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The Bible says two things (I dont want this to turn into a bash thread)

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Spoooon

Lifer
Mar 3, 2000
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You can't use the Bible to prove or disprove anything. Over the years, it's been rewritten and altered that anything that you would use as fact is nothing more than supposition. Who knows what's true or what isn't? If you want to believe, fine. If you don't want to, that's fine too. I think it's a waste of time arguing back and forth using the same source as supporting evidence in your arguements.
 

kami

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
17,627
4
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<< Who knows what's true or what isn't? If you want to believe, fine. If you don't want to, that's fine too. I think it's a waste of time arguing back and forth using the same source as supporting evidence in your arguements. >>


amen. Now all of you stop your useless bickering :)
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,020
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&quot;I dont want this to turn into a bash thread&quot;

&quot;Nice god some people have.&quot;


What an ASS!

Well, if anybody seriously wnats to know what two things the Bible does say:
  1. There is life after death.
  2. There is no more need to make sacrifices.
Now go crawl back under your troll rock dipshit!
 

eia430

Senior member
Sep 7, 2000
369
0
0
Athanasius, you do make a good point that I agree with. It really is hard to translate meaning from one language to another without loosing a good part of it's information. But why is this fact not brought up when something is &quot;proved&quot; with a Bible? why is this discrepancy not existant then? Only when the bible appears flawed does this come up. This works both ways, you can also be unsure which information or meaning is lost when you read ANY (100%) translated portions of the bible.

I guess what is bugging me is this policy of leaving common sense at the door. I get this phrase thrown at me a lot &quot;it's based on faith&quot; or &quot;it is beyond your comprehension&quot;. It almost seems that christians know the bible will not feel right unless you leave common sense at the door before you enter.

Just to let you know... yes I believe in God, yes my life is led in a very christian way. I just don't believe that the bible has been unscathed by man. Men have done a bang up job turning the church into an abomination that serves the devil more than God, I believe the same has happened to the bible. Just look at history and all the innocents killed in the name of the church.

My stance will not change because of this thread and I belive neither will yours. I understand your point of view and I believe you understand mine. Let's just both live christian lives as best we can. I'll just be extra weary of pot-holes in the road, and you can keep your blindfold on.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
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Ornery

Namecallings, tish tish.

What the bible also sais that we are on earth as punishment for killing Jesus. So earth is just one big bad prison to your god. God is not a good guy you know, people have killed millions just in his name, if God was good then he wouldnt let that happen now would he?
 

Engine

Senior member
Oct 11, 1999
519
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>>What the bible also sais that we are on earth as punishment for killing Jesus.

Uh.... what? A statement as asinine as that should usually have a quote to go with it. The entire reason Jesus came down was so that he could die. That was God's plan from the beginning. If you have a quote that says otherwise, please show us.
 

pen^2

Banned
Apr 1, 2000
2,845
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czar, bad move..... you dont wanna make an argument on religion... they will try to make sense out of nonsense. its like talking to a wall, dontcha know? i say let em go to their chruches and worship all they want and make all the donation they want..... none of my buisness.
 

~zonker~

Golden Member
Jan 23, 2000
1,493
0
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How to read the Bible

A very scholarly approach to reading scripture that takes into account the various inconsistencies. They do exist. Once you are aware of them I would think a rational person would try and understand them before using them to abondon the idea of God.

Czar, are you trying to justify your denial of God or trying to understand man's realtionship with God? Even if you don't accept or believe in God, reading the Bible can inform you of many things about human nature and the history of this God.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
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I´m not trying to justify anything, I´m just pointing this out, I know that many people who dont read the bible and dont belive in god and still ike to have a good debate about religion, so this is good resource.

I dont see why the bible says anything more about human nature than any other 2000 year old religous book, I could just the same read the koran.
 

Athanasius

Senior member
Nov 16, 1999
975
0
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eia430:

I know you believe in God. Nor have I questioned your integrity. If you read my thread carefully, I tried to avoid broad generalizations. I believe that there are passages in the Bible that are difficult to understand and perhaps even more challenging to reconcile to the overall message that the Bible seems to be trying to drive home. I just think it is a tragic abuse of common sense when an individual casts aside the whole Bible based on something like the (non-existant) conflict between Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 2:18-19.

As far as this statement:


<< Athanasius, you do make a good point that I agree with. It really is hard to translate meaning from one language to another without loosing a good part of it's information. But why is this fact not brought up when something is &quot;proved&quot; with a Bible? why is this discrepancy not existant then? Only when the bible appears flawed does this come up. This works both ways, you can also be unsure which information or meaning is lost when you read ANY (100%) translated portions of the bible. >>



Your point is well taken when some excessive fundie is guilty of using English to interpret/abuse the original Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic. And that happens often enough. But one doesn't need to know Hebrew or Greek to understand the basic message of the Bible. Many modern translations are academically excellent and accurate renderings from the original languages into the modern English. Even in the example of Genesis 2, I mentioned that the NIV adds one English word that goes a long way towards clearing up an apparent contradiction.

Still, in difficult passages(which is a small minority of the biblical text), or apparent contradictions that are so obvious that the original writers would have had to have been either flippant or blind to have not noticed it, of course it would be wise to consider the original culture and language. That is simply common sense. If I was interpreting Homer's Iliad, or writngs from Lao-Tse, or any other foreign work, and I ran across a blatantly illogical contradiction that defied common sense and reduced the composers of respected literature to inane fools, I hope I would think it wise to consider the possibility that perhaps I need to do more research before tossing out the baby with the bathwater.

Now can I go back to putting my blindfold on? :)
 

~zonker~

Golden Member
Jan 23, 2000
1,493
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An discussion that involves only an athiest and a literalist view of the Bible will not lead to anything thing that resembles intellect or understanding. There are many writings that a person could read to gain insight on human nature and the history of man's realtionship to a divine being. The Bible just happens to be one of the most influential books in the history of humanity.

Trying to understand it is not an excersize in futility. Using it as a weapon or fodder for classifying peoples and creating strife is at best an excersize in ignorance.
 

KidViciou$

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,998
0
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dont know if this was asked, but what happened to all the people who died before jesus came about?
 

Spoooon

Lifer
Mar 3, 2000
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I think someone went to Hell and brought them to Heaven or something. I'm not too clear on Bible stuff. What I am clear on is the fact that people like to waste their time and get all bent out of shape arguing about something that doesn't really matter. No one is going to convince someone else to either believe or disbelieve. People abandon or find God through circumstance, not logic. Remember Pascal's Wager?
 

KidViciou$

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,998
0
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so, people had to suffer for thousands of years for no reason at all except for the fact that christ wasnt born yet? and if the christian god created humans, didnt they go to hell, because christ wasnt born yet?

forgive me if i sound sarcastic, i am interested in the beliefs of religions for the simple reason of different views. i for one dont believe that you need to go to church or temple for religion. i actually try to NOT go to the temple for the reason that it is a business. just like the church, i believe the saying that god is with the poor, i sure hope god is.

also, my beliefs dont always have to make sense even to myself, i feel that religion is a personal matter, and therefore should be &quot;customized&quot; to beliefs of an individual. but i am officially a hindu. i follow beliefs from all religions, muslim, christianity, judiaism, buddhism....

i envy those who voluntarily live a life of poverty, those are the people i feel are holy (buddhist monks)
 

Spoooon

Lifer
Mar 3, 2000
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Not from the Bible, but from Dante's Inferno:

&quot;O ornament of wisdom and of art,
what souls are these whose merit lights their way
even in Hell. What joy sets them apart?&quot;

And he to me: &quot;The signature of honor
they left on earth is recognized in Heaven
and wins them ease in Hell out of God's favor.&quot;


So, basically they weren't punished or anything. Their only pain is lack of hope. However, I'm not clear on biblical source for any of this.
 

Spoooon

Lifer
Mar 3, 2000
11,562
201
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They couldn't go to heaven because they didn't know God, yes. And, apparently, it's too late once you're in hell. Atleast they don't really suffer. ;) However, this is from Dante's Inferno, not the Bible. And I am no theologian.

One thing that I do have a beef with is that even if you don't believe in God, you still go to hell. Why not simply oblivion? Just cease to exist? Why do I get punished for something that I want no part of either way?

Me, I don't believe in God because of the many injustices and inequaties that I see every day. Bad people prosper and good people suffer. That's just not right. Though, I understand the religious side of it: that we're not supposed to be concerned with earthly things. Tell that to the single mom that works two jobs to feed her family. Or to someone that has just become the victim of a brutal crime. &quot;Don't worry about the rape sweetheart, once you're in heaven, everything will be okay. We might not catch that guy, but atleast when he dies, he'll go to hell. Unless he repents all his sins and accepts God as his savior.&quot; Argh!
 

Raspewtin

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 1999
3,634
0
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<< One thing that I do have a beef with is that even if you don't believe in God, you still go to hell. Why not simply oblivion? >>



In the example of Christiany, I believe the reason is that most people hate going to church and going through all the cr@p and guilt associated with it. They would get annoyed that you didn't have to suffer every Sunday, so naturally you should go to hell and suffer for the rest of time.

This is because going to church feels like you're suffering with no end (since time seems to slow down during a very boring mass). Also you didn't have the constant guilt and weight of being a worthless sinner, who's sole redeeming quality is that Jesus is capable of saving you if he so chooses. So you see, everyone goes to hell; the difference is that some have been given small amounts of it weekly so as to adjust.
 

Spoooon

Lifer
Mar 3, 2000
11,562
201
106
Raspwetin, roflmao

Well, I did suffer a little bit when I was younger (Catholic Church, I mostly slept so I guess it doesn't count). And I went to a Baptist church a few times in recent memory. I think that that experiance should count double toward my Hell quota! ;)
 

Regine

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2000
3,668
0
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Fresh from the new Onion: This is great!!! :p

God Wondering Whatever Happened To That Planet Where He Made All Those Monkeys

HEAVEN-- Reminiscing Monday, God wondered aloud what happened to &quot;that one planet I made, like, four and a half billion years ago, the one with all the monkeys.&quot; &quot;Man, I haven't thought about that planet in forever,&quot; God said. &quot;I have no idea why it suddenly popped into My head. I remember it was really crude, one of My weaker early efforts, back when I was experimenting with the oxygen atmospheres and those ridiculous carbon-based lifeforms. And I was on that whole upper-primate kick. Huh.&quot; God said He couldn't remember the planet's name but was pretty sure it was &quot;something like Ursh or Orth or maybe Ert.&quot;

 

Regine

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2000
3,668
0
0
Yeah, sometimes I hear voices too, and then I realize that I should probably go to bed because I need some serious sleep ;)
 

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