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The Bay Bridge Span - Ominous new cracks found on Bay Bridge rods

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
More bad news from the ongoing saga of the shit-tacular SF-Oakland Bay Bridge span that just won't stop producing bad news for CA's public works agency Caltrans. Decades late and billions over budget when it open the cost of fixing the issues are only going to add to that massive bill for taxpayers in the state. Yet no one has lost their job over this colossal fuck up or even been demoted and sadly it feels that this will not change even if this thing were to collapse into the bay tomorrow.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Ominous-new-cracks-found-on-Bay-Bridge-rods-6345359.php

Ominous new cracks found on Bay Bridge rods

Tiny cracks found on some of the rods on the new Bay Bridge tower potentially endanger the rest of the more than 400 remaining fasteners that secure the tower to the foundation in an earthquake, Caltrans officials said Tuesday.

They also acknowledged that one of four high-strength tower anchor rods they have examined apparently snapped after it was exposed to water and became brittle. That was the same headache that cost the agency $45 million to fix in 2013 when 32 rods used on seismic stabilizers failed after being left stewing in water.


Brian Maroney, Caltrans’ chief engineer on the bridge project, said the microscopic cracks found on at least two rods lead him to believe the problem could be widespread, and that the rods could be repaired or even replaced if necessary. Nearly all the rods have been exposed to water and about a quarter of them have sleeves that routinely flood with several inches of bay water within days of being drained.

“As an engineer, if I have these micro-cracks I have to assume they exist in every rod,” Maroney said.

Tests on a third rod, a fastener removed after it failed to hold during a test, showed it had failed with a “fast brittle fracture,” Maroney told a three-member bridge oversight panel at its meeting in Oakland.

Experts say the only way such a high-strength rod could fail after becoming brittle was from exposure to hydrogen in the water.

Lisa Fulton, a Berkeley-based engineer and corrosion expert who has studied the problem on the bridge project, said the latest discovery "means that there doesn't have to be a lot of force on those rods for them to break.

"That could indicate that we don't need an earthquake for them to snap, that they are unreliable in the service loads that they are under now," she said. “The micro cracking is a sure sign of hydrogen attack. It's a portent of catastrophe.”

Yun Chung, a retired Bechtel engineer and a specialist in bolts, said he studied the failed rod and believes it cracked due to hydrogen exposure before it failed.

"There is no other cracking mechanism that is operating on the Bay Bridge," he said, adding that other rods could suffer similar failure.

Under questioning from Steve Heminger, executive director of the Metropolitan Transportation Commission and head of the three-member oversight panel, Maroney said the brittle fracture of the tower foundation rod was similar to the fracturing of 32 anchor rods at the eastern end of the self-anchored suspension span.

Hydrogen embrittlement was deemed the cause for those failures. The problem was discovered in March 2013, just months before the scheduled opening of the new bridge.
Patrick Pizzo, a metallurgical failure expert and retired San Jose State University professor, said the results are ominous. He scoffed at Caltrans statements that all but a handful of the bolts passed pull tests to determine their strength. It can take years for water to cause hydrogen embrittlement in steel, he said.

“That's one failed rod already in two years,” he said. “But what about tomorrow? What about 10 years? Fifty years? How many would be left in 150 years?”
Maroney told the committee the rods could be replaced, repaired or modified. The rods definitely need to be cleaned, dried and protected. Replacement would be possible, he said, but costly.


Other approaches include removing the grout surrounding the rods and replacing it with a type of grease that would force out water. Reducing the tension on the rods also could alleviate the problem of micro-cracking, he said.

Members of the committee, clearly frustrated at the continuing flow of bad news, declined to approve new expenditures for cleaning and protecting the rods, saying they wanted to wait for recommendations from a panel of experts that’s looking into the problem. The panel is expected to suggest further testing to determine the extent and severity of the problem.
 
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This is due to shoddy storage practices during construction, namely, allowing the steel to sit in pits that filled with rainwater.
 
I recall 5th grade history class and it was explained to me that the importance of learning history was so that we don't repeat mistakes, and the teacher said, "And someday your generation will be running the world." I remember looking around the room and thinking, "Oh God."
 
I'll take a wild guess and say Schwarzanegger should stick to acting and not signing deals to buy made in china stuff.
 
They don't sound too stressed about it...does that mean it isn't in imminent danger of collapsing? Could you drive over that twice day knowing this? I wouldn't want to have to make that choice...
 
They went with Chinese steel, Chinese workers and got Chinese quality because American workers with American steel was too expensive.

They got exactly what they paid for...lol!

Nice when we get right to heart of the matter. And here's the final wooden stake straight through the heart...

U.S. accuses China of hacking Westinghouse, U.S. Steel
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/19/us-accuses-china-of-cyber-espionage/9273019/

Could this be the reason US Steel was more expensive than Chinese steel at the time? Duh?
 
They don't sound too stressed about it...does that mean it isn't in imminent danger of collapsing? Could you drive over that twice day knowing this? I wouldn't want to have to make that choice...

it's the lack of predictability that is the problem. all engineering designs are based around knowing approximately when and how a structure will or should fail. the designs are such that (in theory), the structure will never fail over the course of X years. this way, you can go in every X/3 or X/4 years and do maintenance to inspect the structure, check for cracks, and perform repairs when and where necessary.

but when you have something like hydrogen embrittlement or stress corrosion cracking, these failure mechanisms are difficult to predict when they will initiate and how fast a crack will grow in the given environment. the stresses required to initiate a crack with these mechanisms is dramatically lower than otherwise predicted by traditional engineering tools (fatigue analysis and fracture mechanics). Cracks initiated by these mechanisms are also often difficult to detect in service. Hydrogen embrittlement is particularly difficult because it is often internal to the part as opposed to external, and non destructive test methods generally look for surface cracks as opposed to internal ones (depends on the exact method).

So if these mechanisms are present, you now have high crack growth rates, low crack initiation stresses, and limited analysis capabilities, and you're supposed to make sure the structure is safe. Suffice to say, that poses a safety and maintenance issue. It may not sound like people are worried, but I can almost guarantee you a team of engineers somewhere is 🙂

Also, I'm really sad to see that CA estimated that the Chinese work saved $400M. That's ~5% of the final cost. I would gladly pay 5% extra to have everything done in the US.
 
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I'll take a wild guess and say Schwarzanegger should stick to acting and not signing deals to buy made in china stuff.

I'll give Schwarzenegger credit here. He wanted a cheaper, plainer design .... basically just a viaduct but mayors Willie Brown and Jerry Brown didn't think the design was bold or "signature" enough. Then they fought over bicycle lanes and designs. This was also on Caltrans which hasn't met one project it couldn't go overbudget or over time and Willie and Jerry Brown who delayed the project until they got this mess of a bridge built.
 
Yes I'm the one thats a problem here. *eyeroll*

You ever criticize the people you agree with....

I wonder why not?

Of course I criticize people I agree with specially when they bring something into a conversation that doesn't fit or belong. Face it, you're a political hack that very seldom if ever posts anything of value in this forum.
 
They went with Chinese steel, Chinese workers and got Chinese quality because American workers with American steel was too expensive.

They got exactly what they paid for...lol!

LOL...Its funny how quickly people jump to blame China.

-These rods that we are talking about were made in America.
-American Engineers went with these rods but inappropriately relied on generic industry standards and should have developed their own custom specifications and testing for this one-of-a-kind bridge.
-Americans failed to test these large rods for embrittlement, as required by industry standards.
-American contractors failed to seal and grout correctly and accidentally immersed these rods in corrosive salt water.

American steel, American workers, American officials = crappy job
 
LOL...Its funny how quickly people jump to blame China.

-These rods that we are talking about were made in America.
-American Engineers went with these rods but inappropriately relied on generic industry standards and should have developed their own custom specifications and testing for this one-of-a-kind bridge.
-Americans failed to test these large rods for embrittlement, as required by industry standards.
-American contractors failed to seal and grout correctly and accidentally immersed these rods in corrosive salt water.

American steel, American workers, American officials = crappy job
Where is information as to where the steel and rods came from.

We know that the contractor may have failed to properly stage them properly.
 

True, they were made in by Dyson of Ohio. Also it is true that they were created as harden rods as requested by Caltrans design specifications. Of which I'm told was a huge mistake on Caltrans part because apparently hydrogen embrittlement is a very well known common issue with these hardened steel parts that are exposed to an environment where these parts would/could be exposed to sitting in pools of water for prolonged periods of time.

Which did occur when these rods were left sitting in pools of water during the installation period from 2008 up to 2013 and were not properly installed in a way that would prevent sea and rain water from entering the installation bases where these rods were installed. In other words it was and still is a gant cluster fucks of errors all the way from the design process which became politicized and into the purchasing decision for these rods, the manufacture process and lastly the installation decisions, etc.
 
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