The 2020 Toyota Supra

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repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,471
3,311
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I guess it's all relative. I'm used to Honda products which are known to be quite good. Subaru is usually good too.

I've heard Honda manuals are good but haven't driven one. Subaru on the other hand I wasn't impressed with ('14 WRX) ... still vague and sloppy like most cars, just slightly less so. BMWs are generally excellent, so it's too bad this one is automatic only.
 

NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
27,034
546
126
I've not really tried the cable shifted Subarus. The older cars (and STI) use a rod linkage.

I did test drive a Forester 6MT but the experience was so underwhelming we bought the CVT.
 
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MadScientist

Platinum Member
Jul 15, 2001
2,153
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91
The Supra looks a bit similar to my 2013 FR-S. When the FR-S and its sibling the BRZ came out in the summer of 2012 interest was high and so were sales. Since then sales have nosedived thanks to the same buyers. Since Scion is no more it's now called the Toyota 86 and it has changed very little since its debut. This is an ulta niche product, and you can’t sell the same people the same new car year after year. Due to the Supra and low sales, there's rumors out there that this car may not see a second generation.

I purchased my FR-S as a CPO vehicle in February, 2014 for $19K. It had 4K miles on it. Dealer advertised it as a manual but it was an auto. I wasn't going to buy it but after a test drive I was sold. The Subaru boxer engine only puts out 200 HP but for this car it's more than adequate. It's not speed but handling that sets this car apart from others. It corners like it's on a rail. It's only 18.2 miles from my driveway to the start of the Tail of the Dragon.

I have left the engine and exhaust stock but have put a few cosmetic mods on it, Five:AD spoiler, shark fin antenna, Valenti LED tail lights, OEM mud flaps, and 2015 tail pipes. Pictures taken this fall after a wash and wax.
scion2-jpg.2629


Scion1.JPG
 

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bigi

Platinum Member
Aug 8, 2001
2,484
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My question has always been " what kind of mental deficiency one has to have to purchase such an automobile"
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,133
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People waited 22 years for a rebadged BMW Z4 in a different package? And the base price is going to be around $55k?

I get that it's not supposed to be a massive volume seller, but this just sounds like Toyota couldn't be bothered to put in any ounce of effort for this car. Very disappointing.

Lets pretend for a second that the car on sale is not a BMW but a Toyota. Meaning the drive train was clean sheet design by Toyota and by sheer coincidence it happened to look like the same engine in various BMW's.

They would have built a car that easily out performs the Supra of the 90's. Factor in inflation and they are selling it for less than they charged in 1993.

2020 Supra
  • 3.0: $49,990
  • 3.0 Premium: $53,990
  • Launch Edition: $55,250

1993 Supra adjusted for inflation: $68,000

What should Toyota have done differently? What should the price point be and what should the performance have been?
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,411
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They would have built a car that easily out performs the Supra of the 90's.

What should Toyota have done differently? What should the price point be and what should the performance have been?

Also, as long as we're being whiny little babies about it :D

My '18 2.3L 4-cylinder turbo Ecoboost Mustang puts out 310 horsepower with 320 to 350 lb-ft of torque. The 2020 Supra has a 3.0L inline-6 turbocharged that puts out 335 horsepower with 365 lb-ft of torque. You can find a base Mustang for $20k; the Supra starts at $30,000 more, with a base price of almost $50k. So from a numbers standpoint, $30k extra for 25 more horsepower, which I could probably get with a decent tune on mine. The new Supra goes 0 to 60 in 4.1 seconds & the Ecoboost Mustang does it in 5.3 seconds. Also note that the 2018 V8 Mustang starts at $36k base (still $14k less than a base Supra) & goes 0 to 60 in 3.9 seconds, a full 0.2 seconds faster than the Supra & under the 4-second mark. Yes, the 2020 Supra is going to be more powerful than the one they made 22 years ago. But there are also multiple 4-second cars for $10k less, so unless you're into nostalgia or just really like the new design, it's kind of a little bit meh.

And yes, I realize they're not the same cars (but they both are sports cars!) & yada yada yada, but with no stick-shift option & with an engine only a little better on paper than my four-cylinder, it's just kind of disappointing is all. They've had twenty years to do amazing things & they pretty much just stuck a body kit on top of a BMW & then outsourced it to be built by Magna Steyr in Australia. Not to mention reputation...BMW's are known to be costly to maintain & repair, whereas Toyotas are built to last, so there's now a question mark about how reliable your $50k "Toyota" is going to be, long-term, and how expensive the long-term fixes & maintenance will be. I mean, there's one dude who claims to have half a million miles on his original 3L 2JZ:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/buying-maintenance/news/a29304/toyota-supra-520000-miles/

Personally, I like the design, but I would have liked to have seen a 6-speed manual transmission option right out of the gate, with more power, and for it to have been "built by Toyota". Plus, I mean, if you're going to go with a partnership with another company, why not put something crazy in there like a 500-horsepower Ecoboost engine to make it more novel & unique? They did that with the Focus RS (350 HP + AWD) & it became a top seller for Ford, and would have made the Supra stand out even more. Or maybe release a 400 horsepower version & allow room for it to be heavily modded to 500. Or something. As it is, the 2020 is just kind of a cool-looking but slightly-underwhelming new car, capitalizing on historic, pop-culture & scene nostalgia, without really bringing anything super-interesting to the table.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,511
219
106
Also, as long as we're being whiny little babies about it :D

My '18 2.3L 4-cylinder turbo Ecoboost Mustang puts out 310 horsepower with 320 to 350 lb-ft of torque. The 2020 Supra has a 3.0L inline-6 turbocharged that puts out 335 horsepower with 365 lb-ft of torque. You can find a base Mustang for $20k; the Supra starts at $30,000 more, with a base price of almost $50k. So from a numbers standpoint, $30k extra for 25 more horsepower, which I could probably get with a decent tune on mine. The new Supra goes 0 to 60 in 4.1 seconds & the Ecoboost Mustang does it in 5.3 seconds. Also note that the 2018 V8 Mustang starts at $36k base (still $14k less than a base Supra) & goes 0 to 60 in 3.9 seconds, a full 0.2 seconds faster than the Supra & under the 4-second mark. Yes, the 2020 Supra is going to be more powerful than the one they made 22 years ago. But there are also multiple 4-second cars for $10k less, so unless you're into nostalgia or just really like the new design, it's kind of a little bit meh.

And yes, I realize they're not the same cars (but they both are sports cars!) & yada yada yada, but with no stick-shift option & with an engine only a little better on paper than my four-cylinder, it's just kind of disappointing is all. They've had twenty years to do amazing things & they pretty much just stuck a body kit on top of a BMW & then outsourced it to be built by Magna Steyr in Australia. Not to mention reputation...BMW's are known to be costly to maintain & repair, whereas Toyotas are built to last, so there's now a question mark about how reliable your $50k "Toyota" is going to be, long-term, and how expensive the long-term fixes & maintenance will be. I mean, there's one dude who claims to have half a million miles on his original 3L 2JZ:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/buying-maintenance/news/a29304/toyota-supra-520000-miles/

Personally, I like the design, but I would have liked to have seen a 6-speed manual transmission option right out of the gate, with more power, and for it to have been "built by Toyota". Plus, I mean, if you're going to go with a partnership with another company, why not put something crazy in there like a 500-horsepower Ecoboost engine to make it more novel & unique? They did that with the Focus RS (350 HP + AWD) & it became a top seller for Ford, and would have made the Supra stand out even more. Or maybe release a 400 horsepower version & allow room for it to be heavily modded to 500. Or something. As it is, the 2020 is just kind of a cool-looking but slightly-underwhelming new car, capitalizing on historic, pop-culture & scene nostalgia, without really bringing anything super-interesting to the table.

You can find Mustangs at 30% off MSRP, lol.

There's a lot more to an engine than peak hp/torque numbers and there's a lot more to a car than performance numbers.

Re: "allow room to be heavily modded to 500", here's a B58 (basically the Supra motor) with water/meth and a tweaked turbo:

b58_jb4_pure_stage1_dyno.jpg
 
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Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,476
523
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Sure a true manual is not fantastic. But its far from a deal breaker to me. How many super cars have it, or have paddle shifters instead. Most are paddles. Even lowly Ferrari's, Porsche's, etc are paddle. True manuals are a niche market, but I would like to see a version with it. They may down the road, for more money. When manuals in cars used to make them cheaper. They know people want it, and will charge for it if they do.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,411
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Sure a true manual is not fantastic. But its far from a deal breaker to me. How many super cars have it, or have paddle shifters instead. Most are paddles. Even lowly Ferrari's, Porsche's, etc are paddle. True manuals are a niche market, but I would like to see a version with it. They may down the road, for more money. When manuals in cars used to make them cheaper. They know people want it, and will charge for it if they do.

Honestly that's a big reason I got a stick-shift in my current car. My next car will be electric, but I plan on keeping my Mustang forever. My guess is we're not going to see too many more true manuals being produced in the next twenty years :(
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,411
5,270
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My question has always been " what kind of mental deficiency one has to have to purchase such an automobile"

I live my life a quarter-pounder at a time
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,411
5,270
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2023 Supra with a 6-speed manual: (only available with the 6-cylinder)

 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,411
5,270
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I think it's nice, but Toyota should have done this years ago.

At least they updated the horsepower in the V6!

Unpopular take, I actually don't really like the new Supra aesthetic design IRL. I've been seeing them more & more lately...I think they look better in pictures lol.
 

Muadib

Lifer
May 30, 2000
17,916
838
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At least they updated the horsepower in the V6!

Unpopular take, I actually don't really like the new Supra aesthetic design IRL. I've been seeing them more & more lately...I think they look better in pictures lol.
I've only seen it 3 or 4 times, on the highway. I'm ok with the look. My problem with it was the power, and I'm glad to see it addressed. I need to see it up close now.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,411
5,270
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I've only seen it 3 or 4 times, on the highway. I'm ok with the look. My problem with it was the power, and I'm glad to see it addressed. I need to see it up close now.

Yeah, 382 HP with a 6-speed sounds more like it!!
 
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bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
6,645
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I've only seen one in person and it was in passing not up close. It looked ok but I'd have to see it closer to make a better judgement.
I like vehicles of all shapes and sizes and the truth is I've never been interested in the Supra so I've never gone out of my way to see one.

That said Dougs take echos all the other media outlets screaming "BRING BACK THE MANUALS!". My take is if the consumer wanted a manual they would be more prevalent but they are not. Even in the new C8 GM had to make a judgement call during the design phase and guess what......it didn't happen because they knew most buyers opt for the auto when given the choice.
 

rstrohkirch

Platinum Member
May 31, 2005
2,424
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The manual take rate on enthusiast cars like these is generally 20-25%. The C7 mentioned above averaged around 26% over its life time and Toyota thinks they can get the Supra up to about 25%. Since these are enthusiast cars, not having a manual will absolutely cause a lost of potential sales for those who only want a manual. The question is if the extra profit from those sales justifies the cost of implementing the manual.

Another example is the Cadillac Blackwings which are available in manuals. Cadillac didn't put a manual in their prior V so the last manual sports sedan from them was 2015. The teams had to fight for the manual and management barely said yes. They expected nothing better than 10% take rate. The only other manual luxary sports sedan is the M3. These cars generate sales just because they offer manuals and their take rate for the first year was 50%.