Yeah, I saw that, but it's still something to behold. I wouldn't use it either. But the Peerless XLS is only 4db more efficient. So it's not exactly terrible given the class of drivers its to be compared to. Did you take a gander at the lower end models with much better efficiency? The guy should still be commended. It's not exactly easy to make TC Sounds available to everyone.
Yeah, I saw that, but it's still something to behold. I wouldn't use it either. But the Peerless XLS is only 4db more efficient. So it's not exactly terrible given the class of drivers its to be compared to. Did you take a gander at the lower end models with much better efficiency? The guy should still be commended. It's not exactly easy to make TC Sounds available to everyone.
Muadib
Lifer
- May 30, 2000
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Blu ray will support:
linear PCM (LPCM) - offers up to 8 channels of uncompressed audio.
Dolby Digital (DD) - format used for DVDs, offers 5.1-channel surround sound.
Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) - extension of DD, offers increased bitrates and 7.1-channel surround sound.
Dolby TrueHD - extension of MLP Lossless, offers lossless encoding of up to 8 channels of audio.
DTS Digital Surround - format used for DVDs, offers 5.1-channel surround sound.
DTS-HD - extension of DTS, offers increased bitrates and up to 8 channels of audio.
You would be taking a gamble buying now if you want support for all of those codecs.
I'd rank drivers by cost, not size. And for $600, it had better perform like a $600 driver should.
Don't see anything wrong with that one. It's probably using a conventional overhung motor design.
The TC Sounds TC2+ drivers are readily available from O Audio as you previously mentioned.
Well the main issue is they use aluminum cone mids. Aluminum is really hard to work with. A lot part of the price is in all the notch filters and the steep crossover to get rid of all the "excess noise" aluminum makes, and as a consequence, turns the Rockets into "laid back speakers."
All you have to do is look at the X-LS series. Performance wise they trounce the Onix series with "paper" drivers from the GR AV-1 kit ($800) and they sell the X-LS for $200. More detail, easier to work with drivers. The only compentently designed aluminum speakers I've seen at a respectable price range are the Energy Veritas, and they are double the price of the Rockets. It takes a *lot* of work to get aluminum mids done right without having to hide all the detail. You need some *really* strong voice coils to control the distortion and even with the Veritas they only use aluminum in the 2" midrange to make the problem area of aluminum resonance spikes as small as possible.
Given the money you have to pour in to make aluminum work, its no wonder AV123 is going toward better performing, more cost effective solutions.
There is no reason why aluminum diaphragms should add distortion in the passband (certain frequencies exempted...). Yes, distortion will increase when the diaphragm starts breaking up, but otherwise the distortion should be low.
One of the best tweeters available now is the Seas 27TBFCG, and it's got an aluminum dome. It's also $30 in case you're going to bring up the fact that you need to "pour in a lot of money to make aluminum work". One of the best bang-for-the-buck driver ranges available now is the Dayton RS line (), and they use aluminum diaphragms in every single driver. And let's not forget Seas' magnesium and aluminum cone drivers...
In short: aluminum doesn't have to be expensive to sound good, or be cheap with requisite high distortion.
Hah...good question. If you really have that much money, you should audition these and alternatives together to see which you prefer. The only academic issue of being "laid-back"--is that there is a dip in the prescence region 2-5KHz, where our hearing is most sensitive (this is where aluminum resonance spikes, which is why this region has to be held down).
I personally prefer more neutral speakers, especially if to be used in a larger room. But will they sound great? Most likely. The problem here is, at this price range, almost *everything* sounds great, so auditioning the nuances is of prime importance. The cherry finish is impeccable though, I must say. Will you prefer a speaker with more neutral sound and more cost effective design? Or the Rockets, with a much nicer finish? Where's your priorty? That's the question.
I personally prefer more neutral speakers, especially if to be used in a larger room. But will they sound great? Most likely. The problem here is, at this price range, almost *everything* sounds great, so auditioning the nuances is of prime importance. The cherry finish is impeccable though, I must say. Will you prefer a speaker with more neutral sound and more cost effective design? Or the Rockets, with a much nicer finish? Where's your priorty? That's the question.
I don't know much about the subjective descriptions of sound (warmth, "laid-back-ness", aggressive, etc.), but there's no reason why a notch filter needs to attenuate the peak so much that the response at the frequency of the peak is lower than the surrounding frequencies.
Also, the frequency of breakup depends largely on the cone size - and to a smaller extend, the cone geometry. 12" drivers with aluminum cones generally break up between 150Hz and 300Hz, IIRC, whereas 3" drivers will generally break up over 6kHz.
Two different implementations of aluminum:
Onix Rockets (750s)
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/images/archivesart/305rocket.fig1.jpg
Energy Veritas (v2.4)
http://www.guidetohometheater.com/speakersystems/20/index5.html
It took various tactics to not have to push down the prescence region on the aluminum for Energy (dual voice coils, tapered crossover, 3-way design, etc, that you see NHT also mimicking now with their 3-way Classic). On the Rockets there's a 2-5KHz suckout to the tune of 10db.
Howard, and you are correct about the size and breakout range. Onix uses a line of 5.5" aluminum mids, or 6.25s on their smaller speakers. These will break up in the most audible region.
Onix Rockets (750s)
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/images/archivesart/305rocket.fig1.jpg
Energy Veritas (v2.4)
http://www.guidetohometheater.com/speakersystems/20/index5.html
It took various tactics to not have to push down the prescence region on the aluminum for Energy (dual voice coils, tapered crossover, 3-way design, etc, that you see NHT also mimicking now with their 3-way Classic). On the Rockets there's a 2-5KHz suckout to the tune of 10db.
Howard, and you are correct about the size and breakout range. Onix uses a line of 5.5" aluminum mids, or 6.25s on their smaller speakers. These will break up in the most audible region.
- Feb 14, 2004
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Well, I don't have that much $$$ now; I'm in college and work hourly part time right now. But I've put together a savings plan and a budget, so if all goes well, I'll be able to get the audio equipment in a year or so. I already have some good video equipment, so I don't mind waiting on that. As far as what I prefer, I'd honestly have to say the finish. After a few hundred dollars my ears stop discerning the differences in speakers. After $500 or $600, everything sounds about the same to me. So yeah, I want my rosewood Rockets
I would attribute this to poor speaker design (although the drivers could very well be utter crap).
- Feb 14, 2004
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The graphs look good though:
http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=79.1
See the part that says 1/3 octave on the frequency response graph? That's how much the line is smoothed (the smaller the fraction, the more accurate). I wouldn't use a graph with more smoothing than 1/6th octave.
With a 3db suckout in the prescence region, you will probably have to turn up the volume a little more for dialogue, methinks.
Equalization is kind of an evil one might want to avoid if possible. Unless one must have a certain speaker (say for the finish), buying a speaker that isn't satisfying or to one's tastes, then equalizing it, seems a waste, particularly with the artifacts that equalization brings, such as high frequency distortion.
This is what I have been saying this whole time. I don't have a problem with aluminum as a driver material (some with very good hearing *do* have problems with aluminum tweeters, but not me, and that's another discussion altogether). As you brought it up, the breakup zones are different per size of the speaker cone. Yes, that is what I am saying, aluminum is a difficult midrange material to work with. At this price range, the Rockets are actually a *well* designed aluminum driver product--the tradeoff of depressed mids to hold down the cone resonances. It's a poor challenge to tackle in this price range. The other alternative is to not hold down the resonances at all, and have a linear response.
Meet Axiom speakers. Very linear, but with midrange breaking up all over the place. All the reviews of Axiom have a polite "it seems bright/harsh, but might be the room", when none of the other speakers in the shootout that are similarly neutral exhibit the same results (check out reviews and speakershootouts involving Axiom speakers at Audioholics). I actually used to own a pair of Axioms, and they were definitely way too harsh for me, even though they measured extremely linear (M22tis are +/-1.5db from 90-20KHz, and +/-3db from 75-20KHz).
Anyways, the Rockets are an "attempt" at aluminum mids which are adequate at this price range but tradeoffs occur (either linearity with ringing, or laid back mids). Lots of people like them, as their finish is impeccable. I think for home theather they would be great, but for music you would probably want something that is a bit more accurate, and isn't trying to tackle a challenge with an "exotic" midrange material. And AV123 even offers that for you: the X-LS bookshelf speaker at $200; +/-1.75db from 60-20KHz.
That's not a $60 radio shack equalizer, that's a $900 Theatre equalizer. And it's one item than can insure if a theatre moves to a new room, compensations can be done for the particular room modes which goes far beyond trying to compensate for your monitors frequency graph. It's something anyone serious about this should own.
Shouldn't you have some money saved already before planning something like this? Planning to save without starting, I agree, many things can happen.
No, they are absolutely not a well-designed aluminum driver product. As a designer, I would definitely not countenance putting something together like that to save a few dollars (and I'm literally talking a few dollars; good crossover components may be expensive but not THAT expensive) at the obvious expense of accuracy.
Take a look at this design:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker17.html
Now, power handling and maximum output is probably lower than that of the 750s, but it sounds way better. Take a look at the 1m in-room response? Almost as flat as a ruler, to use a tired cliché. If you look at the woofer's response, the break-up at 7kHz is completely attenuated and doesn't affect the combined response on axis at all.
And yeah... the crossover needs big bucks, eh? The notch filter needs just a capacitor and an inductor. Granted, the woofer's great (in that it only has one peak - the main one), but it's not exactly expensive ($70). Adding the cost of the $30 tweeter, that's $200 and odd change for the drivers of a speaker that'll beat out a hell of a lot of commercial systems in terms of accuracy.
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