The Bern endoses Hillary

[dullard]

Pay no attention to "Made in China" printed on literally everything in stores. Just remember the colorful graph.

Psst, China isn't in the TPP.

 

[werepossum]

Nice way to set the bar so high it's impossible to pass. Obviously no one can say what a trade deal will do for YOU. We don't even know what occupation you're in. And even if we did, predicting the effect of a trade deal on one person is nigh impossible.

If it's nigh impossible to predict the effect of another free trade bill, then it's reasonable to assume that its results will likely be similar to other such free trade bill: cheaper goods, fewer good jobs in America, a further devaluation of American labor, an accompanying increase of dependence on government, and the inevitably linked further loss of individual liberty.

 

[PokerGuy]

The old loon has endorsed hidabeast. What a shocker. Everyone knew he would at some point, but I'm sure he negotiated some things with her in the process.

Changes nothing, she's still a horrible candidate.

 

[glenn1]

Pay no attention to "Made in China" printed on literally everything in stores. Just remember the colorful graph.

You're experiencing what's called confirmation bias. You don't see the large number of U.S. manufactured products primarily because you're not looking for them. You're seeing the low value-add cheap consumer goods, whereas U.S. manufacturing typically makes non-consumer and very expensive value-add goods mainly purchased by businesses. You're looking at stuff like this:

When instead you should be looking for things like this:

 

[fleshconsumed]

Hey wise guy, you want to go back to a pre Labor laws, EPA, OSHA, unions, etc. time so you can be more competitive, come out and say it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-LLsODnuHI

Just stop pretending to be a liberal that cares about the middle class and the plight of the American worker at the same time.

I would also suggest watching:
Mardi Gras: Made in China (Youtube Trailer)
and
The True Cost (Youtube Trailer)

Every time someone says US is not competitive the underlying message is that it's because American workers are lazy and stupid. That couldn't be further from the truth. The primary reason American Industries are not competitive is because the rest of the world does not have the same labor and environmental protections like we do. Seriously. Watch the documentaries. Extremely educational.

 

[werepossum]

Psst, China isn't in the TPP.

Understood, but it's all part and parcel of devaluing American labor. The more we demolish barriers to importing goods, the more that nations with cheap labor will replace American manufacturers.

You're experiencing what's called confirmation bias. You don't see the large number of U.S. manufactured products primarily because you're not looking for them. You're seeing the low value-add cheap consumer goods, whereas U.S. manufacturing typically makes non-consumer and very expensive value-add goods mainly purchased by businesses. You're looking at stuff like this:

When instead you should be looking for things like this:

Hard for me to accept that, say, $2,000 televisions are "cheap consumer goods". Yet they are manufactured in China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam and Thailand.

Two of the things I specify and approve are commercial lighting and commercial switchgear. Switchgear manufacturing has moved almost exclusively to Mexico since NAFTA. Lighting is moving almost exclusively to China. Even "made in America" fixtures commonly use castings, LEDs, LED boards, LED drivers, and connectors made in China, so that the American "factory" only needs screwdrivers and creative accounting.

 

[Painman]

Wow a link to a bad Star Wars movie.

Not impressive.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/artic...lf-and-the-inequities-caused-by-globalization

And you counter with a link to a golf game?

Let's just do EVERYONE a favor.

You stop posting in here, and so will I.

 

[MongGrel]

And you counter with a link to a golf game?

Let's just do EVERYONE a favor.

You stop posting in here, and so will I.

In other words, you didn't read it.

 

[JockoJohnson]

Every time someone says US is not competitive the underlying message is that it's because American workers are lazy and stupid. That couldn't be further from the truth. The primary reason American Industries are not competitive is because the rest of the world does not have the same labor and environmental protections like we do. Seriously. Watch the documentaries. Extremely educational.

^This. I was going to post something similar but wanted to read through the entire thread first.

Our regulations and labor practices cannot be compared to that of China and other Asian countries. If US-based companies are going to build factories there to make the goods, all of the same labor practices and regulations should have to be abided by if they want the goods to come back in the US. And maybe they are and I am just an ignoramus for not knowing that. But if they are not, how is that even remotely fair to businesses that keep everything in-house in the US?

 

[Painman]

In other words, you didn't read it.

Yes, I did. The sky will fall if we don't all globalize.

Complete waste of my time.

 

[fskimospy]

^This. I was going to post something similar but wanted to read through the entire thread first.

Our regulations and labor practices cannot be compared to that of China and other Asian countries. If US-based companies are going to build factories there to make the goods, all of the same labor practices and regulations should have to be abided by if they want the goods to come back in the US. And maybe they are and I am just an ignoramus for not knowing that. But if they are not, how is that even remotely fair to businesses that keep everything in-house in the US?

What you're describing is a fairly commonly used tactic for trade protectionism. You require that imports abide by standards you know they can't live up to in order to block them. We've in fact signed several treaties that explicitly bar this sort of protectionism because of how rampantly it is abused.

What I don't get is why you want to apply US labor standards to China in the name of 'fairness'. Do you want to do this because your primary concern is the wellbeing of Chinese citizens? I doubt it. You want to do it because you think it will lead to more jobs in the US. In some sectors I'm sure it would, but the price of goods will go up for everyone which will negate those job gains and then some. We will end up poorer as a society so that we can have more manufacturing jobs. Is that a good thing?

The reason why something is manufactured in a specific country is (generally) that it's the most efficient place to make it. When you put up barriers that force people to produce inefficiently we all end up worse off.

 

[ivwshane]

^This. I was going to post something similar but wanted to read through the entire thread first.

Our regulations and labor practices cannot be compared to that of China and other Asian countries. If US-based companies are going to build factories there to make the goods, all of the same labor practices and regulations should have to be abided by if they want the goods to come back in the US. And maybe they are and I am just an ignoramus for not knowing that. But if they are not, how is that even remotely fair to businesses that keep everything in-house in the US?

Can I assume you support the TPP then because the TPP seeks to add lots of protections for workers, the environment, and IP rights.

You can argue that the TPP doesn't do enough for the above but you can't argue that it makes things worse.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/01/12/qa-trans-pacific-partnership

 

[theeedude]

Lack of TPP won't save your jobs, blue collar folks. Sorry.

 

[Jhhnn]

Want to see what happened to US manufacturing?

Note that the right scale in this chart doesn't center on 0, but the trend is still very clear. We're producing more than ever with fewer jobs. That's not China, that's our own technology.

You know facts don't matter when it's easier to blame somebody other than the Job Creators.

 

[Jhhnn]

The old loon has endorsed hidabeast. What a shocker. Everyone knew he would at some point, but I'm sure he negotiated some things with her in the process.

Changes nothing, she's still a horrible candidate.

As compared to... Trump? Really?

 

[theeedude]

You know facts don't matter when it's easier to blame somebody other than the Job Creators.

It's not Job Creators, it's Robots that are driving down the employment.
It's not a bad thing by itself. There is nothing great about a human spending his working hours doing repetitive tasks that a robot can do better and cheaper.
More wealth is created when machines are doing it, the problem is distributing this wealth when work that majority of people currently do is no longer in demand.

 

[MongGrel]

Yes, I did. The sky will fall if we don't all globalize.

Complete waste of my time.

And I feel you are of mine.

So we're even.

 

[Jaskalas]

I'm feeling the Bern at the lack of a single liberal candidate to vote for.

Or an honest, non corrupt, non evil candidate.
Won't find it in the two parties.

 

[Sonikku]

Lack of TPP won't save your jobs, blue collar folks. Sorry.

Not wanting to go further backward is not to say we're going forward. It's to say things are bad but we don't want them to get even worse.

 

[Jhhnn]

It's not Job Creators, it's Robots that are driving down the employment.
It's not a bad thing by itself. There is nothing great about a human spending his working hours doing repetitive tasks that a robot can do better and cheaper.
More wealth is created when machines are doing it, the problem is distributing this wealth when work that majority of people currently do is no longer in demand.

They create robot jobs instead of people jobs. It's been happening for decades. We just never demanded fair compensation for loss of our livelihoods the only way we really can- thru higher taxes on the ownership class & redistribution.

Don't like that? What else is there from a realistic POV?

Where the Hell are Donald's tax returns, anyway?

 

[MongGrel]

It's not Job Creators, it's Robots that are driving down the employment.
It's not a bad thing by itself. There is nothing great about a human spending his working hours doing repetitive tasks that a robot can do better and cheaper.
More wealth is created when machines are doing it, the problem is distributing this wealth when work that majority of people currently do is no longer in demand.

Most of you guys seem to have no clue about production in reality.

Automation has supported the continued global overpopulation of the planet in general, production lines and robotics still have to be built and maintained even then.

Shipping manufacturing to places with poor quality control, on oversight in many ways has leveraged those decisions a very long time now.

I was even working at a place in the early 80s that we built a few things for Cadillac as we were working in conjunction with GM at the time, that were shipped to Mexico for a production line there we were not aware was the intention.

Even built many GMF robotic units in house.

There was a pretty big fit over that one when inept operation of them resulted in much of the tooling came back with Hispanic labeling all over it for operation and the people in Mexico were in capable of repairing it.

Word was leaked to some of the local GM guys and a shit storm resulted.

Doesn't matter these days I guess, you can go up to that area now and many of those factories are just barren flattened wasteland.

All of the old GM, Delco, Borg Warner Gear, and a few others are just past history in that entire region.

I remember my wife and I going up for my father funeral and driving by at least 20 places just to look that were in business 25 years ago when I was living there, and they were all out of business.

 

[JockoJohnson]

Can I assume you support the TPP then because the TPP seeks to add lots of protections for workers, the environment, and IP rights.

You can argue that the TPP doesn't do enough for the above but you can't argue that it makes things worse.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/01/12/qa-trans-pacific-partnership

Then yes I do. If we have to trade with countries, lets make sure to have common practices in place.

 

[JockoJohnson]

What you're describing is a fairly commonly used tactic for trade protectionism. You require that imports abide by standards you know they can't live up to in order to block them. We've in fact signed several treaties that explicitly bar this sort of protectionism because of how rampantly it is abused.

What I don't get is why you want to apply US labor standards to China in the name of 'fairness'. Do you want to do this because your primary concern is the wellbeing of Chinese citizens? I doubt it. You want to do it because you think it will lead to more jobs in the US. In some sectors I'm sure it would, but the price of goods will go up for everyone which will negate those job gains and then some. We will end up poorer as a society so that we can have more manufacturing jobs. Is that a good thing?

The reason why something is manufactured in a specific country is (generally) that it's the most efficient place to make it. When you put up barriers that force people to produce inefficiently we all end up worse off.

I had something long typed up but cut it. I just want to address your last point first. It is comical just reading that statement. The reason something is manufactured in a specific country is because it is cheaper to make...not more efficient. Big difference. It is cheaper because they don't have the same labor laws and regulations that you would if you had to make it in the US. I am saying that is BULLSHIT. Why do companies based here in the US get to legally bypass US labor laws and regulations all to make a more "efficient" product?

So is it ok in your mind to have China and similar countries fuck-up the environment and use slave wages to make products that are later sold back in the US---all in the name of efficiency?

Maybe the US should tone back their labor laws and regulations to compete with these countries (sarcasm, before retards start flipping out). It will make the goods cheaper, amiright? It's all about the price to you, correct?

 

[Painman]

Most of you guys seem to have no clue about production in reality.

Automation has supported the continued global overpopulation of the planet in general, production lines and robotics still have to be built and maintained even then.

Shipping manufacturing to places with poor quality control, on oversight in many ways has leveraged those decisions a very long time now.

I was even working at a place in the early 80s that we built a few things for Cadillac as we were working in conjunction with GM at the time, that were shipped to Mexico for a production line there we were not aware was the intention.

Even built many GMF robotic units in house.

There was a pretty big fit over that one when inept operation of them resulted in much of the tooling came back with Hispanic labeling all over it for operation and the people in Mexico were in capable of repairing it.

Word was leaked to some of the local GM guys and a shit storm resulted.

Doesn't matter these days I guess, you can go up to that area now and many of those factories are just barren flattened wasteland.

All of the old GM, Delco, Borg Warner Gear, and a few others are just past history in that entire region.

I remember my wife and I going up for my father funeral and driving by at least 20 places just to look that were in business 25 years ago when I was living there, and they were all out of business.

OK, you've seen some shit.

I came up in Flint, so I can't really argue. I actually believe you.

 

[fskimospy]

I had something long typed up but cut it. I just want to address your last point first. It is comical just reading that statement. The reason something is manufactured in a specific country is because it is cheaper to make...not more efficient. Big difference. It is cheaper because they don't have the same labor laws and regulations that you would if you had to make it in the US. I am saying that is BULLSHIT. Why do companies based here in the US get to legally bypass US labor laws and regulations all to make a more "efficient" product?

So is it ok in your mind to have China and similar countries fuck-up the environment and use slave wages to make products that are later sold back in the US---all in the name of efficiency?

Maybe the US should tone back their labor laws and regulations to compete with these countries (sarcasm, before retards start flipping out). It will make the goods cheaper, amiright? It's all about the price to you, correct?

Maybe we should be in the business of doing work that is cleaner and safer and not be trying to employ our citizens . I love protections for workers in the US. I actually think we should increase them. That doesn't mean that we should attempt to bunker in our country like North Korea and engage in autarky. China has abundant labor factors. We have abundant technological and capital factors. Let them use theirs as best they can and lets do the same. When we all focus on what we do best we all end up ahead. I simply don't buy the idea that we should make products inefficiently for the purpose of increasing employment.

Cheaper to make = more efficient, by the way. If you can make the same thing for less money it is by definition more efficient.