The anti-crypto thread

[BFG10K]

Great news, crypto's collapsing across the board: https://www.techpowerup.com/282380/...ions-in-less-than-24-hours-did-the-bubble-pop

Also China's banned crypto, though individuals can still have it: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/chinese-financial-payment-bodies-barred-122712260.html

The sooner this cancerous parasite is wiped out, the better.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I mean how can anyone claim any security when people regularly walk off with the stuff.

If you hand your assets over to an exchange then all bets are off.

 

[beginner99]

It's ironic how Crypto purports to be an anonymous utopia of unregulated currency to replace "failed" government money . But as soon as one mining parasite steals from another, miners expect government cops paid by Fiat to deal with it.

It's not ironic at all. Stealing is stealing and it's forbidden and thiefs should be investigated and imprisoned. it's not like there is any regulation for trading sports cards yet stealing them still is stealing.

 

[beginner99]

Harsh rug-pull by Binance using "leveraged exchange tokens".

Not like it's different in the stockmarket...robinhood and gamestop anyone?

I have little sympathy. Using exchanges to hold your crypto is risky if not stupid to begin with. Then using some custom leveraged tokens from the most scummy exchange (=binance) which isn't exactly a secret is just asking for troubles. The whole company is setup to be very dififcult if not impossible to hold accountable. They are clearly geared towards the lazy FOMO users that want a "get rich quick" scheme wihout doing any work and as this example shows they will divert any losses upon their userbase.

 

[Mopetar]

I mean how can anyone claim any security when people regularly walk off with the stuff. You can't - for all this talk about how amazing it is the whole thing still essentially requires crypto banks. These aren't banks that are regulated by anyone, there is no insurance if they loose your crypto. It's literally just a random bunch of people on the internet, and you are meant to trust these guys?

If you're putting your coins into one of these "exchanges" you're an idiot, especially if it isn't under some kind of regulation. This wouldn't be any different than putting actual cash into some shady fly-by-night enterprise and just like all manner of investment schemes over the years the results would be the same.

The idea of trying to run off with all of this is kind of stupid. There's no reason that the community couldn't identify the stolen coins and refuse transactions involving them. Maybe certain segments (i.e. drugs) wouldn't care, but if you get enough legitimate businesses to blacklist stolen coins it does remove the incentive to do this.

 

[Leeea]

If you're putting your coins into one of these "exchanges" you're an idiot, especially if it isn't under some kind of regulation.

and if you do not put it in an exchange a drive by piece of malware will steal all your coin from your computer.

If you stick it on your phone it will just get hacked.

if you print them out you will join the legions of people who lost their paper coin.

There is a reason we do not have a shoebox full of hundreds under our bed.

...

Trying to protect the keys yourself is foolishness. Between drive by hacking attempts, and targeted hacking sooner or later your keys will be compromised.

 

[NTMBK]

Harsh rug-pull by Binance using "leveraged exchange tokens".

Can you explain that without a 15 minute Youtube video?

 

[Leeea]

It's not ironic at all. Stealing is stealing and it's forbidden and thiefs should be investigated and imprisoned. it's not like there is any regulation for trading sports cards yet stealing them still is stealing.

As one of the taxpayers who helps pay for said police with my fiat currency, I feel their priorities and funding should be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Leeea]

Can you explain that without a 15 minute Youtube video?

I watched about 3 minutes of it, so this is my "summary":
USDT (not to be mistaken for USD) failed its market manipulation earlier today ("minted" about 30 mil USDT and tried to inflate the markets with it)
This is most likely a dead cat bounce (stock market term)

my own personal notes:
keep in mind 80% of bitcoin's transactions are USDT, so ...

The good news is ethermine pays out today, so I was able to dump my newly mined eth at $2087 spot price in the middle of this bounce. Feeling good about that.

 

[Mopetar]

and if you do not put it in an exchange a drive by piece of malware will steal all your coin from your computer.

If you have sensitive data of any sort on a computer, don't connect it to the wider internet.

If you stick it on your phone it will just get hacked.

See above.

if you print them out you will join the legions of people who lost their paper coin.

If your data is important, make sure it is resilient.

There is a reason we do not have a shoebox full of hundreds under our bed.

Probably a bad analogy. I personally have about $2,000 in cash I keep close at hand. I haven't needed it yet, which I'm thankful for, but you're foolish keeping all of your eggs in one basket regardless of how regulated or secure you think it is.

Trying to protect the keys yourself is foolishness. Between drive by hacking attempts, and targeted hacking sooner or later your keys will be compromised.

If this were even remotely true public key cryptography would have failed years ago. The problem is that a lot of people who have no damn clue about any of the technology they're dealing with have smelled what they think is free money and the results are highly predictable.

Furthermore if you can't protect your own keys how could anyone else hope to do better? There isn't some magic that makes an exchange theoretically more secure. What kind of system could they employ to have better security that you as an individual couldn't implement yourself?

There isn't one which is why your argument is ultimately ridiculous. We're not dealing with a physical asset where they can build a bigger vault with thicker doors or a better lock. They run the same Linux that you can and can set up the same firewall that you can. If you can't do that yourself you can always pay someone else with the knowledge to do it for you, but there's nothing that makes an individual managing their own keys less secure.

 

[simas]

Yes, cooking the books/etc is already illegal, and punishable by law... if you get caught. That's where the problem lies - compliance and enforcement. The public and immutable nature of blockchain makes compliance and enforcement much easier.

Take for example a lab that is supposed to keep Phizer vaccine at -30C to keep it from going bad. That lab has automated sensors that are set up to automatically log temperature every hour into some internal database. Say there was a power outage and the person responsible for monitoring goofed up and didn't notice, the problem didn't get fixed and instead of taking responsibility he just updated internal database to make it look like there was no problem. Now, if the automated sensors were writing data to the blockchain, then he couldn't just cook the books after the fact.

Lets expand the example above and say the hospital administering vaccine randomly tested the batch and realized it's no good. What do they do now? Can they really trust the supplier now? Do they test every batch coming from the supplier now? Do they cancel the contract and try to find a new supplier? Blockchain would completely eliminate that problem, it would prevent the nefarious entity from cooking the data, and it would let the hospital easily verify which batches are good and which ones are not. The world is not black and white, it's not like there is 100% trust or no trust at all. There are accidents, there are malicious entities, blockchain does not replace trust, it helps to maintain it.

... pretty far fetched here. also , the problems of possession and control are routinely handled on huge scales through reconciliation procedures and separation of duties built in. a lab person responsible for monitoring would have zero ability to do anything with the logs , same with their database admin, sys admin , whatever. This is routine and 'monitoring the monitoring person' is built into almost any commercial software offerings I have seen specifically to review unauthorized changes. no need for public blockchain of any kind..

reconciliation procedures - as example, for decades every broker dealer in US is sending their executed trades into clearing repository using order audit trail reports. same with exchanges who say what they executed and for whom. the data is matched and 'breaks' are reported for remediation, along with tracking of all of the above. this is routine, basic, and core of any broker dealer operations.

so , outside of really scummy scenarios of ransom payments/drug deals, what is the real use of this ? may be it could help in other situations?

 

[DrMrLordX]

and if you do not put it in an exchange a drive by piece of malware will steal all your coin from your computer.

If you stick it on your phone it will just get hacked.

if you print them out you will join the legions of people who lost their paper coin.

There is a reason we do not have a shoebox full of hundreds under our bed.

It's like you've never heard of a Trezor before. Wow.

so , outside of really scummy scenarios of ransom payments/drug deals, what is the real use of this ? may be it could help in other situations?

Had Ethereum and OmiseGo delivered on their development promises wrt increasing main chain throughput and offchain throughput via plasmas, OmiseGo would have offered the potential for financial transaction resolutions in the order of billions of txns/second at fees far below the 2-3% you get charged by . . . I dunno, Visa and Mastercard?

Can you see how that might be valuable?

Unfortunately the EF is dragging their feet, and I honestly do not know if OmiseGo (or Raiden for that matter) ever produced anything on a testnet that performed as advertised.

 

[moonbogg]

What a mess.

 

[Shmee]

Safemoon is coming along I hear. Also coins are up a bit right now, but I am kinda hoping they go down again so I can buy more. Idk, but for a lot of these HODLing is a good idea.

 

[DisarmedDespot]

Safemoon is coming along I hear. Also coins are up a bit right now, but I am kinda hoping they go down again so I can buy more. Idk, but for a lot of these HODLing is a good idea.

What have you been hearing? I'm gonna get on my soapbox for a moment as Safemoon is, ironically, not at all safe. It's either a ponzi or an extremely bad idea that looks a lot like a ponzi.

No, really. It has a 10% fee on transactions via smart contract, with 5% going to other holders and the rest to a 'liquidity pool' controlled by the devs. A 10% fee means it will NEVER be useful as a currency, ever. Not being useful as a currency means its only purpose is to make its price go up, despite having no uses at all and not even pretending to have any uses. It's a complete pump-and-dump coin.

The smart contract controlling the liquidity fund should be enough to scare people off because smart contracts are the stupidest thing to come out of the crypto ecosystem. They have a long history of being hacked and another stablecoin with an eerily-similar name just suffered a similar hack.

There's no reason that the community couldn't identify the stolen coins and refuse transactions involving them. Maybe certain segments (i.e. drugs) wouldn't care, but if you get enough legitimate businesses to blacklist stolen coins it does remove the incentive to do this.

Nah, there's a reason. The community has no power compared to the massive mining pools/cartels. They only reject transactions and coins if it affects the entire ecosystem and therefore the bottom line (see: the DAO fork).

 

[Leeea]

It's like you've never heard of a Trezor before. Wow.

oh yay. Lets hope the toddler never gets ahold of that. Lets ignore the weakness of the system it is plugged into. No problems here!

oh, and the hardware itself is not particularly secure:

How Kraken Cracked the Trezor Wallet in 15 Minutes - CoolWallet

Kraken Security Labs identified a critical flaw in the Trezor wallets which allowed their team to extract their PIN codes within 15 minutes.

www.coolwallet.io

trezor hacked - Google Suche

 

[Shmee]

Eh, not perfect, but you got to start somewhere

Interesting news on that trezor being hacked. Bottom line is, be careful, like in general.

 

[blckgrffn]

Eh, not perfect, but you got to start somewhere

Interesting news on that trezor being hacked. Bottom line is, be careful, like in general.

Pretty sure that if there is enough reward, your hardware in someone else's hands gets hacked.

Multi sig is a thing for a reason.

Buy yeah, holding your own crypto is a huge PITA. Even trivial amounts can cause a lot of stress when you think that losing something or forgetting a PIN could cost you hundreds or thousands of dollars.

This is why the ETF scene is going to big deal and why for so long GBTC held a premium. Exposure without possession. Also, ROTH IRA or other tax advantaged holdings could provide a significant shield against taxes on the upside since these listed securities are available on all major trading platforms.

 

[Dribble]

If you're putting your coins into one of these "exchanges" you're an idiot, especially if it isn't under some kind of regulation. This wouldn't be any different than putting actual cash into some shady fly-by-night enterprise and just like all manner of investment schemes over the years the results would be the same.

The idea of trying to run off with all of this is kind of stupid. There's no reason that the community couldn't identify the stolen coins and refuse transactions involving them. Maybe certain segments (i.e. drugs) wouldn't care, but if you get enough legitimate businesses to blacklist stolen coins it does remove the incentive to do this.

But the whole point of a digital currency is to have it "online" to use, not on a usb stick under my mattress. With actual cash I can deposit it an actual bank and it's security is guaranteed (most gov will guarantee all savings up to a reasonable amount in the unlikely event the heavily regulated bank collapses). I can use it and I can't lose it.

As for appealing to people to not trade in coins you say are stolen, well far too few people care. Only government regulation and punishment could make them care. Everyone is just scrabbling to make money and turning a blind eye to everything else - I mean we are talking about a form of currency that's produced by destroying the environment and is doing as well as it does because it's used for illegal activities. If you had a stronger sense of ethics than greed you wouldn't be using the stuff in the first place.

 

[beginner99]

As one of the taxpayers who helps pay for said police with my fiat currency, I feel their priorities and funding should be better spent elsewhere.

Like what? Even more riot gear to terrorize and kill citizens?

 

[Roger Wilco]

Pretty sure that if there is enough reward, your hardware in someone else's hands gets hacked.

Multi sig is a thing for a reason.

Buy yeah, holding your own crypto is a huge PITA. Even trivial amounts can cause a lot of stress when you think that losing something or forgetting a PIN could cost you hundreds or thousands of dollars.

This is why the ETF scene is going to big deal and why for so long GBTC held a premium. Exposure without possession. Also, ROTH IRA or other tax advantaged holdings could provide a significant shield against taxes on the upside since these listed securities are available on all major trading platforms.

An ETF would be a huge deal. The Ark lady submitted for a new BTC ETF today.

I also think crypto insurance will become a massive thing, but I have no idea how that will play out sans FDIC.

 

[Leeea]

Like what? Even more riot gear to terrorize and kill citizens?

Or money to pay for reforms, body cams, and crt training.

 

[simas]

Pretty sure that if there is enough reward, your hardware in someone else's hands gets hacked.

Multi sig is a thing for a reason.

Buy yeah, holding your own crypto is a huge PITA. Even trivial amounts can cause a lot of stress when you think that losing something or forgetting a PIN could cost you hundreds or thousands of dollars.

This is why the ETF scene is going to big deal and why for so long GBTC held a premium. Exposure without possession. Also, ROTH IRA or other tax advantaged holdings could provide a significant shield against taxes on the upside since these listed securities are available on all major trading platforms.

What a horrible idea above -lets take highly speculative 'asset' with zero intrinsic value and create multi level derivatives out of it and then push it down to common public.
Wow, didn't we hear that before (i.e. with real estate)? How well did that work out?
And yes, also lets push it into people's accounts where they have zero ability to replenish them (IRAs ,etc) - once it went to zero or lost 95% of its value, you can not just repeat your contributions from say 2013-2019, when it is gone ->it is gone.

I think we have seen this movie before in all boom/bust cycles
- fad becomes somehow seen as 'asset' and Ponzi scheme starts , ever and ever faster looking for next idiot to sell hot air to
- early adopters dump and run, cashing out
- more and more greed sets in and people start to look at how to "popularize " it, open it up to wider public, make it available for the 'common man'. Fees = $$$
- financial intermediates collect their fees (sale loads, expense ratios, etc)
- it inevitably blows us
- people IRAs/401s and any pension plans stupid enough to go for the fad get crashed.
- a cry to heaven is called along with demands of heads on the pike for all those who were selling crypto hard. lies, theft, and other crimes would be claimed to have happen. few scapegoats would be found. TV talking heads would be pointing out that aloof dork/nerd person who said how this would 'change the world' to direct blame to for everything that was lost through greed.
- financial industry walks out fine (see that fineprint saying we are not responsible for value of the 'asset' and you are assuming the investment risk as well as decisions on suitability for yourself), may be even get next bailout (to help the 'common man' of cause!) , and keep donating to our very democratic party which it bought fully.
- common population will not learn anything at all and continue to blame others for following their own greed ('I saw it on my XYZ major financial broker site so of cause it was real, right? Right?!")
- rinse, repeat.

 

[Mopetar]

But the whole point of a digital currency is to have it "online" to use, not on a usb stick under my mattress. With actual cash I can deposit it an actual bank and it's security is guaranteed (most gov will guarantee all savings up to a reasonable amount in the unlikely event the heavily regulated bank collapses). I can use it and I can't lose it.

As for appealing to people to not trade in coins you say are stolen, well far too few people care. Only government regulation and punishment could make them care. Everyone is just scrabbling to make money and turning a blind eye to everything else - I mean we are talking about a form of currency that's produced by destroying the environment and is doing as well as it does because it's used for illegal activities. If you had a stronger sense of ethics than greed you wouldn't be using the stuff in the first place.

You don't need an exchange to engage in transactions. You just need to know where you're transferring your coins to. You don't need an always on connection to the internet to do that.

The only thing an exchange is good for is avoiding large transaction fees associated with using a blockchain. Of course the person or business you want to transact with would also need to be part of that exchange or both exchanges would need some arrangements to handle that transaction between them.

If you're using an exchange for that convenience why not just use a traditional bank at that point? It's the same convenience backed by actual regulation and the security that affords. Periodically exchange Bitcoin for whatever currency that bank requires for deposits and you can keep your coins safely in your own possession where some yahoo you trusted with them can't just walk off with them as we've seen time and again.

The whole point of cryptocurrency was that it provided a decentralized system. Why does everyone think it's a good idea to reintroduce centralization when those centralized entities aren't accountable to anyone?

I won't even address the moral arguments because they're awful, can be made about regular currency just as easily, and most of them apply to other facets of your life as well so they're usually incredibly hypocritical arguments coming from the average person. I also don't use cryptocurrency so it's a bit like lecturing me on not keeping customs for a religion I'm not a member of.

 

[blckgrffn]

What a horrible idea above -lets take highly speculative 'asset' with zero intrinsic value and create multi level derivatives out of it and then push it down to common public.
Wow, didn't we hear that before (i.e. with real estate)? How well did that work out?
And yes, also lets push it into people's accounts where they have zero ability to replenish them (IRAs ,etc) - once it went to zero or lost 95% of its value, you can not just repeat your contributions from say 2013-2019, when it is gone ->it is gone.

I think we have seen this movie before in all boom/bust cycles
- fad becomes somehow seen as 'asset' and Ponzi scheme starts , ever and ever faster looking for next idiot to sell hot air to
- early adopters dump and run, cashing out
- more and more greed sets in and people start to look at how to "popularize " it, open it up to wider public, make it available for the 'common man'. Fees = $$$
- financial intermediates collect their fees (sale loads, expense ratios, etc)
- it inevitably blows us
- people IRAs/401s and any pension plans stupid enough to go for the fad get crashed.
- a cry to heaven is called along with demands of heads on the pike for all those who were selling crypto hard. lies, theft, and other crimes would be claimed to have happen. few scapegoats would be found. TV talking heads would be pointing out that aloof dork/nerd person who said how this would 'change the world' to direct blame to for everything that was lost through greed.
- financial industry walks out fine (see that fineprint saying we are not responsible for value of the 'asset' and you are assuming the investment risk as well as decisions on suitability for yourself), may be even get next bailout (to help the 'common man' of cause!) , and keep donating to our very democratic party which it bought fully.
- common population will not learn anything at all and continue to blame others for following their own greed ('I saw it on my XYZ major financial broker site so of cause it was real, right? Right?!")
- rinse, repeat.

Better keep buying up those I Bonds!

I mean, most common stocks essentially have very little intrinsic value and are only worth what other people want to pay for them. At this point they are so removed from reality it's nuts. Get listed and the index funds sweep you up.

Seriously, Wall Street is a huge stack of cards. Watch all the stocks implode if things get gnarly, there won't be a safe place. 🤷‍♂️

The whole point now is to get far enough ahead that when the crash comes you'll have made enough to cover. If you bought GBTC, for example, at $4-$10 you're still feeling OK.

And you can flip out now without income taxes in a tax advantaged account into some other asset class. Same is true for the TSLA you bought or whatever other speculative bets you made. No one needs to hold until the ground and there are some massive whales out there that are going to prop it up before zero because they are all in.

It's all a horse race.

 

[DrMrLordX]

oh yay. Lets hope the toddler never gets ahold of that.

At this point I think you aren't even remotely serious in your commentary. I've held various crypto coins since 2016 without ever being scammed or ever losing them to theft. It is insanely easy to NOT lose your cryptocurrency/blockchain tokens. A toddler? Are you serious?

Ever heard of a safe deposit box?!?!

Also:

Why Concerns About A Trezor Hack are Overblown

no_description

www.thecryptomerchant.com

If you left a nefarious actor have physical access to your Trezor (or any other similar device), you will lose your coins either to theft or due to them just destroying the device. So. Whatever.