The best word in politics is "Justice"

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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350
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"Justice". It's used a lot by various groups in politics - and used correctly, it's the best word in politics and one to keep in mind for any political issue, is it just.

It's especially popular on the 'populist left' against concentrated powers - and in modern times seems more often mocked by the far right than supported when they do so.

Consider an example from history that involves 'justice': the civil war was fought not primarily over slavery, but over the South feeling that they were being abused by the North in a variety of policies - the idea that in our system, there can be a 'tyranny of the majority' so if the South lost votes, it had zero protection from exploitation by the rest of the country. While it had constitutional rights, it could have all kinds of exploitation, especially in economic policy. It felt a lack of justice as things were.

Ironically, they were practicing a great injustice to slaves. Where was their justice? After centuries, it was soon to come, in part - as it continues to improve now.

But just earlier, the United States had stolen of 2/3 of Mexico, in a war Ulysses Grant called "one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation. It was an instance of a republic following the bad example of European monarchies, in not considering justice in their desire to acquire additional territory." It was the injustice of this war that was the basis for 'Walden Pond', taught in schools about civil disobedience against injustice.

The US was also in the middle of injustice to Native Americans - even if a case could be made for expanding on the land they were on, there was clearly injustice.

The United States itself had formed over feeling a lack of justice at the hands of the rich ruling class of England, who wanted the colonies to be an economic engine whose profits came to them, a ruling class who came to have a massive global empire that killed millions and oppressed millions more in the name of the profits for themselves.

The very system we created was designed to increase justice, by giving 'the people' the power of the vote to use against such an oppressive class.

The best things politically involve increasing justice. There are any number of injustices large and small, that politics done well can reduce.

At one basic level, if one man robs another, that's an injustice, and where the name 'criminal justice' comes from, about addressing that type of wrong.

But it's not the only type of injustice. If a financial company can defraud or oppress, there can be injustice. If an insurance company can drop you whenever you cost them money and not pay, there can be injustice. Racism, for example the allowing of 'racial covenants' to keep a house from being sold to blacks, can have injustice.

The denying to women the right to vote had injustice, the treatment of Japanese-Americans in WWII, seizing their property, had injustice, the denial of marriage rights to groups from blacks to inter-racial couples to gays has injustice, the punishment of some with unpopular political views in McCarthyism had injustice.

Note, many or all of these have had large support at some point.

Saying they were unjust at one time would be attacked.

There continue to be issues raised as 'injustice', and history suggests that there will be some that are opposed now but have a point, unless we fixed them all. Unlikely.

All of these 'could have gone on', as well, as many did for centuries - but it's good we did something to fix them.

At the least, people today should try to consider a claim of injustice before reacting with hostility. Could they be today's person defending injustice?

When you look at the injustices, a common theme is one advantaged group disadvantaging another for reasons of not liking change, or selfish benefit, or bigotry.

The thing is, our political system rewards numbers, it rewards power - it can't tell a vote for justice from one against, whether the majority is voting to give women the vote or voting to oppose desegregation. Votes can be for or against justice. They aren't always for justice - democracy itself is an important tool for justice, but it's no guarantee.

The US has a popular slogan closing the pledge of allegiance, 'with liberty and justice for all', that captures a lot of this desire. Justice against what injustice? Not just the British - but all kinds of injustices that may not have been viewed as such earlier. Social, economic, political and others.

Justice isn't always one-sided and clear - even if it may seem so later, if the arguments of one side seem 'ridiculous'. Privilege and the status quo are blinders on justice.

Even the most unjust often did not think they were - Nazis did not have just the desire to do evil, but the misguided idea they were benefiting the human race, as they 'cleaned it', Darwin's little helpers as they removed what they viewed as inferior elements of the species, the mentally ill and many others, from reproducing. The point isn't how horribly wrong they were, or even the irony most would say they were the members the species needs to be cleansed of, but how they didn't think of it as evil.

It goes to show that if the perpetrators of what is viewed as one of the greatest crimes of history were this deluded, so can be people on smaller injustices - as they have been on the examples listed and many others. How hard it is, even for a people who recite 'justice for all' even while they did not let women vote, who made it the official national pledge even while segregation was legal, to have injustice?

The status quo deserves special mention as a blinder on justice. People 'get used' to how things are - and forget to consider injustice. Things like brutal colonial policies - or any of the examples discussed - could go on without much question because that's how things had always been. People didn't have to ask how they would like to be in the situation of those other people. And even the victims were vulnerable.

Were women across the nation in an uproar every election for over a century? No. While Abigail Adams may have told her husband to consider women's rights, most women did not seem too concerned about 'injustice' that they could not vote, as clear as it may seem today. It took a long time for there to be 'civil rights movements' for issue after issue that was not seen as a problem for centuries but is almost universally accepted as a problem today if it existed.

And there's reason to think today's 'no big deal' status quo can have some problems, too, even as we get better on justice, each improvement making the next easier.

Even the injustice of the British system that led to the creation of the United States, the centuries of the aristocratic class of England who abused their power for more wealth, was not an obvious injustice to many; our same founding fathers who later created the United States earlier had not recognized some big issue with justice, even when they did have issues, they worked to try to resolve them with minor changes while preserving the system as it was.

It took years and things like the writings of Thomas Paine to raise questions of justice that had not really been heard for centuries of injustice. Suddenly, there's an injustice!

One that's so clear and powerful, it justifies people risking their lives over and a world culture shift with noble sayings about 'liberty' needing to oppose it.

Nothing had really changed from the centuries of the colonists being 'loyal British subjects'. It was more the logistics that helped fuel rebellion eventually - and one that came to be widely accepted as an injustice in terms of a society having an aristocratic class that abuses power so much.

How many American lose sleep at night over their being millions of terribly impoverished people who collect the food for them to buy for cheap prices?

That's an 'economic injustice' - one that isn't based on some evil leader, but a system that has come to be where people who are born in the group who picks the food are in a bad situation. There's a big injustice there and we as a society would do well to ask some questions what can be sensibly done to reduce the injustice, but we don't, comfortable with the 'status quo' and the low food prices, unconcerned.

When the same issue was raised about American immigrant farm workers in Edward Murrow's documentary, "The Grapes of Shame", it stirred many Americans to recognize the economic injustice there, and to want to look for how things could be improved, for reforms. Not so much today.

In contrast to the status quo that that blinds to injustice, general rules of justice tend to help put a spotlight and identify injustice.

The 'justice for all' was mentioned as raising questions about injustice in the society that recited it. When Jefferson wrote 'All men were created equal', it had built in the raising of questions of slavery, even of the choice of words eventually of 'men', not 'people' to include women.

The 14th amendment written for one injustice, of race, has been used for reducing all kinds of other injustices the authors wouldn't have begun to intend.

Just saying 'everyone gets due process of law' makes it easier for those who are not to ask 'why aren't they'. Like gays in the military - hardly challenged as unjust earlier.

Indeed, those words written over a century ago could be used to ask, why are gays discriminated against, not getting equal treatment, when it was ruled unconstitutional.

And that court ruling - creating an expected ruling forcing change in the military - helped build the military's support for ending that injustice.

Justice can be controversial - sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly - but it's the most important principle in politics, and the key to why democracy can be beneficial.

The corruption of democracy can threaten it - specifically because it prevents justice, by those who want to prevent it.

And this includes the left's cause of 'economic justice' - just as most Americans now appreciate the justice of workers having reasonable power in contrast to the 'robber baron' era. The right doesn't have to agree with all the specific times it's alleged to happen, or the methods to address it, but they should do better at the larger issue of justice, not ignore it as they are so encouraged to do by the agents of the privileged.

Justice is a word that should be championed by all in the political system - even those who may lose some advantage. Would you own slaves, if you were allowed? The right thing is for you to refuse, even if it would provide you advantage, just as some who are privileged today champion that some of the privilege is unjust and should be reformed.

Justice is the most important word in politics.

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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
That is probably the most intelligent thing I've ever seen in ATP&N (can't believe I read the whole thing). Just don't follow it up with love for Hugo Chavez, or a blanket statement that all Republicans are inherently evil and must be stopped, k?

It'll soak in over time, as you agree change is slow for us dimwitted conservatives ;)

Remember that with change, every single time it seems justice is always "take from the white male Christian and spread it to everyone else" even though that white male Christian who was born just 30 years ago had *nothing* to do with the relocation of Native Americans, nothing to do with the capturing of lands that were previously Mexico's, nothing to do with slavery, nothing to do with women's suffrage, nothing to do with gays in the military, etc.

That is the one viewpoint that you constantly dismiss in *all* your positions, and it gets tiresome. Isn't one of your overall messages to strive to understand other people? Except that you yourself have pre-judged groups based on your own personal views of who is privileged and who is not, and ignore individuals within those groups, only looking at groups on the whole.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,286
147
106
What is justice?

Seriously, answer that question before going on a tie raid on the greatness of "economic justice".

Is it just to reward someone for nothing and punish people who achieve great things? Yet this is exactly what you mean by "economic justice".
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,286
147
106
Craig sets a new level for his wall of texts.

I have no problem with him doing a wall of text. What I take issue with is he makes such broad and sweeping generalizations without considering for a moment what he is saying. He says that politics that practice justice are the best without taking a moment to realize that justice isn't a notion that is well defined by any.

Some believe that justice is whatever leads to the most good for all. Others believe that justice is an absolute right and wrong based on some random moral code. Others believe that justice is something that is completely made up by the individual/society and not something that is actually real.

No, the term justice is so illy defined that saying the best politics are those that practice justice is akin to saying the best politics are those that I like. Because no two people are ACTUALLY going to have the exact same perspective on what is and isn't just.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,875
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Right next to "smug" in the dictionary is a picture of you.

You couldn't just read something and comment on the merits of what you read rather than react like a puppet to your past experiences evoked by the name of the poster? Do you realize you are a robot and not an orgainc living person?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Law is a system that attempts to bring justice to the world and justice is an aspect of love. Politics is the communal process of creating law according to the consensually evolved level that it currently exists in a society. Society reflects our current capacity to love.

There are two kinds of love, the love of the ego, what most call the self, and love that emanates from pure being, real love from the real self.

All ego love is a form of self hate, a protection from pain. What the false self calls justice is pleasure for the ego and freedom from pain. Real justice is possible only for those who have real love of the self. Real love is empathy.

Do you feel for the condition of others in an unjust world? May you find the highest joy if you do. May you be filled with the joy of love.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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Yet what happens when those who dispense justice enforce injustice at their whim? There's a man in Michigan going on trial because he read about his wifes affair on their computer. He didn't have to hack but he faces serious jail time anyway. Then there's how the government can take your property for no other reason than its own profit. They can take your car for half a joint and you have no recourse. "Justice" is most commonly dispensed to those who can profit the politicians best. Who can oppose them? No one.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I have no problem with him doing a wall of text.

If only the post continued as well.

What I take issue with is he makes such broad and sweeping generalizations without considering for a moment what he is saying.

I'd say that's a broad and sweeping claim made without considering what it's saying.

If I need to point out it's wrong, there's little hope for communicating.

He says that politics that practice justice are the best without taking a moment to realize that justice isn't a notion that is well defined by any.

Some believe that justice is whatever leads to the most good for all. Others believe that justice is an absolute right and wrong based on some random moral code. Others believe that justice is something that is completely made up by the individual/society and not something that is actually real.

No, the term justice is so illy defined that saying the best politics are those that practice justice is akin to saying the best politics are those that I like. Because no two people are ACTUALLY going to have the exact same perspective on what is and isn't just.

Actually, that's one of the points I'm making, that may not be obvious and you overlook it, that politics with the intent of justice is one type that's worth noting.

A lot of politics does not have that intent. Within the intent of justice, there are a variety of opinions, but the first issue is trying to have justice.

Take the recent tax rates. Some wanted them extended for the rich, and some wanted them NOT extended for the rich, both for reasons they thought it was more just.

That's the diversity with opinion about what's just.

But a big part had no interest in 'justice' - merely in serving self-interest, or donor interest, or pursuing an ideology, or being a hired hand for an interest, or pursuing the 'party line' that the group they're affiliated with has adopted as its mission for reasons other than justice - all kinds of reasons having nothing to do with trying to be just.

Just increasing the priority of trying to do what's just is an improvement - even if they 'get it wrong', on average it helps.

It's a little like reminding a couple that marriage is about love - if they've forgotten that, and it's become stale and practical without love. It doesn't make the marriage wonderful necessarily, but it helps for them to make an effort, when they might otherwise be in a rut of power struggles.

Politics is a system that affects people's freedom and their prosperity. When done with an intent of justice, it tends to help people. When just treated as a cold machine that is to be manipulated and exploited for maximum gain, it reflects that, and tends to have a lot more injustice, immorality, harm, to not have the human value it should.

The founding fathers used phrases such as 'to form a more perfect union', which are useful for reminding the right way to do politics. For seeing an issue such as elder poverty, and saying, 'what can we as a society do to make our union more perfect, in the situation for our seniors?' There are different answers, from the Libertarians who might say 'NOTHING!' to others - but just the attempt to make the union more perfect, instead of a worse agenda, tends to be useful.

Cynicism is a sort of poison for democracy - easy, seductive, destructive - and sometimes, hard to dispute. When people pursue 'good government', for justice, for a more perfect union, they can get more supportive, less cynical, more helpful in how they approach government and society does better.

The United States, for example, has not always had public education for all children. That was a political idea how to make the union more perfect - and it was done.

There are many arguments about its flaws, but it's had a great benefit to the people.

There's nothing magic that says the world need progress any more than it did from 800 to 1000, from 1800 to 2000 - but it did progress a lot more.

It's not magic, it's a more effective political setup for one thing, with many people helping that more perfect union.

This is a long process. Under the kings in Europe, you had mild remedies against Kings abusing power - eventually leading to the idea of the 'consent of the government'.

This had been going on for hundreds of years when the government was still a corrupt aristocracy, when the US broke off - and it got better.

It's gotten a lot better in many ways recently, too. A decade ago, prison for sodomy was constitutional - as it had been for over 200 years.

Politics has a lot of stuff - appeals to patriotism, and spin from think tanks, and corrupt trades, and compromises with power, and people protecting their own power by doing things that are not just - we've seen political systems go bad, from fascist states like Mussolini, Hitler and Franco, to chaotic states in Africa, to imperialistic states that have killed tens of millions for their own power and gain.

When we can remind people to try to be just in politics, it helps. It's what politics is supposed to do, if it's not going to be a pretty name for tyranny.

The founding fathers tried for a lot of justice in the constitution, and that's served us well. Rather than being written by an entrenched aristocracy or a wild revolution, it was written by people trying to have some justice, with things like separation of powers to prevent the injustice the corruption of power creates, and the Bill of Rights.

It may have been somewhat narrow, matching the list of grievances against England's abuses, but they did pretty well.

The result has helped many people.

When Ho Chin Minh wrote a letter to President Wilson around 1920, saying the Vietnamese were wanting an end to the occupation by France, saying they admired our declaration of independence and wanted to do the same thing and asked our help, how much better would it have been to have as what what just - and not find ourselves funding 90% of the French war costs there in the 1950's, leading to our own war that killed two million Vietnamese, unjustly.

The United Nations was made as a great effort for justice - but compromises with power have badly curtailed and corrupted it, tying its hands and feet. This is because there is conflict between justice and power's interests, and power will fight for gain over justice much of the time. But it's useful, and could be moreso.

You mention the lack of one agreement on justice - my post had that point.

See the section around this:

Justice isn't always one-sided and clear - even if it may seem so later, if the arguments of one side seem 'ridiculous'.

You missed the points, it seems. I considered writing more on justice, expecting comments like yours that would raise the issue. But I did say, for example:

When you look at the injustices, a common theme is one advantaged group disadvantaging another for reasons of not liking change, or selfish benefit, or bigotry.
 
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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Justice has nothing to do with economic fairness????

The concept of freedom is that there will be competition. In competition there will always be winners and losers. The more legislation there is by the government, the harder it is to compete freely.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Yes, its a wall 'o text.

Yes, it was written by Craig.

But well written, IMHO, and some very good points. It also concludes what Anarchist420 wrote: justice is subjective.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Oh, and Craig, it also irritates me how you spend so much effort to try to force other people to question their own beliefs, insult them, demean them, act all superior and shit - all the while having a God-complex of your own, usually completely closed-minded to even the slightest possibility that you might be the one who is wrong on a particular topic.

You just hide behind your catch phrases "I'm for justice" "I'm for equality" "I'm against tyranny" "I'm against corruption"
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,875
6,784
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Justice has nothing to do with economic fairness????

The concept of freedom is that there will be competition. In competition there will always be winners and losers. The more legislation there is by the government, the harder it is to compete freely.

This is horse shit. Justice is always fair. That is why it is justice. In a free market there is an exchange of value where one trades what one has and wants for something one wants more with somebody with just the opposite position. There are two winners and no losers. In an unfair economic situation one is forced to exchange what little one may have just to stay alive. Competition is the process whereby folk who hate themselves get revenge on others for how they feel. Competition is mental illness.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,875
6,784
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When are you gonna get banned?

So sad. You were totally out to lunch with the mosh thingi and you are out to lunch here. A person who totally misunderstands what he reads shouldn't have faith in his opinions. But then what person is out to lunch and knows it, eh?

I will be banned when irritating idiots is a ban worthy offense.

It would be easy to explain to you what mistakes you make but you don't have the courage to make any case for your opinions. You just snipe. I anxiously await your explanation for why I should be banned but it's not going to happen (edit: you making an actual arguement, that is) I bet.
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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81
Justice and $5 will buy you a BigMac. Money is most important thing in politics.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Justice is subjective.

Utter Rubbish. Even monkeys recognize justice. You are less than an ape in understanding.

Of course it's subjective. You are wrong.

For example in some parts of the world cutting off opposite hand and foot of thieves is considered "justice" - In USA this would be considered an "injustice".
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,875
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Of course it's subjective. You are wrong.

For example in some parts of the world cutting off opposite hand and foot of thieves is considered "justice" - In USA this would be considered an "injustice".

Of course, because you cut off the hand of thieves in a time when there were no prisons thieves could be locked up in. A thief will steal your dinner and you may starve to death because of that, or he may steal your horse, vital to your living. And a thief is a person whose self hate is so great he says to himself he needs to steal because he is too worthless to earn a living. But you can't harm others our of your own self hate because that crosses the line. Such folk must be stopped by whatever means a society has to bring to bare. The need for justice is absolute, but circumstance changes how justice is applied. This is a genetic awareness known even to monkeys. It is an absolute for human beings.
 
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