The Angry Rich

[woolfe9999]

Here's a pragmatic thought: perhaps class warfare is besides the fucking point right now and shouldn't matter worth a damn. In case people haven't been paying attention, we have NO CHOICE right now but to raise *everybodies* taxes. At a minimum, the Bush tax cuts must expire no later than 2013. I could see having it expire for the top bracket 2 years earlier only because the propensity to spend the extra money is less in that bracket and so the effective rate increase won't hurt consumer spending that much during the down economy. But really, the Bush tax cuts have to end, for everyone. And yes, major spending cuts must also kick in right about when the cuts end for everyone.

Honestly, engaging in debates over class warfare at a time like this, when our economy is in its worst state in almost 80 years and we are facing dangerous levels of government debt, is fiddling while Rome burns.

- wolf

 

[JeepinEd]

While building that business, did they fill the jobs they created with americans or did they offshore most of them? I don't think the successful business model can avoid offshoring as much as possible.

What difference does that make?

While building this business, I hired and still hire ONLY people in America, who are eligible to work here. I've been approached by companies offering to offshore my customer service department, but I choose not to. Even if I didn't, however, if in the process of trying to succeed in this country I find I need to offshore some of my work due to unnecessarily restrictive regulations, would that make me evil? I would still be providing a living for other people, who would otherwise be out of a job.

Until you try to start a business, you are completely oblivious to all the crazy and unnecessary regulations that you have to adhere to. It really does open your eyes as to why this country is in a downward spiral.

Don't get me wrong, I HATE outsourcing and think the government should work with companies to make it easier to keep jobs in the US, but I am a realist and don't villainize a company for doing so.

 

[PokerGuy]

Here's a pragmatic thought: perhaps class warfare is besides the fucking point right now and shouldn't matter worth a damn. In case people haven't been paying attention, we have NO CHOICE right now but to raise *everybodies* taxes. At a minimum, the Bush tax cuts must expire no later than 2013. I could see having it expire for the top bracket 2 years earlier only because the propensity to spend the extra money is less in that bracket and so the effective rate increase won't hurt consumer spending that much during the down economy. But really, the Bush tax cuts have to end, for everyone. And yes, major spending cuts must also kick in right about when the cuts end for everyone.

Honestly, engaging in debates over class warfare at a time like this, when our economy is in its worst state in almost 80 years and we are facing dangerous levels of government debt, is fiddling while Rome burns.

- wolf

Sounds good, but knowing how the government works, I want to see the spending cuts take place before they jack up my taxes.... because we all know the reality is that they will jack up my taxes, waste more money, and still have an even larger deficit. Congress and money is like a crack addict and crack. The addict will never be able to have crack and not consume it, just like congress will never have money and not waste it.

The answer to the deficit is spending cuts and tax increases. Anyone who is realistic knows this. But first, I want to see the spending cuts, then come back to me and talk about taxes.

 

[bamacre]

"Taxes are what we pay for civilized society."

If by "civilized society," you mean spending a trillion dollars a year killing brown people overseas, then I have to agree.

 

[JeepinEd]

Sounds good, but knowing how the government works, I want to see the spending cuts take place before they jack up my taxes.... because we all know the reality is that they will jack up my taxes, waste more money, and still have an even larger deficit. Congress and money is like a crack addict and crack. The addict will never be able to have crack and not consume it, just like congress will never have money and not waste it.

The answer to the deficit is spending cuts and tax increases. Anyone who is realistic knows this. But first, I want to see the spending cuts, then come back to me and talk about taxes.

Well said!

 

[soundforbjt]

Incorrect. The true inflation rate, which is the cost of living, has rose quicker than wages, so it's both. Inflation and slagging wage growth.

The rich are invested in inflation fighting investments, while many of the middle class spend their last time on material goods. Meanwhile in China, the middle class and poor, despite living poor, still manage to save money and invest in businesses and industry.

The middle class cannot grow unless they invest. You don't grow the 1960s way, by unions and wage increases. You need to invest and compound your earnings.

And by investing, they stand a greater chance of losing everything and becoming homeless, etc.

There could be plenty of manufacturing jobs here in many new areas if the lobbyists and congress would stop being in the pockets of big oil, wall street, etc.

But those with all the money & power make the rules, so fat chance of anyone making the sacrifices necessary to get things moving. We have a crumbling infa-structure, spend more on military than all other countries combined, still spend way more on healthcare (new bill got too watered down) and are way behind on green technology and renewable energy.

There's too many things that could be and need to be done here that would create manufacturing jobs and plenty of laborer and constuction work. But big corps & their share-holders are too greedy to invest in America and it's people. They want them to buy their goods, but don't want to pay them to produce them.

Look at the biggest basic inflation items and who they really affect,

Insurance of all types,
Gasoline
Utilities
Food
Education

No big deal if your wealthy, but if your lower middle class or poor, even if you don't have children, it's a major part of your day to day budget and concerns.

 

[bamacre]

Suppose we turn a large number of pigs out into a virgin pasture. They will eat all the plants and roots they can. They will wallow in the stream and turn everything into mud and eventually turn on each other. The weakest will be trampled under and the piglets all eaten. Every pig will focus on what he can get and not a wit on what he can give. The King of Pigs will eventually die quite lonely, his tails of piggish glory but echos in the wind.

Competition is what makes humans pigs. Competition is hate. Ours is a world in which the best at hating others win, for a while yet as the planet turns to mud. Humanity was given a banquet on which to feed and turned it into a race to see how much you could eat. And as the sated sleep the hungry eat their lunch.

The hole in the soul created by self hate can never ever be filled with all the money in the world. He is rich only who can give away his ego.

Sorry, Moonie, but the processor and video card in your computer running WoW are all the result of competition. Competition offers something more powerful than you obviously understand. Choice.

 

[JMapleton]

And by investing, they stand a greater chance of losing everything and becoming homeless, etc.

You don't grow unless you risk.

It's that simple and you cannot change that. No such thing as growth without risk.

 

[Zebo]

Here's a pragmatic thought: perhaps class warfare is besides the fucking point right now and shouldn't matter worth a damn. In case people haven't been paying attention, we have NO CHOICE right now but to raise *everybodies* taxes. At a minimum, the Bush tax cuts must expire no later than 2013. I could see having it expire for the top bracket 2 years earlier only because the propensity to spend the extra money is less in that bracket and so the effective rate increase won't hurt consumer spending that much during the down economy. But really, the Bush tax cuts have to end, for everyone. And yes, major spending cuts must also kick in right about when the cuts end for everyone.

Honestly, engaging in debates over class warfare at a time like this, when our economy is in its worst state in almost 80 years and we are facing dangerous levels of government debt, is fiddling while Rome burns.

- wolf

The economy is outstanding for rich people - some hedge fund managers made 2 billion last year! (and paid 15%)

I that's the whole point. Who is getting the fruits of our labors. Bankers, hedge fund managers or us?

 

[her209]

The economy is outstanding for rich people - some hedge fund managers made 2 billion last year! (and paid 15%)

I that's the whole point. Who is getting the fruits of our labors. Bankers, hedge fund managers or us?

Quiet you! Would you rather keep your job or have it sent overseas?

 

[woolfe9999]

Sounds good, but knowing how the government works, I want to see the spending cuts take place before they jack up my taxes.... because we all know the reality is that they will jack up my taxes, waste more money, and still have an even larger deficit. Congress and money is like a crack addict and crack. The addict will never be able to have crack and not consume it, just like congress will never have money and not waste it.

The answer to the deficit is spending cuts and tax increases. Anyone who is realistic knows this. But first, I want to see the spending cuts, then come back to me and talk about taxes.

I find myself on this rare occasion agreeing with you, or at least willing to accept your position as reasonable. An omnibus bill that addresses both the revenue end and the spending end works fine with me.

- wolf

 

[Moonbeam]

Sorry, Moonie, but the processor and video card in your computer running WoW are all the result of competition. Competition offers something more powerful than you obviously understand. Choice.

No, I understand the destruction of the world. But I don't think you do. Never mind video cards. Let's look at some real competition with some real profit margins; let's look at the Mexican drug lords, decapitation and acid barrels where Intel and Microsoft learned their lessons.

 

[Craig234]

Sorry, Moonie, but the processor and video card in your computer running WoW are all the result of competition. Competition offers something more powerful than you obviously understand. Choice.

Of course it is. The *competitive* private economy is the main source of wealth creation, and Democrats are the ones who understand that.

Private businesses have some interests that coincide with the public interest - make a better mousetrap and sell more - and some that are at odds with the public interest - get rid of the laws limiting their harmful behaviors like polluting, find ways to have price-fixing and monopoly, a LACK of the competition you just praised being in their interest.

This is why politicians who serve the business interest - good and bad - (nearly all Republicans and corporatist Democrats) are a menace to society, while politicians who serve the public interest - including a thriving private sector on those areas where it serves the public interest - let's call them progressives, are good for society.

We don't need Republicans saying 'give us your list - hell, write the bills - and we'll pass them and lie to the American people to justify it'.

We need Democrats saying 'we will grow the business sector - while reining in the problem areas of it.'

Over the last decades - century if you like - how have the growth rates done under each party being in power? Oh, ya, much more growth under Democrats.

And instead of the growth all going to the very top like it has under Republicans since Reagan, everyone shares in it.

But simpleton Republicans don't understand the issues and create straw man - the Democrats hate business!

 

[Zebo]

There are people who risk everything, including their health and home, to create a successful business. It's the American dream. Ironically, the more successful a person becomes, the more they are reviled by the left. They feel that a person who risked it all and busted his ass to get ahead should be punished for their success and the person who risked nothing should be rewarded.

This viewpoint is very evident in this thread.

Some. MANY can fail many times and still get million dollar loans to drill for oil. Let me know how many businesses you can run into ground and sit in front of Neil Bush and get several million from his S&L. Let me know if he stops laughing before body guards throw you out.


Yeah I know all about business taking on a life of its own and often consuming you. ... as in sleepless nights and worried weekends as you worry about how to pay your bills, grow revenues, handle employee issues, and deal with day to day crises any one of which can break you. And then you can still fail and lose everything.

Another good reason to have some social welfare. Fails often did not work any less hard than guy who made it. Sometimes shit happens. Luck, personality, under-capitalization, lawsuit, messy divorce, heart attack, stroke and a million other variances that make winners and losers. It's a damn shame how we throw people away in this country. Right now I'm thinking of my dad best friend who dad had to co-sign his flat but at one time was a millionaire plumbing contractor before some catastrophic events happened. These are 70 yr old men you're talking about...can't exactly get back on that 80hrs a week horse again.

I don't revile rich people I just want them to reinvest in what made them rich. The USA and her people. Bill Gates did not open MS in Haiti or hire 100,000 Haitians because they would be worthless to his business. USA OTOH had socialist educational system and infrastructure that made MS possible and Bill Gates possible.

 

[Fern]

Anger is sweeping America. True, this white-hot rage is a minority phenomenon, not something that characterizes most of our fellow citizens.

I don't recall seeing a worse begining to an article/argument.

C'mon Paul, a lot of people are angry. It isn't just the rich. Good grief.

Fern

 

[soundforbjt]

You don't grow unless you risk.

It's that simple and you cannot change that. No such thing as growth without risk.

But the lower middle class and poor can't afford the risk. Some take the risk and it pays off for them. They are the ones who get lucky ( and you have to have luck on your side as well ) as brains, hard work, and fiscal responsibility.

The old opportunities of pay raises, etc are still possible if companies invested here instead of overseas. Greed is fine to a point, but not to the extreme that has become the norm nowdays.

 

[JMapleton]

But the lower middle class and poor can't afford the risk. Some take the risk and it pays off for them. They are the ones who get lucky ( and you have to have luck on your side as well ) as brains, hard work, and fiscal resposibility.

Bullshit, they can risk it more than any one else. Because if they lose it all, they go back to where they started, in poverty. I was born poor and I've always had this attitude. If I lose it all, what am I really losing? I'll go back to where I started.

If you invest conservatively, the risks are actually extremely low. (Don't tell me it's not possible)

Alternatively, they need to invest in education. Education or businesses. It's one or the other. If you don't choose one, you're bound to life of poverty. You cannot making a living anymore working in a factory. There are scholarships, loans, grants, etc, that make this possible.

 

[Moonbeam]

Sorry, Moonie, but the processor and video card in your computer running WoW are all the result of competition. Competition offers something more powerful than you obviously understand. Choice.

Ah shit, you just reminded me that about 3 or 4 months ago I bought a new video card and stuck it in the garage and keep forgetting out of laziness to put it in. God damn it, for 3 or 4 months the Joneses.

 

[JMapleton]

Greed is fine to a point, but not to the extreme that has become the norm nowdays.

Incorrect. It's all a market economy. If a company treats it's workers poorly, they will quit and work elsewhere or start their own businesses. Then a company's customer service and quality of product will falter and they will go out of business.

If you want better wages, demand them, or quit.

In addition to owning a business, I also work a full time job where I'm the top producing agent, by far. My company this year has done a lot to piss me off, so I sent an email to all my superiors basically saying, "you need me more than I need you." Their sh!t stopped in a hurry.

 

[soundforbjt]

Bullshit, they can risk it more than any one else. Because if they lose it all, they go back to where they started, in poverty. I was born poor and I've always had this attitude. If I lose it all, what am I really losing? I'll go back to where I started.

If you invest conservatively, the risks are actually extremely low. (Don't tell me it's not possible)

Alternatively, they need to invest in education. Education or businesses. It's one or the other. If you don't choose one, you're bound to life of poverty. You cannot making a living anymore working in a factory. There are scholarships, loans, grants, etc, that make this possible.

That's all fine if you're young, how are the odds when someone's 50 and their company lays them off or outsources their job?

 

[dank69]

Incorrect. It's all a market economy. If a company treats it's workers poorly, they will quit and work elsewhere or start their own businesses. Then a company's customer service and quality of product will falter and they will go out of business.

If you want better wages, demand them, or quit.

...

That only works when there are other jobs.

A company doesn't need quality customer service anymore in the age of 'throw-away' electronics. FFS it is cheaper to buy a new printer than it is to buy ink for it.

 

[Craig234]

Incorrect. It's all a market economy. If a company treats it's workers poorly, they will quit and work elsewhere or start their own businesses. Then a company's customer service and quality of product will falter and they will go out of business.

If you want better wages, demand them, or quit.

In addition to owning a business, I also work a full time job where I'm the top producing agent, by far. My company this year has done a lot to piss me off, so I sent an email to all my superiors basically saying, "you need me more than I need you." Their sh!t stopped in a hurry.

You really don't understand labor issues it appears. Oh, I know you know some things about some of the mechanics currently - I mean the larger issues.

How worker poverty was locked in and severe, not helped by your ideology, earlier until the rules were changed to give workers more power.

You could benefit from learning some of that history - and what's protecting you from your protest not resulting in you being thrown out.

You assume there ARE better alternatives.

That's a bad assumption. There might be, but that's a result of policies you don't seem familiar with.

Generations of labor battles improved the workers' situation to what you enjoy today.

Tell me how much leverage factory workers in 1900 had to protest and threaten to quit.

 

[JeepinEd]

That only works when there are other jobs.

A company doesn't need quality customer service anymore in the age of 'throw-away' electronics. FFS it is cheaper to buy a new printer than it is to buy ink for it.

Customer service and quality control are two different things.
In regards to quality control, if a company makes shitty products, nobody will buy them.
Customer service is often one of the most important departments of a company. Not everybody makes widgets. In many companies, customers must interface directly with customer service in order to conduct business. If you don't offer quality customer service, the client will simply go elsewhere.

 

[soulcougher73]

Bullshit, they can risk it more than any one else. Because if they lose it all, they go back to where they started, in poverty. I was born poor and I've always had this attitude. If I lose it all, what am I really losing? I'll go back to where I started.

If you invest conservatively, the risks are actually extremely low. (Don't tell me it's not possible)

Alternatively, they need to invest in education. Education or businesses. It's one or the other. If you don't choose one, you're bound to life of poverty. You cannot making a living anymore working in a factory. There are scholarships, loans, grants, etc, that make this possible.

The bolded is a damn shame. It may not be rewarding work or highly educated work, but it is still someone creating or making something people use on a daily bases. Just because it may seem like a low end job does not mean you cant take pride in it.

 

[sao123]

Bullshit, they can risk it more than any one else. Because if they lose it all, they go back to where they started, in poverty. I was born poor and I've always had this attitude. If I lose it all, what am I really losing? I'll go back to where I started.

If you invest conservatively, the risks are actually extremely low. (Don't tell me it's not possible)

Alternatively, they need to invest in education. Education or businesses. It's one or the other. If you don't choose one, you're bound to life of poverty. You cannot making a living anymore working in a factory. There are scholarships, loans, grants, etc, that make this possible.

an exclusive white collar economy is going to collapse under its own weight. Until we see growth in the blue collar sectors, our CEOs will eventually see the same collapse our middle class currently is. when our blue collar sector is successful, the rest of our economy will be.