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The Bailout was so nice you get to pay for it twice, for Europe now

1prophet

Diamond Member
http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...taxpayers-could-be-on-hook-for-europe-bailout
US taxpayers could be on hook for Europe bailout

By John W. Schoen, Senior Producer
The U.S. is coming to Europe's financial rescue.
So far, America's role is fairly limited. But if the crisis continues to grow and the U.S. takes on a wider role, U.S. consumers and taxpayers could feel a bigger impact. The biggest exposure could come from America's status as the single largest source of money for the International Monetary Fund.


The latest round of American financial assistance came Thursday with a promise by the Federal Reserve to swap as many dollars for euros as European bankers need. In the short run, those transactions won't have much impact because the central banks are simply swapping currencies of equal value. If the move helps avert a wider crisis, it could help spare the global economy from another recession.
But over the long term, consumers could feel the impact of central bankers flooding the financial system with cash, according to John Ryding, chief economist at RDQ Economics.


"This is a lender of last resort function," he told CNBC. "With the dollar injections that the Fed has done, it's like giving a patient medicine with really bad side effects." Ryding said the bad side effect in the U.S. has been inflation, which has picked up to 3.8 percent year over year.
Fed policymakers meet next week to decide whether the flagging U.S. economy needs another round of easy-money measures that could include buying more Treasury bonds to push more cash into the financial system.
So far, no one has floated publicly the idea of the U.S underwriting a broader bailout of the European financial system.


But Senate Republicans have already voiced concerns over such a move.
"Our concern is that innocent American taxpayers will pay for yet another bailout -- this time to one or several countries whose spending and debt choices led them to financial calamity,” Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and seven other Republican senators wrote in a letter to Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner in June.


The source of the senators' concern is an emergency provision, approved by the Group of 20 industrialized nations in 2009, granting the IMF broad powers to expand its lending authority. That could leave American taxpayers on the hook for any IMF loans that later go bad.
In July, Geithner sought to reassure the senators that won't happen.
"The United States has never experienced a loss on its IMF commitments," Geithner wrote. "The IMF's claims are recognized by Europe to stand ahead of all others. This, along with the IMF's strong financial resources, provides further assurance that our claims on the fund are secure."


On Friday, Geithner made an unprecedented trip to meet with European officials who are wrestling with the creation of a bailout fund similar to the U.S. government response to the Panic of 2008. With European Union leaders deadlocked for over a year, Geithner, one of the architects of the U.S. financial bailout in 2008, urged the group to move more aggressively to solve a widening debt crisis that threatens to send the world back into recession.


Investors have become increasingly worried that a $740 billion euro EU bailout fund isn't big enough to cope with potential losses if Greece and other countries default on their debts, wiping out those assets held by European banks. With richer countries like Germany and France unwilling to commit more funds, Geithner wants the Europeans to boost the existing bailout fund's firepower. One idea would be to use the money just to guarantee losses from bond defaults rather than buying up the bonds themselves.


European officials are running out of ideas. This week, German Chancellor Angela Merkel shot down the idea of a unified Euro bond that would be substituted for the debt issued by individual nations.
After a year and half of failed attempts at a solution, the world economy has entered a “dangerous new phase” IMF Managing Director Christine Lagarde said in a Washington speech Thursday.


So far, the IMF has played a supporting role in a "troika" of agencies working to head off a Greek default that include the European Central Banks and the European Union. With Greece approaching a cash squeeze at the end of this month, those agencies are demanding deeper "austerity" measures - budget cuts of higher taxes - before releasing those funds.


As the largest shareholder, the United States provides the biggest single source of funding to the IMF. The ownership stake also gives the U.S. veto power over IMF funding decisions. Geithner is a member of the IMF board of governors. Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke is an alternate governor.
IMF funding requires congressional approval. But following the financial crisis of 2008, the Group of 20 countries approved a plan to give the IMF emergency borrowing authority, a program known as New Arrangements for Borrowing, which tripled the IMF's lending authority to $750 billion. The borrowing authority is set to expire in November.
Banksters that were too big to fail,
Perpetual war in Iraq costing billions approaching trillions,
Unemployment high and replacement jobs being lesser quality than former jobs,
Infrastructure failing all around,
And now a possible bailout of Europe,

What can be said except,

Don't worry be happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU😛:biggrin:
 
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LET THEM ALL FAIL. We should seize control of all of these banks who do nothing but steal from the people.
 
More people distrust the banks today than in any other time in history.

The greatest outcome of this financial disaster is that the banks are showing their true colors.

The banks are pure evil and their power has corrupted themselves absolutely.



"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies."
Thomas Jefferson

You know what is funny this isn't the first time the banks have asked for bail out money. Here is a quote from Lincoln during some banking crisis over 150 years ago.

"Now, sir, in the present case, if any gentlemen, whose money is a burden to them, choose to lead off a dance, I am decidedly opposed to the people’s money being used to pay the fiddler…all this to settle a question in which the people have no interest, and about which they care nothing. These capitalists generally act harmoniously, and in concert, to fleece the people, and now, that they have got into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to appropriate the people’s money to settle the quarrel."

Seems like the banks never change.
 
You know what is funny this isn't the first time the banks have asked for bail out money. Here is a quote from Lincoln during some banking crisis over 150 years ago.

"Now, sir, in the present case, if any gentlemen, whose money is a burden to them, choose to lead off a dance, I am decidedly opposed to the people’s money being used to pay the fiddler…all this to settle a question in which the people have no interest, and about which they care nothing. These capitalists generally act harmoniously, and in concert, to fleece the people, and now, that they have got into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to appropriate the people’s money to settle the quarrel."

Seems like the banks never change.


Privatize profits, socialize losses.

Can't be having the wealthy pay for their own bad investments...can we?
 
You know what is funny this isn't the first time the banks have asked for bail out money. Here is a quote from Lincoln during some banking crisis over 150 years ago.

"Now, sir, in the present case, if any gentlemen, whose money is a burden to them, choose to lead off a dance, I am decidedly opposed to the people’s money being used to pay the fiddler…all this to settle a question in which the people have no interest, and about which they care nothing. These capitalists generally act harmoniously, and in concert, to fleece the people, and now, that they have got into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to appropriate the people’s money to settle the quarrel."

Seems like the banks never change.

Great quote! I am surprised I have not read this quote before as Abraham Lincoln is one of my all time favorite heroes of America.

This part is so true what is occurring today with the banks:

"These capitalists generally act harmoniously, and in concert, to fleece the people, and now, that they have got into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to appropriate the people’s money to settle the quarrel."
 
This is the major problem.

The banks lost money. They should fail.

That's pretty much right, but it's simplistic, pretending that what banks do, if they fail, doesn't affect others in society.

That's why they were able to blackmail the people with 'too big to fail'. Let them fail, our economy is destroyed. That's the problem.

We need to have banking providing value to society, not treated with some right-wing ideology about 'who cares what they do, just don't bail them out'.
 
why are you guys bitching about banks when the problem is caused by socialist europeans who didn't produce enough to support their welfare states? Would you wish pension funds that invested in deadbeat Greece harm also? The crisis in 2008 one can fully blame the bankers for. This one I'm not sure. The fault lies mostly with socialism, imo.
 
why are you guys bitching about banks when the problem is caused by socialist europeans who didn't produce enough to support their welfare states? Would you wish pension funds that invested in deadbeat Greece harm also? The crisis in 2008 one can fully blame the bankers for. This one I'm not sure. The fault lies mostly with socialism, imo.

Yes, the people not being economic slaves is the problem. We need more slaves.
 
Big deal, the worlds' central banks have been bailing each other out of messes since the 1920s.

If banks (or currency) in Europe fail it has significant impact on global confidence in banks, currency and the availability of credit & capital.

I just finished reading Lords of Finance: The Bankers Who Broke the World and it's kind of funny that the same arguments made 100 years ago are being made today. That the profits generated by the financial sector are concentrated in the financial sector, but when things go badly the pain is felt by all. IE the assembly line worker at Ford Motor Company sees no extra compensation when Wall Street is booming, but he loses his job when Wall Street and the banks go bust.

It's also interesting how incomplete our knowledge of the relationship between the financial\banking world and the productive economy is even today. And what little is known isn't known by the average person. They're just going about their business hoping to try the new McDonald's sandwich they saw on TV for lunch today, meanwhile virtually every part of their life has been monetized the benefit of someone they don't even know exists.
 
why are you guys bitching about banks when the problem is caused by socialist europeans who didn't produce enough to support their welfare states? Would you wish pension funds that invested in deadbeat Greece harm also? The crisis in 2008 one can fully blame the bankers for. This one I'm not sure. The fault lies mostly with socialism, imo.

The current crisis came about because of the 2008 crisis.
 
That's pretty much right, but it's simplistic, pretending that what banks do, if they fail, doesn't affect others in society.

That's why they were able to blackmail the people with 'too big to fail'. Let them fail, our economy is destroyed. That's the problem.

We need to have banking providing value to society, not treated with some right-wing ideology about 'who cares what they do, just don't bail them out'.

The banks affect others in society in a negative way so for them to fail would be a positive.

“The art and mystery of banks… is established on the principle that ‘private debts are a public blessing.’ That the evidences of those private debts, called bank notes, become active capital, and aliment the whole commerce, manufactures, and agriculture of the United States. Here are a set of people, for instance, who have bestowed on us the great blessing of running in our debt about two hundred millions of dollars, without our knowing who they are, where they are, or what property they have to pay this debt when called on; nay, who have made us so sensible of the blessings of letting them run in our debt, that we have exempted them by law from the repayment of these debts beyond a give proportion (generally estimated at one-third). And to fill up the measure of blessing, instead of paying, they receive an interest on what they owe from those to whom they owe; for all the notes, or evidences of what they owe, which we see in circulation, have been lent to somebody on an interest which is levied again on us through the medium of commerce. And they are so ready still to deal out their liberalities to us, that they are now willing to let themselves run in our debt ninety millions more, on our paying them the same premium of six or eight per cent interest, and on the same legal exemption from the repayment of more than thirty millions of the debt, when it shall be called for.” –Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813. ME 13:420
 
why are you guys bitching about banks when the problem is caused by socialist europeans who didn't produce enough to support their welfare states? Would you wish pension funds that invested in deadbeat Greece harm also? The crisis in 2008 one can fully blame the bankers for. This one I'm not sure. The fault lies mostly with socialism, imo.

The real problem is debt which is facilitated by the banks.

If the banks did not exist the debt would not exist and their would be no problem with debt.

This is the real corruption in our society where people have come to accept that debt is good.

A man in debt is so far a slave.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

“I go on the principle that a public debt is a public curse.”
-James Madison

“Neither a borrower nor a lender be; for loan doth oft lose both itself and friend.”
-William Shakespeare

“He that dies pays all debts.”
-William Shakespeare
 
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HA!

Yes - stop the banks. Please. Go right ahead.

America: you let the wolves into your hen house a LONG time ago. Chickens are long dead and the wolves are hungry now.

The thing is, you SEE this and you still leave the back door wide open. All the while, you choose to yell at the African American next door, the Mexican you hired for $10 a day and the Muslim building his mosque down the street - instead of closing and locking that back door.

Your priorities are all fucked up because of fear and hate. And, you deserve to get eaten.
 
I thought this as well until I looked and noticed that the most socialist countries aren't having these problems. Look at Scandinavia.

The only Nordic country that uses the Euro is Finland, AFAIK. Finland produces a ton of heavy machinery and cool stuff. Until recently Nokia was a big player in the phone market and still is, but with a rapidly declining market share.

I think the 2008 banking crisis is 90% caused by bankers. With the ongoing Euro crisis, I'm not so sure. Banks had to invest their money somehow for their shareholders. It's up to the countries to create sensible policies that would help grow their economy. If you think loaning money to countries at a measly 5-6% amounts to banksters trying to screw people, well then you are just a socialist.

Greece chose to use that money to buy votes with their unions, and I have no sympathy for that crappy country. Their people deserve whatever austerity measure that their creditor demands.
 
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What about Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Ireland?

The problems started with Greece cooking their books. I think in the long run none of the heavily indebted countries can sustain their debt load without growth. I think Spain, Portugal and Ireland had hot real estate markets back in the day when credit was cheap and people from richer European countries bought vacation homes and there were a lot of speculation going on.

I feel for the countries that did not mismanage their governments and got screwed because of Greece. With that said, the only way you can have a sustained welfare state is if you have a large, willing population creating stuff and selling it to people elsewhere. I don't think that applies to Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal. Italy produces a lot of stuff that people want to buy, they've just been mismanaging their government for many many decades.
 
When the USA couldn't pay in gold, they went to controlling their own currency.

Seeing as the Euro is much closer to a substitute for gold than a true government controlled fiat currency, all Greece has to do is begin issuing its own currency to settle debts, problem solved.
 
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