Texas school district letting teachers carry guns

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,517
223
106
Originally posted by: grrl
Your response is specious. People will know that some teachers have a concealed weapon, so how does that reality (and necessity) make it more like a school?
How does it make it less like a school? Unless, of course, you follow the inherently flawed doctrine of 'gun free zones are safe', and 'schools should be gun free zones'...in which case you are obviously incapable of thinking about it logically.

I've carried on school property/in school. They were none the wiser. Would you panic if you knew how many people were carrying concealed firearms all around you, in your ordinary everyday life? Why doesn't that knowledge make it 'less like a movie theater', 'less like a restaurant', 'less like a grocery store', etc?

Originally posted by: grrl
You are assuming that Librescu would be armed, which would be a matter of choice for him. If he had had the option and declined, then nothing would have been different at Virginia Tech.
If he had had the option and accepted, then something may have been different. However, due to people with your mindset, we'll never know- and people still died.

Originally posted by: grrl
Why do you equate handgun training with training for a life/death situation? Does that really include the necessary elements of police training?
Think about it, grrl. Dozens of police officers are killed every year by people without your "necessary elements of police training." Don't underestimate the capability of a legally armed citizen.

Originally posted by: grrl
Yes, I'm saying license to carry a concealed weapon does not guarantee the ability to effectively employ the weapon.
Perhaps not- but your chances are a hell of a lot better than having nothing.

Edit: You don't even live here. Why don't you give that a shot first before you tell us how we should run things?
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,246
207
106
I like how 3/4 of the people in this thread think this is a great idea and have pwnd the OP time after time, yet he's still trying.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,517
223
106
Originally posted by: ADDAvenger
I like how 3/4 of the people in this thread think this is a great idea and have pwnd the OP time after time, yet he's still trying.

Some people never learn. :(
 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,047
18
81
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: classy
Something is wrong with allowing teachers to bring guns to school. We have teachers having sex with students through coersion now, next it will be through the threat of a gun. Put in metal detectors, but for god sakes not allow teachers to use guns. I wouldn't allow my child to go to school there. Teachers should be setting an example. If its too dangerous for you to teach without a gun, find another line of work. I don't believe the safety of my child is improved by anyone carrying a gun in school, unless they are police officers.

I don't always agree with classy, but I agree 100% with this. My fiance is a school teacher. If she was to the point where she felt threatened in her line of work, I sure as hell wouldn't want her working there. If you have to bring a gun to your place of work -- a school no less -- to feel safe or gun down a student who may be packing, find another line of work. I swear, this country is going to shit -- we need guns to solve every problem.


And I LOVE to listen to idiots that think that a licensed gun owner is the ANSWER to EVERY school shooting, workplace shooting, bus stabbing, etc.

"If so-in-so had a gun there, they would have been able to diffuse the situation at hand with no problems."

BULLSHIT! I haven't heard one of you fools give a real-life personal account of something like that actually going down [in a place that otherwise would be considered a crime-free environment].

Your fiance teaches elementary school, right? I'd hope she wouldn't be afraid of kids.

And secondly, I bet the folks at VT didn't feel threatened on a daily basis. Same goes for Columbine or Jonesboro.

Sure, there are some idiots out there who think a gun is the answer for every problem, and they're nuts.

You know why you can't find many if any real life accounts of something like that going down? So many of the places it happens are gun free zones. So the people who follow the law obviously don't bring their weapon onto the premises.

GIVE me one good reason why a person with a CCL and carrying wouldn't improve the situations discussed in this thread.

 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: Dari
Now imagine if the teacher is incapacitated and the gun is available for the taking...
That's one school district I won't be sending my kids. Home schooling sounds better everyday.

i'd imagine that kind of kid probably has easier ways of getting a gun:p
 

James3shin

Diamond Member
Apr 5, 2004
4,426
0
76
I must have my stupid goggles on, tell me again, what's wrong with this? Good for Texas!
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,149
57
91
Originally posted by: grrl
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: grrl
This is seriously messed up.

It's seriously messed up that Teachers haven't been armed all along.

So many deaths would've been prevented over the last decade or so from Columbine to Virginia Tech and everything in between.

It only takes one bullet to take out a shooter but if no one is armed against that shooter he or she can take out as many as they have bullets.

Amazing that so many don't get that until they are staring down the end of a gun barrel and then wished they had a gun.

Have you ever been in that position? I find it hard to believe a teacher, even if trained in handgun use, would have the state of mind to so simply end a situation like Columbine or Virginia Tech.
There are a lot of dead kid's parents who would love for a teacher to have had the option to end things.

I think that a teacher who is the type of person to WANT a CCL and own a pistol, would have no problem employing their weapon to stop a mass murderer of students he/she is entrusted with keeping safe.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Originally posted by: grrl
Originally posted by: grrl
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: grrl
This is seriously messed up.

It's seriously messed up that Teachers haven't been armed all along.

So many deaths would've been prevented over the last decade or so from Columbine to Virginia Tech and everything in between.

It only takes one bullet to take out a shooter but if no one is armed against that shooter he or she can take out as many as they have bullets.

Amazing that so many don't get that until they are staring down the end of a gun barrel and then wished they had a gun.

Have you ever been in that position? I find it hard to believe a teacher, even if trained in handgun use, would have the state of mind to so simply end a situation like Columbine or Virginia Tech.

Oh really?

That's one example, I asked earlier for links and this is all that's been provided so far. In that story, the teacher stopped the gunman outside in the parking lot, the teacher did not have to enter a room crowded with many students and two gunmen (i.e. Columbine).

Students have jumped a gunman- getting shot in the process. You're saying a teacher, who already carries a concealed firearm when not at school, would not have the capability to address a threat?

Links?

Yes, I'm saying license to carry a concealed weapon does not guarantee the ability to effectively employ the weapon.


Originally posted by: grrl
Originally posted by: TehMac
Originally posted by: grrl
Originally posted by: CPA
Good! So OP, I'm wondering what your brilliant plan would be for the school to protect itself.

I realize wishing the problem didn't exist means nothing, but I don't see arming teachers as the solution. If weapons are a problem I'd suggest security guards and metal detectors as a start. The whole situation is just quite fucked up IMO.

And how are metal detectors and security guards going to give the impression that the school is for learning, not a juvenile detention facility.

And allowing concealed weapons does otherwise? :confused:

Perhaps you should look up the definition of the word "concealed."
Your response is specious. People will know that some teachers have a concealed weapon, so how does that reality (and necessity) make it more like a school?


Originally posted by: DrPizza

Look at the well publicized case of the professor Librescu who barricaded the door with his own body at Virginia Tech so that his students would have more time to escape. Do you really think that he wouldn't have drawn his weapon had he had one in order to protect his students? While I don't think a teacher would necessarily go hunting down the hallway for a shooter, I find it unreasonable to believe even for a moment that a teacher trained in handgun use would panic and not be able to protect his classroom from a shooter.

You are assuming that Librescu would be armed, which would be a matter of choice for him. If he had had the option and declined, then nothing would have been different at Virginia Tech.

Why do you equate handgun training with training for a life/death situation? Does that really include the necessary elements of police training?

[/quote]
What on earth are you talking about - police training?? Handgun training has little to do with "life/death" situations. The purpose of handgun training and practice is to develop familiarity with the weapon and a high degree of comfort/confidence in using that weapon. Ask someone who's never held a power tool before to pick up a chainsaw and cut a log in half. You're going to be waiting for a while, and when (if) they ever get close to carrying out the task, you'll see a complete look of fear in their faces. Hopefully, they hold the chainsaw correctly so they don't risk injury to themselves. That's essentially what the handgun training is - if someone's in a situation that actually is life/death, the last thing they need to do is direct their attention to figuring out how to use their gun. In my bizarre analogy to chainsaws, suppose a tree fell on your friend & a chainsaw was sitting on the ground next to her. It was a matter of life or death to get that tree off as quickly as possible. Someone comfortable with a chainsaw would have it started before you even finished reading my last sentence. Someone unfamiliar would be panicking because now there's even more stress - in addition to their friend being injured, they'd have the stress of figuring out how to properly use that chainsaw. And, that's perhaps why you have a hard time believing someone with a CCL would react properly - because you're unfamiliar with firearms, therefore think that everyone is going to share your trepidation.

As far as whether or not the situation at Virginia Tech would have been the same if Librescu wasn't armed? I don't agree. In fact, isn't it possible that the simple knowledge that some of the professors were carrying may have been enough to cause Cho to change his mind about his plans? Funny - every time there's a tragedy like this, it seems to occur in places where the perpetrator knows his victims will be helpless.

Forbidding people who have earned the right to concealed carry their weapon is just that - forcing them to be nearly completely helpless if such a situation should ever occur again.
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
5
81
I think it's amazing how many idiots seem to forget that you have to go through a yearly training course and get a special permit to be able to carry a concealed weapon in the first place. All this school district has done has expanded the existing concealed carry law slightly.

Look, if I'm going to commit a murder, why would I bother going through all this crap legally? Why would I spend money on proper training and buy a gun legally when I could just find some dude on the street, buy a gun that way (much cheaper), skip the whole "tell the government I own a gun" part, and then go on a shooting spree? The people who tend to commit these crimes aren't going to spend that much time plotting them out.
 

grrl

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
6,204
1
0
Originally posted by: JLee
Originally posted by: grrl
Your response is specious. People will know that some teachers have a concealed weapon, so how does that reality (and necessity) make it more like a school?
How does it make it less like a school? Unless, of course, you follow the inherently flawed doctrine of 'gun free zones are safe', and 'schools should be gun free zones'...in which case you are obviously incapable of thinking about it logically.

You're very good at assuming things, JLee. Yes, I'm not logical, because the answer is so obvious. :roll: Taken literally, those two doctrines are certainly true, but we don't live in such a simple world. What bothers me most about armed teachers is it adds another element of uncertainty. Yes, such a teacher could very well prevent a shooting, but what if that teacher is unstable, or as another poster suggested, their gun is seized by someone else? It's not an impossibility, just because the weapon is concealed, doesn't mean it will forever be a secret.

I've carried on school property/in school. They were none the wiser. Would you panic if you knew how many people were carrying concealed firearms all around you, in your ordinary everyday life? Why doesn't that knowledge make it 'less like a movie theater', 'less like a restaurant', 'less like a grocery store', etc?

I wouldn't panic, in fact, from some recent threads here I've gotten a better idea of how common it is. That doesn't bother me. Your other question though is harder to answer. All I can say is having guns makes it less like other public places because there is on reason schools shouldn't be obviously safe places. You can't control what happens in the general public, but can better control things in the microcosm of a school. That IS an expectation of many, but maybe I'm old-fashioned for thinking that way.

Originally posted by: grrl
You are assuming that Librescu would be armed, which would be a matter of choice for him. If he had had the option and declined, then nothing would have been different at Virginia Tech.
If he had had the option and accepted, then something may have been different. However, due to people with your mindset, we'll never know- and people still died.

Yes, assume you know my mindset and place blame on me, because we all KNOW that had Librescu been armed he would have downed Choi, one shot dead center to the forehead. Considering how random the VTech shooting was, for your theory to work in practice many, many people would have to be armed, many more than currently are. However, arguing the pros and cons of carrying guns is always circular. It's not as simple as 'when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns' or unproven claims that criminals will think twice if they believe their victim is armed. If that was true, the death penalty would be a deterent, which it is not.



Originally posted by: grrl
Why do you equate handgun training with training for a life/death situation? Does that really include the necessary elements of police training?
Think about it, grrl. Dozens of police officers are killed every year by people without your "necessary elements of police training." Don't underestimate the capability of a legally armed citizen.

That argument could go either way, if so many officers are being killed, how are half-trained civilians better equipped?


Originally posted by: grrl
Yes, I'm saying license to carry a concealed weapon does not guarantee the ability to effectively employ the weapon.
Perhaps not- but your chances are a hell of a lot better than having nothing.

Edit: You don't even live here. Why don't you give that a shot first before you tell us how we should run things?

Fuck you, I'm American, so I have say. If I wasn't, I would have said that up front (and wouldn't care).
 

grrl

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
6,204
1
0
Originally posted by: ADDAvenger
I like how 3/4 of the people in this thread think this is a great idea and have pwnd the OP time after time, yet he's still trying.

Did you learn rejoinders like that in debate club? Add something useful or shut up. Like prove how I've been pawned. List 5 points that I'm irrefutably wrong on.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
What's the problem? It's not like they let just anybody be a teacher.
 

grrl

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
6,204
1
0
Originally posted by: DrPizza

As far as whether or not the situation at Virginia Tech would have been the same if Librescu wasn't armed? I don't agree. In fact, isn't it possible that the simple knowledge that some of the professors were carrying may have been enough to cause Cho to change his mind about his plans? Funny - every time there's a tragedy like this, it seems to occur in places where the perpetrator knows his victims will be helpless.

Forbidding people who have earned the right to concealed carry their weapon is just that - forcing them to be nearly completely helpless if such a situation should ever occur again.


First, I know how to handle a firearm, although I don't own one. So I understand your analogy, but I still see a difference between knowing how to handle a weapon and knowing how to use it in a life/death situation, as opposed to hunting or on a firing range. Knowing how to use the weapon simplifies matters in a stressful situation, but you also need to know how to handle the situation, that's why I compared it to law enforcement. Soldiers are trained better than most civilian gun owners, yet it's not uncommon for them to freeze when it's truly time to kill someone. That's my point and at the root of my skepticism of those who think armed teachers is so obviously effective. I really don't think it's that incomprehensible an idea.

The second part of your response I replied to earlier. I'll just add that the truly insane don't think about consequences, so I don't believe carrying a gun is a deterent. Maybe, maybe, it would deter so punk thief or rapist, but the truth is, most people ARE helpless, especially in public. But is becoming a fully armed nation really the only solution? (semi-rhetorical question)

 

grrl

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
6,204
1
0
Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
All this school district has done has expanded the existing concealed carry law slightly.

True, but what if a majority of parents are opposed? Does this become another area of litigation, like the teaching of 'intelligent design' along side evolution?

 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: CrazyLazy
If anyone tried to get the teacher in trouble for doing threatening them it would be a students word vs. a teachers.

Doesn't matter. An accusation of brandishing is sufficient to suspend a concealed carry permit until the investigation is completed and the person is cleared.

Also, remember that a person must pass a proficiency test as well as submit to fingerprinting, a criminal background check, and a mental health background check before being awarded a concealed carry permit. This strawman of every teacher being given a handgun is ridiculous.

ZV
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: grrl
First, I know how to handle a firearm, although I don't own one. So I understand your analogy, but I still see a difference between knowing how to handle a weapon and knowing how to use it in a life/death situation, as opposed to hunting or on a firing range. Knowing how to use the weapon simplifies matters in a stressful situation, but you also need to know how to handle the situation, that's why I compared it to law enforcement. Soldiers are trained better than most civilian gun owners, yet it's not uncommon for them to freeze when it's truly time to kill someone. That's my point and at the root of my skepticism of those who think armed teachers is so obviously effective. I really don't think it's that incomprehensible an idea.

Statistically, police officers hit innocent bystanders 11% of the time. Persons with concealed carry permits hit innocent bystanders 2% of the time. You're more than 5 times safer when a civilian is firing than when a police officer is. (Source: C. Cramer, and D. Kopel "Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws?. Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994)

Most police "handgun training" consists of a shot written test with range qualification of 1 hour every 6 months. Most civilian concealed carry permit holders practice at the range several hours per week. The simple fact is that civilian concealed carry permit holders are, in general, more proficient with their weapons than police.

ZV
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: grrl
Originally posted by: Vic
What's the problem? It's not like they let just anybody be a teacher.

LOL

Well, you got nothing, eh?

BTW, my father was a public school teacher for 35 years... with a doctorate.

He's also a lifetime Democrat, very liberal, and an NRA member with a concealed carry who is always packing.

So whatever you think you know... is wrong.
 

grrl

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
6,204
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: grrl
Originally posted by: Vic
What's the problem? It's not like they let just anybody be a teacher.

LOL

Well, you got nothing, eh?

BTW, my father was a public school teacher for 35 years... with a doctorate.

He's also a lifetime Democrat, very liberal, and an NRA member with a concealed carry who is always packing.

So whatever you think you know... is wrong.


I guess I misunderstood your joke. I laughed because in some localities the standards aren't that high.

BTW, my mother was a public school teacher for 30 years, so whatever you think you know....
 

grrl

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
6,204
1
0
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Statistically, police officers hit innocent bystanders 11% of the time. Persons with concealed carry permits hit innocent bystanders 2% of the time. You're more than 5 times safer when a civilian is firing than when a police officer is. (Source: C. Cramer, and D. Kopel "Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws?. Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994)

Most police "handgun training" consists of a shot written test with range qualification of 1 hour every 6 months. Most civilian concealed carry permit holders practice at the range several hours per week. The simple fact is that civilian concealed carry permit holders are, in general, more proficient with their weapons than police.

ZV

Very interesting.
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
this seems to really have been blown quite out of proportion...

simple fact of the matter is that the district is allowing the option for teachers to CC...and statistics are actually in favor of conceal carry