The Chevy Volt is just another hybrid?

[LTC8K6]

The stunning thing about that statement is what the fuel economy would be without the engine assist... 10-15% lower than the already unimpressive numbers...

 

[Ktulu]

The commenters have it covered. That doesn't clear much up at all.

Meh, typical GM bashers...........

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, GM just used semantics didn't they? It's not a fixed gear ratio...

 

[jaydee]

Well, GM just used semantics didn't they? It's not a fixed gear ratio...

Did AMD use semantics in their roadmap when they showed bulldozer being socket-AM3 in their roadmap, then later backing off saying it will actually be AM3+ ? Did you jump all over AMD as liars when that news broke a month or two ago?

 

[jhu]

As far as the cost vs savings go, there's nothing you can say about the Volt that does not apply to any other hybrid out there.

Except for the fact that the cheapest hybrid out there is less than half the cost of the Volt! For someone who drives 15k-20k/year and switches over to a Honda Insight or Toyota Prius will see a net savings after a few years (at least less than 10 years). For the Volt, it's going to take a lot longer.

With regard to the cost of the Volt, there is at least one thing going against it (two if you live in California). At $41k, the people who have the funds to buy this thing will probably be subject to AMT. Unfortunately, the $7500 federal tax credit cannot be taken if you're subject to AMT. If you live in California, there's also a $5k electric vehicle rebate that the Volt doesn't qualify for but really should.

 

[LTC8K6]

Did AMD use semantics in their roadmap when they showed bulldozer being socket-AM3 in their roadmap, then later backing off saying it will actually be AM3+ ? Did you jump all over AMD as liars when that news broke a month or two ago?

I don't even know what bulldozer or a socket AM3 is...

 

[desy]

Again, the goal wasn't the cheapest hybrid car out there.
Its electric, way cheaper than a Tesla it was also never intended as a volume car for cheapskates and never will be. Batteries have to come down in price and up in density and electrical properties before ANY electric car is viable.
Even the Leaf you don't 'own' the batteries you have to lease them and pay Nissan a montly fee on top of your 30G purchase price and pathetic range

 

[JCH13]

This is why, as an engineer, I make every effort to not promise anything until the design and development processes are complete. Some unforeseeable complication may come up on the future, and although you adjust your design to compensate for it, some people just won't let it go. I bet it went something like this:

Engineer: Right now we're developing a series hybrid drivetrain that we hope to use in the Volt. We hope improve efficiency over a parallel drivetrain.
Press: GM to make amazing new drivetrain! Better than Prius!
Engineer: That's not what I --
Press: GM claims the Volt is so amazing it will revolutionize the auto industry!
Engineer: I never said anyth--
Press: Volt better than prius! Sure it's more expensive, but you get a puppy!
Engineer: Well, the series hybrid didn't work out in time for our launch date, good thing we co-developed a parallel hybrid power-train so the car can still be released instead of scrapping the model line.
Press: GM is nothing but a bunch of lying sacks of shit!
Engineer: Goddammit... Also, we're out of puppies.
Press: OMG NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!1!!!1!!!!1!

 

[jaydee]

Except for the fact that the cheapest hybrid out there is less than half the cost of the Volt! For someone who drives 15k-20k/year and switches over to a Honda Insight or Toyota Prius will see a net savings after a few years (at least less than 10 years). For the Volt, it's going to take a lot longer.

With regard to the cost of the Volt, there is at least one thing going against it (two if you live in California). At $41k, the people who have the funds to buy this thing will probably be subject to AMT. Unfortunately, the $7500 federal tax credit cannot be taken if you're subject to AMT. If you live in California, there's also a $5k electric vehicle rebate that the Volt doesn't qualify for but really should.

I did some quick math:

The Prius starts at $22,800, @50 MPG average.
The closest equivalent car is the Corolla, which starts at $15,450, @31 MPG average.

Based on that, the "breakeven" point is 199,880 miles, which does fall under your criteria of 20k miles/year for less than 10 years (by a couple days). I'll grant you that.

The Volt is a bit harder to compute due to different states tax credits, how far a person drives on just battery, etc. Then you have to consider how well equipped the Volt is compared to whatever vehicle you're comparing it to (it's loaded with standard technology like a Cadillac). And it handles exceptionally due to it's centered weight distrobution. And just like everything else new and exciting, there's a premium to be an early adopter. Hybrids aren't new anymore, EV's and extended-range EV's are new.

The bottom line is you're not buying this car on economics, nor do you buy any other hybrid. Someone did an article a year or two ago and the most economical car to own is actually a Chevy Aveo (this took into account not only transaction price and gas mileage, but also insurance rates, average maintenance costs, etc.)

 

[LTC8K6]

You don't buy or reject an individual car in isolation just based on economics, but people do compare cars and cost of ownership, etc.

It's in these comparisons that the Volt suffers.

All cars are basically money pits.

Early adopters are going to buy the first years 10K production regardless because it'll be cool to own a Volt and they aren't concerned with comparisons to other cars.

Your average Joe will be comparing, I'd think.

There is also the cost of installing a 220V charging station, which is around $2k, and required by electrical codes here in the US. I believe a portion of that is also subsidized.

 

[Zargon]

I don't even know what bulldozer or a socket AM3 is...

then you are a tard fanboi based on that statement and your sig, and you should just GTFO of AT

 

[desy]

Still not seeing the problem
If you stay within the estimated electric range and sub 70 mph, which I do all the time, I can drive it every day forever and never have to put in gasoline
Sounds like an electric car to me
I also can charge it up with 110 and not have 220 wired if I am patient enough to wait overnight for it to charge

 

[LTC8K6]

then you are a tard fanboi based on that statement and your sig, and you should just GTFO of AT

My sig was generated a very long time ago during the P4/Athlon wars...

Last computer I built was a Prescott 3.0, I believe.

I have no idea what any of the new processors or sockets are.

I dropped out of that war a long time ago.

The "Don't be a moron" line was a crack at AMD fanbois. I was Intel all the way back then.

 

[PricklyPete]

Still not seeing the problem
If you stay within the estimated electric range and sub 70 mph, which I do all the time, I can drive it every day forever and never have to put in gasoline
Sounds like an electric car to me
I also can charge it up with 110 and not have 220 wired if I am patient enough to wait overnight for it to charge

Actually, from what I'm reading, it seems that as long as the battery has a charge (well above the systems artificially set minimum), then it will not use the gas engine regardless of speed. Once the battery is "depleted" and the gas engine is already running to provide charge, it will engage the gas engine directly to provide some of the power when going above 70mph.

So as long as you never drive beyond the 40 mile battery limit, you should not have to use the engine at all*.

* It appears that the gas engine runs on a maintenance cycle from time to time to ensure that gas does not sit in the car for extended periods of time...so eventually you will have to fill up regardless.

 

[desy]

So I just don't fill the tank then

 

[Zargon]

My sig was generated a very long time ago during the P4/Athlon wars...

Last computer I built was a Prescott 3.0, I believe.

I have no idea what any of the new processors or sockets are.

I dropped out of that war a long time ago.

The "Don't be a moron" line was a crack at AMD fanbois. I was Intel all the way back then.

I would go ahead and change the sig then

 

[LTC8K6]

Still not seeing the problem
If you stay within the estimated electric range and sub 70 mph, which I do all the time, I can drive it every day forever and never have to put in gasoline
Sounds like an electric car to me
I also can charge it up with 110 and not have 220 wired if I am patient enough to wait overnight for it to charge

In the US we also have a 20A 120V plug and socket. It has one prong turned sideways. You could probably adapt that and get a considerably faster 120V charge.

 

[ShawnD1]

* It appears that the gas engine runs on a maintenance cycle from time to time to ensure that gas does not sit in the car for extended periods of time...so eventually you will have to fill up regardless.

Thank god. I left some gasoline in a little honda generator for about 5 years. You don't even want to know what that looks like. Took a while to clean all of that shit out.

In the US we also have a 20A 120V plug and socket. It has one prong turned sideways. You could probably adapt that and get a considerably faster 120V charge.

If you're a total bad ass, you could use one of the breakers for a dryer or oven. They're 240V and run 30A or 50A.

Here is the receptacle for a dryer.

 

[LTC8K6]

Really fast charging is hard on the batteries, though.

If you aren't going to worry about electrical codes, you can of course, rig up whatever you can get away with.

The 220V charging stations will be much safer, and the portable 120V cord will be adequate if you can afford to wait.

 

[Bignate603]

The stunning thing about that statement is what the fuel economy would be without the engine assist... 10-15% lower than the already unimpressive numbers...

After reading through explanation about how the gearbox works they don't get better efficiency because the gas engine is directly driving the wheels, they get the efficiency boost because of the effect that the gas engine has on the planetary gear set which adjusts the effective gear ratio between the large electric motor and the wheels.

They could have gotten the same effect while maintaining the engine completely isolated from the gearbox by having the genset use a dedicated generator for the genset but they chose to instead use a motor/generator that does double duty as a generator for the genset and a secondary motor. After reading through what they did it's actually very slick engineering. They were able to keep the main electric motor in its most efficient RPM without the added expense or weight of a transmission or additional dedicated electric motor.

 

[MikeMike]

After reading through explanation about how the gearbox works they don't get better efficiency because the gas engine is directly driving the wheels, they get the efficiency boost because of the effect that the gas engine has on the planetary gear set which adjusts the effective gear ratio between the large electric motor and the wheels.

They could have gotten the same effect while maintaining the engine completely isolated from the gearbox by having the genset use a dedicated generator for the genset but they chose to instead use a motor/generator that does double duty as a generator for the genset and a secondary motor. After reading through what they did it's actually very slick engineering. They were able to keep the main electric motor in its most efficient RPM without the added expense or weight of a transmission or additional dedicated electric motor.

what i have read is basically, all the engineers at GM are sitting going there "are you guys fucking shitting us? do you understand how fucking complex this system is, and the insane things we had to do to get such a fucking genius idea into this $40k electric-gas hybrid? FUCK"

 

[Bignate603]

what i have read is basically, all the engineers at GM are sitting going there "are you guys fucking shitting us? do you understand how fucking complex this system is, and the insane things we had to do to get such a fucking genius idea into this $40k electric-gas hybrid? FUCK"

I agree, and for everyone having a problem with this, it looks like even when the engine is physically connected to the gearbox the majority of its power still goes to the generator to create electricity. Like I said before, it's actually a pretty slick design. People are really making this out to be a bigger deal than it really is.

 

[/b/tard]

what i have read is basically, all the engineers at GM are sitting going there "are you guys fucking shitting us? do you understand how fucking complex this system is, and the insane things we had to do to get such a fucking genius idea into this $40k electric-gas hybrid? FUCK"

you're forgetting the whole trying to make a Prius plug-in hybrid without paying patent dues. if you read the articles on these shenanigans that gm was going through, you'd realize that gm was trying to remake the prius whilst avoiding paying for patents.. not to mention the fact that it gives the perception gm was doing something creative when all they were doing was reinventing an already decent product while charging twice as much and being poorly executed.

If you look at the design of the transmission, it's almost exactly the same as the Prius, but in order to get their own patents, they mixed things around. So yes, the engineers had quite a bit of ingenuity, for the task at hand, which was to avoid paying patent dues, However, to the perspective of the consumer, they utterly failed at outdoing the Prius whilst charging double the price....sounds typical for detroit.

why did we bail these idiots out again? Ford is what created detroit anyway and they needed no such bailout, seems like letting Chrysler and General Motors go under would have been for the best. Someone buys their names and assets, and rebuilds the companies without the pension liabilities and whatnot.

 

[ShawnD1]

the engineers had quite a bit of ingenuity, for the task at hand, which was to avoid paying patent dues, However, to the perspective of the consumer, they utterly failed at outdoing the Prius whilst charging double the price....sounds typical for detroit.

?
American cars typically cost less than Japanese cars. Sometimes it's quite a bit less.

 

[Bl0cks]

I don't care if its going to be a hybrid, I just wish I still looked like this.