The Bush Legacy

Bumrush99

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Jun 14, 2004
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20 years from now, people will remember two things about President Bush. The Iraq war and the right wing, activist Supreme Court that makes "liberal activist" judges look tame compared to their desire to overturn years of legal precedents to fulfill the presidents dreams of a moral majority that worships corporate interests. Everyone is raving mad about Bush and his low approval numbers, but at the end of the day his power will be judged by not what he did in office but how he reshaped the court. His father started the job and we can now say it has been completed.

Abortion laws will be overturned, this court has no problem making decisions based on political leanings. I'm not trying to argue that this court is any better or worse than the more liberal ones, nor can I even say I disagree with all their rulings, but the political ramifications of their activist leanings will have a huge impact on our system of government, one that may yield more power than our legislative branch.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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It was well known this would happen long before he was elected by that very court.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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I will wager any amount of money that the abortion ruling will never be touched.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
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Mar 20, 2000
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wouldn't today's decision be more like de-activist in comparison to the activist court of the 1960s/70s?
 

Bumrush99

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Jun 14, 2004
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Activism, when it comes to the courts, involves taking legal precedents that have been well established, and overturning them for political reasons.
Liberal courts did dominate the supreme court and court system for many decades, so depending on which side of the aisle you sit on, activism can be defined differently depending on your perspective.
 

Mursilis

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Mar 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Liberal courts did dominate the supreme court and court system for many decades, so depending on which side of the aisle you sit on, activism can be defined differently depending on your perspective.

Exactly. Which is why this thread is stupid.
 

Bumrush99

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Jun 14, 2004
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<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Mursilis
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Liberal courts did dominate the supreme court and court system for many decades, so depending on which side of the aisle you sit on, activism can be defined differently depending on your perspective.</end quote></div>

Exactly. Which is why this thread is stupid.</end quote></div>

Imagine if 20 years of scientific research led most reasonable people to conclude that the environment is facing dangerous perils, and the Supreme Court rules in favor of bolstering EPA standards, and re-affirms those decisions multiple times. Now we install a new majority in the court that looks at 20 years of ruling and decides that it doesn't serve corporate interests or their political tilt, how could you call that anything but activism? Is activism limited to liberals only? Is it conservative to disregard the constitution pertaining to illegal wiretaps or imprisonment, or is that the ultimate form of activism?

 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,561
4
0
I agree totally.
The real threat is in regards to the 'Unitary" executive policy support of the Bush appointees.
They are determined to give the President unbridled powers. And eventually this will be used to create a de facto fascist dictatorship.
Unless Democrats are elected to the Presidency for the next three or four Presidential terms.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
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Ironic to see leftists talking about activist judges, while dismissing prior complaints by righties about activist judges. I guess it all depends on whether you agree with the decision...doesnt it??
 

Bumrush99

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Jun 14, 2004
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Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Ironic to see leftists talking about activist judges, while dismissing prior complaints by righties about activist judges. I guess it all depends on whether you agree with the decision...doesnt it??

I'm not complaining about either.. But lets not try to paint a pretty picture of one ideology versus another. As far as I'm concerned the Supreme Court has become a political tool to advance specific ideological initiatives, and that is not what our founding fathers anticipated the court to be.... Or was it ;)

Does anyone have any historical reference as to why these judges were given lifetime appointments?
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
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Originally posted by: Bumrush99
20 years from now, people will remember two things about President Bush. The Iraq war and the right wing, activist Supreme Court that makes "liberal activist" judges look tame compared to their desire to overturn years of legal precedents to fulfill the presidents dreams of a moral majority that worships corporate interests. Everyone is raving mad about Bush and his low approval numbers, but at the end of the day his power will be judged by not what he did in office but how he reshaped the court. His father started the job and we can now say it has been completed.

Abortion laws will be overturned, this court has no problem making decisions based on political leanings. I'm not trying to argue that this court is any better or worse than the more liberal ones, nor can I even say I disagree with all their rulings, but the political ramifications of their activist leanings will have a huge impact on our system of government, one that may yield more power than our legislative branch.

Did you want to have a discussion or are you just venting in which case this thread is inane?
 

Bumrush99

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2004
3,334
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<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: dphantom
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Bumrush99
20 years from now, people will remember two things about President Bush. The Iraq war and the right wing, activist Supreme Court that makes "liberal activist" judges look tame compared to their desire to overturn years of legal precedents to fulfill the presidents dreams of a moral majority that worships corporate interests. Everyone is raving mad about Bush and his low approval numbers, but at the end of the day his power will be judged by not what he did in office but how he reshaped the court. His father started the job and we can now say it has been completed.

Abortion laws will be overturned, this court has no problem making decisions based on political leanings. I'm not trying to argue that this court is any better or worse than the more liberal ones, nor can I even say I disagree with all their rulings, but the political ramifications of their activist leanings will have a huge impact on our system of government, one that may yield more power than our legislative branch.</end quote></div>

Did you want to have a discussion or are you just venting in which case this thread is inane?</end quote></div>

How about you start by telling us what you think rather than making inane comments :D

Oh and by the way I agree with some of their recent rulings.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Bumrush99
..... The Iraq war and the right wing, activist Supreme Court that makes "liberal activist" judges look tame compared to their desire to overturn years of legal precedents ..........</end quote></div>

Please enumerate some precidents overturned by the current court.

Also, if you have any examples of this court creating or "finding" new rights in the penumbra of Contstitution, please list those.

TIA,

Fern
 

Bumrush99

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2004
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Originally posted by: Fern
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Bumrush99
..... The Iraq war and the right wing, activist Supreme Court that makes "liberal activist" judges look tame compared to their desire to overturn years of legal precedents ..........</end quote></div>

Please enumerate some precidents overturned by the current court.

Also, if you have any examples of this court creating or "finding" new rights in the penumbra of Contstitution, please list those.

TIA,

Fern

Link 1

The court struck down the 96-year-old rule that resale price maintenance agreements were an automatic, or per se, violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act. In its place, the court instructed judges considering such agreements for possible antitrust violations to apply a case-by-case approach, known as a ?rule of reason,? to assess their impact on competition.

The decision was the latest in a string of opinions this term to overturn Supreme Court precedents. It marked the latest in a line of Supreme Court victories for big businesses and antitrust defendants. And it was the latest of the court?s antitrust decisions in recent years to reject rules that had prohibited various marketing agreements between companies.

For what its worth

The Supreme Court hit the trifecta yesterday: Three cases involving the First Amendment. Three dismaying decisions by Chief Justice John Roberts?s new conservative majority.

Chief Justice Roberts and the four others in his ascendant bloc used the next-to-last decision day of this term to reopen the political system to a new flood of special-interest money, to weaken protection of student expression and to make it harder for citizens to challenge government violations of the separation of church and state. In the process, the reconfigured court extended its noxious habit of casting aside precedents without acknowledging it ? insincere judicial modesty scored by Justice Antonin Scalia in a concurring opinion.

First, campaign finance. Four years ago, a differently constituted court upheld sensible provisions of the McCain-Feingold Act designed to prevent corporations and labor unions from circumventing the ban on their spending in federal campaigns by bankrolling phony ?issue ads.? These ads purport to just educate voters about a policy issue, but are really aimed at a particular candidate.

The 2003 ruling correctly found that the bogus issue ads were the functional equivalent of campaign ads and upheld the Congressional restrictions on corporate and union money. Yet the Roberts court shifted course in response to sham issue ads run on radio and TV by a group called Wisconsin Right to Life with major funding from corporations opposed to Senator Russell Feingold, the Democrat who co-authored the act.

It opened a big new loophole in time to do mischief in the 2008 elections. The exact extent of the damage is unclear. But the four dissenters were correct in warning that the court?s hazy new standard for assessing these ads is bound to invite evasion and fresh public cynicism about big money and politics.

The decision contained a lot of pious language about protecting free speech. But magnifying the voice of wealthy corporations and unions over the voice of candidates and private citizens is hardly a free speech victory. Moreover, the professed devotion to the First Amendment did not extend to allowing taxpayers to challenge White House aid to faith-based organizations as a violation of church-state separation. The controlling opinion by Justice Samuel Alito offers a cockeyed reading of precedent and flimsy distinctions between executive branch initiatives and Congressionally authorized spending to deny private citizens standing to sue. That permits the White House to escape accountability when it improperly spends tax money for religious purposes.

Nor did the court?s concern for free speech extend to actually allowing free speech in the oddball case of an Alaska student who was suspended from high school in 2002 after he unfurled a banner reading ?Bong Hits 4 Jesus? while the Olympic torch passed. The ruling by Chief Justice Roberts said public officials did not violate the student?s rights by punishing him for words that promote a drug message at an off-campus event. This oblique reference to drugs hardly justifies such mangling of sound precedent and the First Amendment.

Here are several... Care to dispute how this court is overturning previous precedents or are you going to use the liberal bias clause to refute these arguments?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Just because a court makes a ruling you don't agree with doesn't mean that its "activist". That crap gets spewed out by the right every time they get an adverse ruling and I'd rather the left not follow their lead.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
wouldn't today's decision be more like de-activist in comparison to the activist court of the 1960s/70s?

Yes, school desegregation was such an activist decision :roll:
 

Bumrush99

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Jun 14, 2004
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Text

Another liberal hack job or some truth behind this?


WASHINGTON, June 20 ? No Supreme Court nominee could be confirmed these days without paying homage to the judicial doctrine of ?stare decisis,? Latin for ?to stand by things decided.? Yet experienced listeners have learned to take these professions of devotion to precedent ?cum grano salis,? Latin for ?with a grain of salt.?

Both Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. assured their Senate questioners at their confirmation hearings that they, too, respected precedent. So why were they on the majority side of a 5-to-4 decision last week declaring that a 45-year-old doctrine excusing people whose ?unique circumstances? prevented them from meeting court filing deadlines was now ?illegitimate??

It was the second time the Roberts court had overturned a precedent, and the first in a decision with a divided vote. It surely will not be the last.

The fact is that the court regularly revisits and reconsiders its precedents, as Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, the current chief justice?s former boss and mentor, once observed succinctly. ?Stare decisis is not an inexorable command,? he said in a 1991 opinion that included, in a page and a half of small type, a list of 33 precedents that the court had overturned in the previous 20 years.

So the question is not whether the Roberts court will overturn more precedents, but how often, by what standard and in what terms. As to which precedents will fall next, there are several plausible candidates as the court enters the final days of its term, including the 2003 decision that upheld advertising restrictions in the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law; a 1968 decision that let taxpayers go to federal court to challenge government policies as violating the separation of church and state; and an antitrust price-fixing case from 1911. (In an 8-to-0 decision last term, the court overturned a pair of antitrust precedents from the 1940s that were noticeably at odds with modern antitrust analysis.)

Sometimes the court overrules cases without actually saying so. Some argue that this is what happened in April, when a 5-to-4 majority upheld the federal Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act without making much effort to reconcile that ruling with a decision in 2000 that found a nearly identical Nebraska law unconstitutional.

As a technical matter, the new decision, Gonzales v. Carhart, left the earlier ruling still on the books, doing its overruling ?by stealth, without having the grace to admit that is what they were doing,? in the words of Ronald Dworkin, the legal philosopher, who wrote a highly critical appraisal of the new decision in The New York Review of Books last month. ?Justices Roberts and Alito had both declared their intention to respect precedent in their confirmation hearings, and no doubt they were reluctant to admit so soon how little those declarations were worth,? Professor Dworkin said from London in an e-mail message.

Abortion, of course, is a special case. The debate over whether the court should or could overturn Roe v. Wade has been going on so long and with such intensity that it tends to pre-empt any discussion of the subtleties of stare decisis.

Senator Arlen Specter, the Pennsylvania Republican and abortion-rights supporter who at the time was chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, pressed Chief Justice Roberts at his confirmation hearing to agree with him that Roe v. Wade was not just a precedent, but a ?super-duper precedent.?

Mr. Specter?s point was that because the court in 1992 had considered whether to overturn Roe but reaffirmed it instead, the 1973 precedent had acquired an inviolate status. His implication was that if Roe was just an ordinary precedent, it was as vulnerable as any other with which a new majority became disenchanted.

The nominee obviously knew exactly what Mr. Specter was driving at, but he gave away nothing. He acknowledged the historical accuracy of the senator?s chronology, but would not follow him to the land of ?super-duper? precedents.

When the court explicitly overturns precedent, it tends to offer a checklist of justifications: the precedent has eroded over time through disuse or disregard (this was the majority?s stated reason for discarding the ?unique circumstances? precedents in last week?s decision, Bowles v. Russell), or it has been a source of confusion in the law, or experience has proven it ?unworkable.?

But the real reason is usually that a changing court in changing times has come to see the question in a new light. In Bowers v. Hardwick in 1986, the Supreme Court dismissed as ?facetious? the notion that the Constitution offered protection for gay rights. Overturning that decision 17 years later, Justice Anthony M. Kennedy declared for the majority in Lawrence v. Texas: ?Bowers was not correct when it was decided, and it is not correct today.?

Still, the court will strive to provide an explanation, if only to avoid the kind of accusation that Justice Thurgood Marshall leveled at the majority when, taking advantage of two retirements, the court reversed course and by a vote of 5 to 4 made ?victim impact? testimony admissible in death penalty hearings.

?Power, not reason, is the new currency of this court?s decision making,? Justice Marshall declared on the final day of the court?s 1990 term. Two hours later, he announced his own retirement, his words still hanging in the air.
 

dphantom

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Jan 14, 2005
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Precedents should be respected, but not blindly followed if they are wrong. Dredd Scott was a precedent yet finally and thankfully overturned.
 

Bumrush99

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Jun 14, 2004
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Just because a court makes a ruling you don't agree with doesn't mean that its "activist". That crap gets spewed out by the right every time they get an adverse ruling and I'd rather the left not follow their lead.

I never said I disagreed with the rulings. Activism, when it comes to the courts has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with the decision. It involves courts taking precedents, which are used to create laws, and overturning them, especially in cases where multiple rulings have cemented the precedent. Both LIBERAL and CONSERVATIVE courts have exhibited political leanings that supersede precedents, which can only mean sweeping reforms if the current court stays in place, reforms that will overturn years of liberal leaning precedents that have been in place for many years
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
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Originally posted by: Bumrush99
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Ironic to see leftists talking about activist judges, while dismissing prior complaints by righties about activist judges. I guess it all depends on whether you agree with the decision...doesnt it??</end quote></div>

I'm not complaining about either.. But lets not try to paint a pretty picture of one ideology versus another. As far as I'm concerned the Supreme Court has become a political tool to advance specific ideological initiatives, and that is not what our founding fathers anticipated the court to be.... Or was it ;)

Does anyone have any historical reference as to why these judges were given lifetime appointments?

Sometimes I wonder if this environment hasnt always existed, and what has changed is that our news isnt sanitized like it used to. The nation used to get it's national news almost exclusively from the evening news, which was operated in a very professional, albeit leftist manner. Anyone think JFK would have been so popular in todays day and age? That has been replaced by news organizations and groups who overtly try to push a political philosophy through articles they try to pass off as news. The mainstream news has become a tool through which various organizations fight for attention, and it has driven a sharp divide in the populace along ideological lines. I actually think we were better off when we were more ignorant of all the shenanigans that went on in Washington. I would almost like to see all political commentary and opinion pieces dissappear, though I certainly wouldnt want that done via legislation, alluding back to the fairness doctrine.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: ElFenix
wouldn't today's decision be more like de-activist in comparison to the activist court of the 1960s/70s?</end quote></div>

Yes, school desegregation was such an activist decision :roll:

no, but forced busing sure as hell was.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: ElFenix
wouldn't today's decision be more like de-activist in comparison to the activist court of the 1960s/70s?</end quote></div>

Yes, school desegregation was such an activist decision :roll:
</end quote></div>

no, but forced busing sure as hell was.

I know it hurts you to see black kids leave the ghetto.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
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Activism isn't bad per se. Our founders were activists when they created a new nation, the Warren court was activitist when it improved the legal system, such as informing all suspects of their rights.

Activist Judge is a political phrase, because most people are conditioned to react negatively to it, meaning that the phrase can be used to get people to oppose the judge without any consideration of the specific change or its reason.

We're in an era of increasing conflict between the citzenry's interests (I can't exactly say 'the citizenry', because so many of them have been brainwashed into wanting the harmful changes), and other interests, especially corporate and authoritarian anti-democratic interests.

Some groups are trying to radically change the US into a sort of Christian theocracy; there's a specific group trying to get rid of the nation's heritage of its legal system regarding the long history of Supreme Court decisions to move it to a radical new right-wing movement. As with most such revolutionary movements, most of society is unaware of it and caught like deer in the headlights when faced with this focused group of activists.

That group is called The Federalist Society.

Like the mafia, or other organized political groups, it's an organization which grows by establishing networking and rewards for its loyal members, placing them in higher and higher positions where they can reward loyal members more and more. Their opposition doesn't stand a chance, it's the civil servants who try to be 'neutral' and simply serve the public interest.

It's the answer to the question, "how do the powerful interests overcome the legal system designed to protect the public from them?"

All these 5-4 decisions, virtually always with the same 5 radical rightists against the 4 more traditional justices, I find sickening.

We've had the court dominated by the powerful interests before, a bit over a century ago, when we got some of the most atrocious, reviled rulings in our nation's history (including the corruption of the amendment to protect former slaves into the granting of rights to corporations that harm the public interest, treating them as 'people'.)

What's even more sad is how indoctrinated the citizens are who are falling for this agenda.

Make no mistake, there's a radical group of activists out to radicalize our judicial system in The Federalist Society; and it's not the good activism.