The Bible vs. The Koran on various issues of Man.

[Hammer]

I would doubt that. I can't imagine the majority of Arabs are any different the majority of Americans, Russians, or Chinese. In other words, the don't give a f*ck about what is happening outside their daily lives. They go about their business and you never hear from them. When you ask where the protestors for peace are, they are at home or at work just like normal people are.



<< I dont think I'm generalizing when I say a majority of Arabs in the Arab dominated world support attacks on Judism and Chrstianity. >>

 

[justint]

Texmaster,
You are greviously misinformed about the extent of the following of Wahhabism in the Islamic world. If you would look at another part of that PBS Page it would state of Wahhabism that


... You say totally different. Why totally different? ...

It's intolerant toward other Muslims who are not Salafis. You can see a book that is printed [by] a branch of Imam Imam Muhammad Ibn Saud University in Washington area, and they printed this book where they say that 95 percent of Muslims are claimant to Islam, ... [that] they are not called Muslims. They are claimant to Islam, or claim to be Muslims.


So the official religion of Saudi Arabia says that 95 percent of people who say they're Islamic are just claiming to be Islamic?

Exactly. This is what is reflected in the textbook, and the books that [are] printed by the government. ...

Other part of PBS page

Wahhabism is basically only widely followed in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan (and then only by the Taliban), some small schools in Pakistan, and Chechyna. Sense a pattern? It starts out in Saudi Arabia, and then is trying to expand itself to places where conflict and poverty give it the opportunity to advance it's fundamentalist non-mainstream brand of Islam on the other Muslims. Wahhabism and it's intolerance and encouragement of violence is not representative of the religious or cultural beliefs of most Muslism or "Arabs" since Tex seems to think Muslim=Arab. It is a minority, and a dangerous sub-culture.

 

[Texmaster]

<< I would doubt that. I can't imagine the majority of Arabs are any different the majority of Americans, Russians, or Chinese. In other words, the don't give a f*ck about what is happening outside their daily lives. They go about their business and you never hear from them. When you ask where the protestors for peace are, they are at home or at work just like normal people are. >>



Its great to think that but I'm not going to put my western values and superimpose them on a people I don't know.

All I want is some evidence to the contrary of the negativity. Thats all I want.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Texmaster,
You are greviously misinformed about the extent of the following of Wahhabism in the Islamic world. If you would look at another part of that PBS Page it would state of Wahhabism that


... You say totally different. Why totally different? ...

It's intolerant toward other Muslims who are not Salafis. You can see a book that is printed [by] a branch of Imam Imam Muhammad Ibn Saud University in Washington area, and they printed this book where they say that 95 percent of Muslims are claimant to Islam, ... [that] they are not called Muslims. They are claimant to Islam, or claim to be Muslims.


So the official religion of Saudi Arabia says that 95 percent of people who say they're Islamic are just claiming to be Islamic?

Exactly. This is what is reflected in the textbook, and the books that [are] printed by the government. ...

Other part of PBS page

Wahhabism is basically only widely followd in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan (and then only by the Taliban), some small schools in Pakistan, and Chechyna. Sense a pattern? It starts out in Saudi Arabia, and then is trying to expand itself to places where conflict and poverty give it the opportunity to advance it's fundamentalist non-mainstream brand of Islam on the other Muslims. >>




Who do you think funds the Islamic schools in the Arab world?

When you find that answer, come back.

 

[Hammer]

justint is right. Turkey is made up primarily of Turks with a Kurdish minority I believe. Iran is mostly Persians. Neither one is an Arab state.

 

[Texmaster]

<< justint is right. Turkey is made up primarily of Turks with a Kurdish minority I believe. Iran is mostly Persians. Neither one is an Arab state. >>



But its not the majority of muslims and that has been the central theme here.

In all reality in the world as a whole, I dont believe that the majority of Muslims are hate filled people. I think most are simply complacent or too simple minded to care where they live. (thats right no mistype here)

But all I see and read is negative. There have been a few stories out there that have been positive.

The Iranian cabnet member story comes to mind posted here a few days ago. I can't believe no one has brought that up yet. I was expecting it.

But reality needs more than just a few tiny bits of light to develop a sturdy conlcusion.

 

[justint]

Tex,
I am not arguing with the fact that Saudi Arabia and it's Wahhabism branch of Islam fund the Islamic schools. However, you were arguing that this view of Islam was the dominant one. This is clearly not true. 95% of Muslims do not follow this view. Can you at least admit that? That's by your own source???


Also, the Madrasas are not all over the Arab world. For one thing, the Authoritarian dictatorships that run most Arab countries would never allow it as it would lead to a direct threat to thier power. Egypt spent quite a long time in the 1990's performing a brutal, bloody, and efficient crackdown on any attempt to bring that sort of thing into Egypt. Similar actions were taken in Syria, and even Iraq as our old buddy Saddam is not a big fan of independant political forces in his country. The Madrasas are basically limited to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan if you are talking about any significant numbers.

We are talking about a small but vocal minority here. Stop generalizing about things of which you have little understanding.

Justin

 

[justint]

Okay Texmaster. Now I am really confused. You admit that most of what you have seen and heard has been negative, but then you go on this forum constantly and list off every negative thing you hear and see with no attempt to do more in depth analysis or present and alternate view. I don't understand. Stop the Monkeys....Please stop the monkeys.

By your logic, the press and media should be going out of its way to present positive stories about Islam.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Tex,
I am not arguing with the fact that Saudi Arabia and it's Wahhabism branch of Islam fund the Islamic schools. However, you were arguing that this view of Islam was the dominant one. This is clearly not true. 95% of Muslims do not follow this view. Can you at least admit that? That's by your own source???


Also, the Madrasas are not all over the Arab world. For one thing, the Authoritarian dictatorships that run most Arab countries would never allow it as it would lead to a direct threat to thier power. Egypt spent quite a long time in the 1990's performing a brutal, bloody, and efficient crackdown on any attempt to bring that sort of thing into Egypt. Similar actions were taken in Syria, and even Iraq as our old buddy Saddam is not a big fan of independant political forces in his country. The Madrasas are basically limited to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan if you are talking about any significant numbers.

We are talking about a small but vocal minority here. Stop generalizing about things of which you have little understanding.

Justin >>



Very good Someone FINALLY did it.

Nicely done. I hope everyone reads your post.

Don't get on my bad side Justin. You just did something no one else had done to this point.

I was speaking with the information available to the masses. You went furthur be proud of that

I will caution you however that just because Muslims do not claim to be following Wahabism does not mean they do not follow many of the hate filled practices associated with it.

And it doesn't change who is funding the schools around the Arab world. That is a powerful point and something we need to be aware of.

 

[Hammer]

It's not western values, its human nature. You could apply to ancient rome if you wanted to.



<< Its great to think that but I'm not going to put my western values and superimpose them on a people I don't know.

All I want is some evidence to the contrary of the negativity. Thats all I want. >>

 

[Texmaster]

<< It's not western values, its human nature. You could apply to ancient rome if you wanted to. >>




I disagree. If anything humanity has shown since the beginnning is that it is warlike in its most primitive form and the vast majority of the Arab coutnries are some of the poorest in the world.

Its easy to be peaceful when you are fat and happy in the Western World.


Thanks for the debates guys.

 

[Hammer]

It's human nature to selfish and self-centered, no matter what you economic status is. We're not talking about nations here, I'm talking about the average guy who just lives his life.



<< I disagree. If anything humanity has shown since the beginnning is that it is warlike in its most primitive form and the vast majority of the Arab coutnries are some of the poorest in the world.

Its easy to be peaceful when you are fat and happy in the Western World.
>>

 

[yllus]

Finally, something I can address literally. By the way, I'd like to see your source of these quotes...



<< Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191) >>

Let's take a quick peek at the paragraph before 191.
Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (2-190)

Your paragraph, 2-191, is actually written as:
And slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (2-191)

Context? Prophet Muhammed giving instructions to the Muslims with him on what to do when they were driven out of their homeland.


<< Even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). >>

See the first page for my 3rd response in this thread. It covers the breadth of quotes from chapter 9.


<< It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (Q. 4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the court (Q. 2:282). >>

Don't you love how it obviously stitches together quotes from one chapter to another?

Let's take a look at 4-7 which is a bit higher up in that chapter.
Unto the men (of a family) belongeth a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, and unto the women a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, whether it be little or much - a legal share. (4-7)

Now, to 2-282. It's a huge paragraph with only this to mention about women:
And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand), then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember. And the witnesses must not refust when they are summoned.

Their witness is not admissible in the court? Blatantly false. Imbeciles? I guess you could weasel that reasoning out of the paragraph, though the reasoning of Islam is usually men judge men and women judge women. See my first few responses for examples of that.

Basically...the web pages out there are all full of crap. You can infer just about anything from any book and taking the worst possible read out of it is what's being done.

 

[justint]

Texmaster,
What have I done FINALLY that no one else has done?? I don't get that.



Also, you state that just because most Muslims don't follow a hateful and potentially violent form of Islam that doesn't mean that they don't all hate anyway? WTF?????? Could I also say that just because most Catholic priests have never advocated sex with children, that doesn't mean all the rest of them don't want to do it too???? That doesn't make any sense.

As to your comment about speaking from the information available to the masses. I do agree that most people have neither the inclination nor the ability to critically analyze the information they are bombarded with.

You an the other hand are not an idiot. You seem to be someone who spends a great time analyzing a wide variety of issues based on your postings to this forum where I have lurked for quite some time.

However, I find it curious that when you presented the PBS site as demonstrating the evil and pre-dominance of Wahhabism, you conveniently made no mention of the other section of that very site which totally invalidated your argument about the majority of Mulims following that school of thought. I am assuminng you read the whole article being the intelligent person you are. You do not seem to simply be a victim of mis-information but an advocate of a viewpoint based on an agenda which is fine and should be encouraged in a FORUM. But please admit that instead of trying to present what you say as unvarnished, unbiased facts.

Next time, you could list a bunch of sites and say "Here are some facts that I have chosen to back up my argument" rather than here
are the facts.

I can dispute your facts all day and it might make sense, but you got me I lack the capacity to dispute whatever paranoia, predjudice, and ignorance you may hold. Mea Culpa. I won't argue with Texmaster anymore. Give me a break. I too am guilty of allowing my own predjudices to color my statements, but I try not to argue with others unless it is based on fact and reason.

As to the fact that the Saudis fund the schools. I agree that is true, the schools are bad, they need reforms or to be eliminated. What do you want me to say? How is that a particularly powerful fact? How does that expand your argument? It seems your evidence and statements have been narrowed from broad generalizations about Muslims as a whole to this one FACT.


Also, are you threatening me with some sort of forum grudge for "getting on your bad side"??? WTF????

I hope I am totally off base. Can someone please explain Texmaster to me?????

 

[Hammer]

lol justint, I think the bad side thing was a joke

 

[justint]

Ok then. But what was it that I FINALLY did to Texmaster?? Prove him wrong?

I didn't realize that proving each other right and wrong was the point of a discussion forum. I thought this was debate club, oh no....
so lost, flashbacks of high school. Please Mr. Henderson I don't want to look at the flash cards any more............