That did not take long.

[Nebor]

Yeah sure, but the trouble is that installing and maintaining democracy there is the only reason we were there to begin with. Or at least, that was the only quasi legitimate reason given. There were no WMD's. So we spend a trillion dollars and thousands of American lives only to have it return to dictatorship that it was before? Fine, don't give a shit, but that only proves Bush's mission a 100% total failure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Yeah sure, but the trouble is that installing and maintaining democracy there is the only reason we were there to begin with. Or at least, that was the only quasi legitimate reason given. There were no WMD's. So we spend a trillion dollars and thousands of American lives only to have it return to dictatorship that it was before? Fine, don't give a shit, but that only proves Bush's mission a 100% total failure.

Democracy isn't anywhere near dead yet in Iraq. Some on the left would love to pronounce it so because they seem so thoroughly butthurt that Iraq didn't completely fail and become a quagmire under Bush despite their insistent proclamations all along the way that it would happen. So now they are quick on the trigger to proclaim that Iraq is in the midst of failure whenever any news comes along that they feel might validate their viewpoint.

This is simply another hickup in the Iraqi Democratic process. It's not the first crisis that Iraq has faced (and that LL has WRONGLY claimed will be their downfall) and it won't be the last. They will overcome the problems and move on. It's all part of the process.

 

[JTsyo]

Instead of keeping the country together, the US should have just divided it into smaller countries. That way if one goes bonkers, it won't have much power available to effect neighboring countries.

 

[Oyeve]

Instead of keeping the country together, the US should have just divided it into smaller countries. That way if one goes bonkers, it won't have much power available to effect neighboring countries.

Why should the US have done anything? Shit, we didnt need to be there is the first place.

 

[Lemon law]

Unfortunately the Iraq crisis deepened today, with series of co-ordinated bombing all over the country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/w...mid-iraqi-political-crisis.html?ref=middleeas

With Maliki threatening to leave the the fragile Iraqi government democracy agreements as sectarian violence is returning to Iraq.

As for what it means for the Iraqi future, anyone's guess is good as mine.

 

[Fern]

Amazing how fast this seems to be going down the crapper. We're not out of the country for 24 hrs and the poop starts hitting the fan.

Whether or not we ever should have been there in the first place is one thing. But once we've spent all that blood and treasure that former question is just so much water under the bridge.

Unfinished jobs come back to bite you on the butt, more so when it involved military action. If this thing keeps degrading we may, unavoidably, find ourselves (along with other nations) compelled to go back in. The breakout of sectarian bloodshed will likely produce a lot refugees (Kurds and Sunni's) that will affect surrounding countries. They'll be requesting help to stop it. Likewise if Iran starts moving in.

Looks like we really needed that S.o.F.A.

I remember when a timetable for withdrawal was first brought up. Many opposed it saying AQ etc would just lay low until we left following our announced deadline. Right now it's looking like they were right.

Fern

 

[EagleKeeper]

I do not think that this is AQ but inter-faith revenge again bubbling to the surface.

 

[Fern]

I do not think that this is AQ but inter-faith revenge again bubbling to the surface.

1st report I heard said AQ was suspected in the 14 bombings. That's why I added them.

I haven't checked the news lately. I suppose that's changed?

Fern

 

[JSt0rm]

The place needs to be 3 countries. Let them sort it out, no matter how painful it is. We fucked it all up and we cant put it together again. Classic humpty dumpty.

 

[Fern]

The place needs to be 3 countries. Let them sort it out, no matter how painful it is. We fucked it all up and we cant put it together again. Classic humpty dumpty.

Geographically, the Kurdish part seems easy since they're basically already segregated. However, I bet Turkey has an awful lot to say about that.

But do you propose to do about the Sunni? They're mixed in with the Shia. Friction between those seems the bigger problem atm.

Fern

 

[JSt0rm]

Geographically, the Kurdish part seems easy since they're basically already segregated. However, I bet Turkey has an awful lot to say about that.

But do you propose to do about the Sunni? They're mixed in with the Shia. Friction between those seems the bigger problem atm.

Fern

I propose nothing. Its not my problem. Let them figure it out. Our politicians have done enough "speculation on how to fix Iraq" for 10 life times. Its up to those people to do what they want.

 

[Fern]

I propose nothing. Its not my problem. Let them figure it out. Our politicians have done enough "speculation on how to fix Iraq" for 10 life times. Its up to those people to do what they want.

Was that your position on the Libyan violence?

Fern

 

[JSt0rm]

Was that your position on the Libyan violence?

Fern

No.

If you dont know the difference between the 2 conflicts then I dont know what to tell you.

 

[JSt0rm]

oh and I still find it laughable you fucks think there is a comparison.

 

[Nebor]

oh and I still find it laughable you fucks think there is a comparison.

They were the exact same situation. An evil despot was murdering his people and the United States stepped up to the plate, alone and unafraid, and kicked the snot out of the despot over the objections of liberals & the international community, bringing democracy to a place that hasn't seen it in decades. Oh, and they both have oil.

 

[JSt0rm]

They were the exact same situation. An evil despot was murdering his people and the United States stepped up to the plate, alone and unafraid, and kicked the snot out of the despot over the objections of liberals & the international community, bringing democracy to a place that hasn't seen it in decades. Oh, and they both have oil.

No they wernt. The libyan people stood up and began to fight them. The ball was already rolling we just pushed it along a bit.

What bush jr did was try to push a boulder up a hill. there was no "arab spring" moveing against Saddam. We tried to create something and ended up being hated.

No they are completely different and you are brutally honest enough, you should admit it.

 

[Nebor]

No they wernt. The libyan people stood up and began to fight them. The ball was already rolling we just pushed it along a bit.

What bush jr did was try to push a boulder up a hill. there was no "arab spring" moveing against Saddam. We tried to create something and ended up being hated.

No they are completely different and you are brutally honest enough, you should admit it.

There was an uprising against Saddam similar to the Arab Spring (in 1991 IIRC,) it just took us a little while to pull together the support the Iraqi people were asking for.

 

[Fern]

No.

If you dont know the difference between the 2 conflicts then I dont know what to tell you.

You're confused.

I'm not talking about going into Iraq in the 1st place.

I was talking about what we're gonna do if sectarian violence breaks out now.

When the violence broke out in Libya you guys said we had to intervene for humanitarian purposes. You appear to be saying if it does break out in Iraq then we shouldn't do anything.

Please reconcile that.

Fern

 

[JSt0rm]

You're confused.

I'm not talking about going into Iraq in the 1st place.

I was talking about what we're gonna do if sectarian violence breaks out now.

When the violence broke out in Libya you guys said we had to intervene for humanitarian purposes. You appear to be saying if it does break out in Iraq then we shouldn't do anything.

Please reconcile that.

Fern

I never said we should intervene for humanitarian reasons. It was smart STRATEGY to intervene and help the opposing force during what was a civil war. A smart move. Iraq was idiocy from day one.

 

[JSt0rm]

There was an uprising against Saddam similar to the Arab Spring (in 1991 IIRC,) it just took us a little while to pull together the support the Iraqi people were asking for.

Thats a lie. we went in and then pulled out. 10 years later if the people began a uprising THEN maybe then we should provide air support and weapon support to help remove who we deem a threat. We didnt do that though. We did what war profiteers wanted. A long drawn out war with no end in sight.

 

[JSt0rm]

and thats all there is.

As much as you repugs want to give obama a fuck up like katrina or iraq it isnt so. You do this to try and feel better about voting for such a fuck up as bush but it wont change that fact. Nothing will. Its going to go down in the history books as one of If not the worst presidency ever and you voted for it. What does that say about your abilities to make judgements?

 

[Nebor]

Thats a lie. we went in and then pulled out. 10 years later if the people began a uprising THEN maybe then we should provide air support and weapon support to help remove who we deem a threat. We didnt do that though. We did what war profiteers wanted. A long drawn out war with no end in sight.

Really? The uprising of 1991 is a lie? Tell that to the tens of thousands of Iraqis that were killed by Sadam's army during that fictional uprising.

We wanted to help them, but our military was tuckered out from chasing Saddam out of Kuwait. So we were gathering our strength to help them out, but then there were some huge military cuts in the mid-90s, that was a huge set back. Finally we got the military back up to fighting strength and went in to help the Iraqi uprising in 2003, but we were dismayed to realize that it had ended almost a decade prior to our arrival. Nevertheless, we brought them the democracy that they so dearly desired.

 

[JSt0rm]

Links to back up we were tired? I think your assertion is false.

 

[JSt0rm]

Also if this was the reason to return to Iraq why wasn't this proposed to the un?

Face it. You are trying to revise history

 

[Nebor]

Also if this was the reason to return to Iraq why wasn't this proposed to the un?

Face it. You are trying to revise history

Face it, I'm just messing with you. We didn't have any business in Iraq, or Libya. And we shouldn't still be occupying Afghanistan.