and the skills are more defined, while the latter really depends on the person's knack for business, communication skills, financial knowledge, strategic planning and leadership ability.

Longer term though, the top business people will out-earn the top computer people. The link someone posted stated average earnings in a lifetime. This hampens statistics for business men/women because there's too many subpar business graduates. It is too popular of a major, and brings in everyone and their brother. It is hard to evaluate how well a person will be at business so they make the entrance criteria low... but take a look at the generally top people in management... CEO's, CFO's, Directors, President, Vice President, Managers, DM, GM - the majority of them = a business background/degree.

I am not knocking people with technical degrees. It takes a HECK of a lot of interest/intellect in order to run through one of those programs for a diploma. Props and respect to that. But be aware, leaders need to be able to communicate clearly and have great social skills. They did not create the stereotype of shy/reserved programmers out of thin air.

I may be a bit biased due to my business background/degree, but hold myself to what I said above.

top people in management generally have MBAs... but i don't think there is a disproportionate amount of them with bachelors in business. the richest people in this country have strong technical backgrounds.

 

[hans007]

Originally posted by: zephyrprime

Originally posted by: yllusNot to belittle those reading here who work in those positions, but working helpdesk, doing PC assembly or desktop tech support isn't computer science. I can teach a reasonably literate 15 year old to do any of the above.

You would think so but I work in the field and let me tell you, we get lots of people that are absolute horrible at tech support. From my experience, the only people any good with computer support are people who grew up with computers. Older people, no matter how many classes they take, are just never any good. If your 15 year old is already familiar to computers then you could probably turn him into a tech as easily as you claim but if the person has no aptitude for technical things (and the majority of the population does not) then it is a hopeless task.

I have a CS degree. When I graduated in 2003, the job market was absolutely horrible. I couldn't even get a help desk job let alone a software engineering job. I had an internship for 3 years at a software company as a QA guy and they wouldn't hire me when I graduated. They had sent 1/2 their programmers to China and laid off a ton of people. But now, I still can't find a software engineering job (although I haven't tried much as of late) but help desk jobs are super easy to get. The difference is like night and day! The success of a job hunt depends so much on the general state of the economy it's not even funny.

i graduated in 2003 as well. the market for software engineers was really bad because of the death of the dot coms it seemed. i ended up working swing shift at this data center, where i basically did nothing all night outside of schedule jobs on a mainframe, load things onto win2k servers and backup things.

now , i suppose the guy that replaced me after 6 months (when i got a better job) was "qualified" but a lot of you are saying IT is what a monkey can do. the others were right in saying you have to have grown up with this stuff to do it still.

I mean its pretty hard to teach some guy off the street that stuff, they just dont have i don't know the "instincts" i guess of having grown up with it. i've messed with computers since i was 6, so plugging in video cards, configuring a lan etc is like riding a bike for me. but i've got friends who run multiple server farms, unix boxes, have to design network infrastructures, code custom middleware to cisco routers things like that. and they are still considered "IT" people. so its not exactly computer science, but it will apply a lot of the lessons of CS. IT is more infrastructure centered, but if you have a computer science degree it will help as the things you have learned will definitely apply in some areas.

as it is, from a software engineering standpoint though, Computer science degrees are about learning how to think. how to design things. learning a new language is a piece of cake. its just how to apply those tools that you go to school, how to write efficient algorithms, etc.

and the jobs being outsourced do tend to be monkey jobs, for stuff like database admin and junk like that. its because the indian and chinese people for the most part really are basically highly trained monkeys.

the ones we have used, basically it works like this. if i didn't know how to code say in java, and some outsourced guy did . i'd send him a design spec and he'd make it into a program, and we'd chisel it out until it was what i wanted.

now i am not in charge of anything like that, but that is generally what i've seen done. the chinese and indians A. do not seem like they know how to think for themselves, B. have horrible communications skills, and C. seems like they just read c++ for dummies and became software engineers. they always wants specs, and tons of instructions. you cannot be like "just wing it".

I guess that is why software engineers in america seem t obe doing well now, especially since it has returned to an equilibrium amount of engineers (after the gold rush of random people trying to be engineers during the dot comes, and the subsequent fall off in graduates after everything fell apart and the outsourcing of the monkey jobs).

I think you guys who are bashing IT really shouldn't. there are monkeys in IT and there are monkeys in software engineering. but there are gods of IT too, and I have no clue how to do their jobs, so its not fair to bash the entire field.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: hans007

i graduated in 2003 as well. the market for software engineers was really bad because of the death of the dot coms it seemed. i ended up working swing shift at this data center, where i basically did nothing all night outside of schedule jobs on a mainframe, load things onto win2k servers and backup things.

In 1989 (graduating high school), they said there would be no computer jobs because the colleges were saturated. Doctor and Lawyer candidates were switching to Comp Sci/Engineering as easier money...however, 2-4 years later they were flunking out. At that time I was already accepted to Pharmacy college yet still wanted to get back to computers.

The main part of it all is degree equals nothing. There are a lot of straight A engineers and scientists that know only how to do their homework and test well. They cannot think abstractly and thinking that way is how one survives in our field. Problems are typically non-textbook.

Originally posted by: hans007
now , i suppose the guy that replaced me after 6 months (when i got a better job) was "qualified" but a lot of you are saying IT is what a monkey can do. the others were right in saying you have to have grown up with this stuff to do it still.

I mean its pretty hard to teach some guy off the street that stuff, they just dont have i don't know the "instincts" i guess of having grown up with it. i've messed with computers since i was 6, so plugging in video cards, configuring a lan etc is like riding a bike for me. but i've got friends who run multiple server farms, unix boxes, have to design network infrastructures, code custom middleware to cisco routers things like that. and they are still considered "IT" people. so its not exactly computer science, but it will apply a lot of the lessons of CS. IT is more infrastructure centered, but if you have a computer science degree it will help as the things you have learned will definitely apply in some areas.

This is true in alot of fields...a doctor is not really a doctor until they intern. Someone not thinking and breathing the science and ideas behind medicine a long time will not be able to just do the four years of med school and become a great doc.

However, also; in most fields everything is trainable (monkey work)...you can take almost anyone with a little drive and get them doing anything. Still extraordinary people with diverse skillsets are the ones that constantly succeed.

Originally posted by: hans007
as it is, from a software engineering standpoint though, Computer science degrees are about learning how to think. how to design things. learning a new language is a piece of cake. its just how to apply those tools that you go to school, how to write efficient algorithms, etc.

and the jobs being outsourced do tend to be monkey jobs, for stuff like database admin and junk like that. its because the indian and chinese people for the most part really are basically highly trained monkeys.

Not exactly...a lot of it has to do with the typical American worker wanted too much money for too little work. Look around your own companies. I work with a mix of degree holders and there are high percentages of all of them outside smoking or talking constantly. They talk about how they have too much to do, and too little time for themselves...but I always am passing them and they are always not working.

Originally posted by: hans007
the ones we have used, basically it works like this. if i didn't know how to code say in java, and some outsourced guy did . i'd send him a design spec and he'd make it into a program, and we'd chisel it out until it was what i wanted.

now i am not in charge of anything like that, but that is generally what i've seen done. the chinese and indians A. do not seem like they know how to think for themselves, B. have horrible communications skills, and C. seems like they just read c++ for dummies and became software engineers. they always wants specs, and tons of instructions. you cannot be like "just wing it".

That's pretty screwed up stereotype. Also programmers are not necessarily software engineers and most companies still haven't bought into the extra costs designing software through Software Engineering. Same way ISO9000 standards aren't adopted by all yet.

Originally posted by: hans007
I guess that is why software engineers in america seem t obe doing well now, especially since it has returned to an equilibrium amount of engineers (after the gold rush of random people trying to be engineers during the dot comes, and the subsequent fall off in graduates after everything fell apart and the outsourcing of the monkey jobs).

Not really there are still a lot that can't keep jobs. However, it's because they don't understand what they are really doing.

Originally posted by: hans007
I think you guys who are bashing IT really shouldn't. there are monkeys in IT and there are monkeys in software engineering. but there are gods of IT too, and I have no clue how to do their jobs, so its not fair to bash the entire field.

People look at coding as easy, which it is. In real coding jobs you are given exactly what you need to program...then it's just academic. In higher level jobs where no one knows what to do, only what they need in very general terms....this is where experts shine.

Those that can come into a business knowing nothing about it and build applications that make the whole business more profitable and efficient are the ones that will grow. All of these people require those that can just do and not think on their teams though. Those are the coders, basic net engineers, data entry personnel, and report jockeys.

It really scales to all professions, there are a lot of doctors and lawyers that don't do very well at all. Heck every business I have worked as had a few lawyers doing low/mid level paying jobs that have nothing to do with their degrees.

 

[MadOni0n]

alkemyst is right

 

[wasssup]

IT is a waste of time, I graduated in May 2004 and haven't been able to find a "real" job (i'm on my 2nd job and this one sucks too, I feel like my life is getting wasted away doing stupid crap). I also make close to nothing..

 

[Feldenak]

If I were to do it all over again, I would double major in Logistics and MIS.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: FrequencyX
Compsci is somewhat doomed IMHO ... IT job market is flooded with everybody and their Grandma with a Computer science degree. And they are all fighting for the same jobs. Way too many IT people and not enough jobs.
I have also noticed that we are doing alot more for alot less compared to the IT boom. Some cases programmers are making only 25000 a year. Not worth it I think... Ditch the Compsci and go for something along the lines of Business or Business Administration

I agree to an extent. While I don't think the salaries are as gloomy as some make them out to be, the growth is pretty much stagnant and the market has more than enough applicants... plus you have the whole outsourcing issue.

But an even bigger red flag should be the number of people you see who regret going into the field, regardless of what money they're making. Back when the boom was taking place, hobbyists were dying to get into fulltime positions and the people in fulltime positions shot up the corporate ladder. Now the majority of us can't even look at a computer without getting nauseated (sp?). I'm at the point where I hate computers. HATE HATE HATE. They pay the bills but so much rather be doing something with a more diversified workday and more interaction with people outside the IT field (aside from the "can you get your guys to make this button orange?").

You had better be ready to MARRY computers if you're going to major in compsci. Trust me, sport.

JMO

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: gopunk
top people in management generally have MBAs... but i don't think there is a disproportionate amount of them with bachelors in business. the richest people in this country have strong technical backgrounds.

Actually, an MBA is becoming the new Bachelor's. Everyone and their mother has them or is getting them because of how accessible they've become (read: online courses). Hell, there were data entry people at my last job with MBA's!

In this day and age, top level execs have their MBA as a given, but also have other backgrounds. The President of my company has an MBA and a Bachelor's in Mathematics. The President of my old company had an MBA and Mechanical Engineering degree.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: wasssup
IT is a waste of time, I graduated in May 2004 and haven't been able to find a "real" job (i'm on my 2nd job and this one sucks too, I feel like my life is getting wasted away doing stupid crap). I also make close to nothing..

So what do you really know, what experience do you have and where are you trying to work?

Also what IT field are you trying for? A doctor doesn't just say they practice medicine nor a lawyer practices law, neither does an engineer say "well, I engineer!"

Not many people find the great job straight out of college. It's usually the 4 year mark (or 2nd year if with one company) that you start out the gate.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
You had better be ready to MARRY computers if you're going to major in compsci. Trust me, sport.

JMO

What about routers and switches? Frame Relay/ATM?

Personally I'd rather avoid computers at work...give me some connectivity to solve.

 

I unfortunatly got my degree in CS. I hate programming for the most part, and I'm very sick of IT work in general.

I left the IT/programming market, never to return.

Good luck with your career, if you're good in something you can always make money, no matter how "flooded" the market is.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: FrequencyX

Originally posted by: tfinch2

Originally posted by: FrequencyX
Compsci is somewhat doomed IMHO ... IT job market is flooded with everybody and their Grandma with a Computer science degree. And they are all fighting for the same jobs. Way too many IT people and not enough jobs.
I have also noticed that we are doing alot more for alot less compared to the IT boom. Some cases programmers are making only 25000 a year. Not worth it I think... Ditch the Compsci and go for something along the lines of Business or Business Administration

General business degrees are a waste.

Not quite according to MSN Money

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/CollegeandFamily/Savingforcollege/P59866.asp

Have any other ideas for a degree of study instead of just trolling?

If you read the rest of the article, it also seems to indicate that at the 2 year and 4 year level, computer degress are worth significantly more than business degrees.

 

[Reckoner]

Originally posted by: SampSon
I unfortunatly got my degree in CS. I hate programming for the most part, and I'm very sick of IT work in general.

I left the IT/programming market, never to return.

Good luck with your career, if you're good in something you can always make money, no matter how "flooded" the market is.

Out of curiousity, what field are you in now?

 

[chr6]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
most companies are going to stop using computers soon and switch back to pencil/paper and typewriters

QFT

 

[SagaLore]

Don't get into it just to "work on computers". You need to be very determined to get to the top in some kind of specialty. I'd say, if you want to do computer science, GO FOR IT, but I would suggest aiming for the Master's degree.

 

[LS20]

you know what, everybody has been saying that CS is doomed since 2001. they say that, and yet grads continue to find (worthwhile) jobs.. and every career fair ive attended have always had recruiters looking ofr quality computer scientists.

as long as YOU stay Competitive -- ie outshine your classmates.. you should be okay. im not talking about grades, either... be sociable, be active, be involved.. join clubs, get to know ppl... as long as you take care of YOUR end, you'll do okay. if you sit 4 years through college and expect ppl to come begging at you because you have a 3.5..regardless of major.. you'll be in for a surprise.


1 point of note, though... the avg salary for CS seems relatively high for college grads.. but most of these jobs are out in california where the cost of living is substantially higher .. but thats an aside. if you want to study CS, go ahead and do it

 

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats

Originally posted by: SampSon
I unfortunatly got my degree in CS. I hate programming for the most part, and I'm very sick of IT work in general.

I left the IT/programming market, never to return.

Good luck with your career, if you're good in something you can always make money, no matter how "flooded" the market is.

Out of curiousity, what field are you in now?

Residential/small commercial property appraising. I'm also an agent.
I also do quite a bit of expert witness court testimony.

I still do IT work on the side and maintain the network and all that jazz for the group of associates I work with.

 

[Imdmn04]

The conceptulization, user requirement analysis, design and prototyping from the waterfall model cannot really be outsourced. Implementation, meaning, acutally writing the code, can be.

Anything that requires interactions with clients or users cannot be outsourced, because clients would raise hell if they had to talk to some indian that they can barely understand. Usually nowadays, the Systems Analyst go on site and and perform evaluations and the user requirement analysis, come up with the technical specification and design, and pass it off to Indians to code.

So if you play your cards right, you won't be outsourced, even in IT.