Texas Public Schools now *required* to teach the bible

[Vic]

Originally posted by: sandorski
I suspect that forcing Schools to offer this, even as an Elective, is going to cause it to Fail a Court challenge. It is clearly an attempt to backdoor a Religious view onto Schools.

Do you feel the same about Greek mythology classes?
Are those a backdoor attempt to put the religion of Zeus in schools?

And although it is somewhat important, the elective aspect is not the key issue here. It's the manner in which the class is taught that is important. And quite frankly, along with civics and politics and economic studies, religious studies are grossly under served in our public schools. And it is IMO one reason why Americans today are so freakin stupid (and yet so emotional) about such otherwise very important subjects. People who lack education are easily influenced and misled.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: OCguy
I dont mind if they teach it in some sort of historical context. It is good that people know what book makes a large chunk of Americans bat-shit crazy.

Yep. Though, I'm slightly nervous about giving the fundies a toe in the door. I'm surprised no one has introduced a slippery slope argument. Next step could be a change from elective to required.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: OCguy
I dont mind if they teach it in some sort of historical context. It is good that people know what book makes a large chunk of Americans bat-shit crazy.

Yep. Though, I'm slightly nervous about giving the fundies a toe in the door. I'm surprised no one has introduced a slippery slope argument. Next step could be a change from elective to required.

I'd have no problem with required as long as (1) the secular teaching curriculum is strictly enforced, and (2) additional required teaching time was required for other religions in a similar secular fashion.

Separation of church and state was never intended to bring about censorship.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
I suspect that forcing Schools to offer this, even as an Elective, is going to cause it to Fail a Court challenge. It is clearly an attempt to backdoor a Religious view onto Schools.

Do you feel the same about Greek mythology classes?
Are those a backdoor attempt to put the religion of Zeus in schools?

And although it is somewhat important, the elective aspect is not the key issue here. It's the manner in which the class is taught that is important. And quite frankly, along with civics and politics and economic studies, religious studies are grossly under served in our public schools. And it is IMO one reason why Americans today are so freakin stupid (and yet so emotional) about such otherwise very important subjects. People who lack education are easily influenced and misled.

No, there's no active attempt to revive Greek Religion. However, there are constant attempts to bring Christianity back into Schools.

 

[babylon5]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
I suspect that forcing Schools to offer this, even as an Elective, is going to cause it to Fail a Court challenge. It is clearly an attempt to backdoor a Religious view onto Schools.

Do you feel the same about Greek mythology classes?
Are those a backdoor attempt to put the religion of Zeus in schools?

Greek mythology isn't the same as organized religion. Not even close.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
"Texas law says all public schools must offer information relating to the Bible in their curriculum. "

I think having a law forcing public schools to have it is bullshit. Resembles something you'd see in Afghanistan or Iran except with the Quran instead of the Bible.

Damn right! We mustn't even let kids even know of the mere existence of such a book. To do so would destroy the fabric of this nation!

The bible was part of one of my high school classes in a *gasp* public school :Q Oh The HORRORS!!!!

The Bible played a major role in history whether or not you agree with what it says. Deal with it. And if any school deviates and uses it as an evil brainwashing course, we'll be against it if it happens, where it happens. But until then, this whole thread is pretty slim pickings against this.

If Christian kids don't know of the Bible, their Parents and Chursh are Failing.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: OCguy
I dont mind if they teach it in some sort of historical context. It is good that people know what book makes a large chunk of Americans bat-shit crazy.

Yep. Though, I'm slightly nervous about giving the fundies a toe in the door. I'm surprised no one has introduced a slippery slope argument. Next step could be a change from elective to required.

I'd have no problem with required as long as (1) the secular teaching curriculum is strictly enforced, and (2) additional required teaching time was required for other religions in a similar secular fashion.

Separation of church and state was never intended to bring about censorship.

Of course. Knowledge about any subject is good - if only to show a person what not to do. The part I wouldn't trust with some is cheating on the secular part.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
I suspect that forcing Schools to offer this, even as an Elective, is going to cause it to Fail a Court challenge. It is clearly an attempt to backdoor a Religious view onto Schools.

Do you feel the same about Greek mythology classes?
Are those a backdoor attempt to put the religion of Zeus in schools?

And although it is somewhat important, the elective aspect is not the key issue here. It's the manner in which the class is taught that is important. And quite frankly, along with civics and politics and economic studies, religious studies are grossly under served in our public schools. And it is IMO one reason why Americans today are so freakin stupid (and yet so emotional) about such otherwise very important subjects. People who lack education are easily influenced and misled.

wow, vic on the side of reason for a change.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Finally the State of texas got something right!!!!!

 

[Ackmed]

The OP is a troll. You said, "Texas Public Schools now *required* to teach the bible ". Then posted, that it is an option, not a requirement. You fail, sorry.

 

[sandorski]

nmd

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: babylon5

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
I suspect that forcing Schools to offer this, even as an Elective, is going to cause it to Fail a Court challenge. It is clearly an attempt to backdoor a Religious view onto Schools.

Do you feel the same about Greek mythology classes?
Are those a backdoor attempt to put the religion of Zeus in schools?

Greek mythology isn't the same as organized religion. Not even close.

So what are you saying? That Christianity is more valid than Greek mythology?

 

[PrinceofWands]

Welcome to the end of civilization. Last one out gets the check.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: lupi
wow, vic on the side of reason for a change.

I'm always on the side of reason, it's you who consistently lets partisanship cloud your judgment. I could make that exact same logical argument on an entirely different issue and you would disagree if that's what your partisanship told you to do.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
The OP is a troll. You said, "Texas Public Schools now *required* to teach the bible ". Then posted, that it is an option, not a requirement. You fail, sorry.

Ah, student attendence is an option, not the school's, they have to have the class and teach the class as dictated.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
I suspect that forcing Schools to offer this, even as an Elective, is going to cause it to Fail a Court challenge. It is clearly an attempt to backdoor a Religious view onto Schools.

Do you feel the same about Greek mythology classes?
Are those a backdoor attempt to put the religion of Zeus in schools?

And although it is somewhat important, the elective aspect is not the key issue here. It's the manner in which the class is taught that is important. And quite frankly, along with civics and politics and economic studies, religious studies are grossly under served in our public schools. And it is IMO one reason why Americans today are so freakin stupid (and yet so emotional) about such otherwise very important subjects. People who lack education are easily influenced and misled.

Hay vic, why not call the class "Introduction to Human Superstition & Mythology 101". Truthiness at its' best! I would require my grandkids to take the class.

 

[monovillage]

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: monovillage
Sorry, but i'm still looking for someplace in the U.S. Constitution that allows the Feds any say in public schools whatsoever. I can find the 10TH Amendment which seems to give Texas the Right to include what they want in their curriculum.

The phrase "separation of church and state" is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

Part of what Jefferson meant in using the term ?separation of church and state? is that church would be protected from interference by the government. The Establishment Clause is, however, a two way street. And it?s not so much that the government needs protection from the church either. It?s that the governed need protection from churches attempting to work through government to promote religious agendas. In other words, separation of church and state is guaranteed in order to protect the freedom of conscience of each individual as well as each church

It is entirely beside the point that the phrase ?separation of church and state? doesn?t appear in the Constitution or Bill of Rights. It doesn?t have to. Jefferson used the term to describe what the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment did. That?s also what James Madison, the guy who actually wrote the Establishment Clause, was doing when he used the same phrase a couple years after Jefferson. This was a great thing those founding fathers put their lives on the line for. It gave everyone the same kind of protection from what Madison called ?the tyranny of the majority? in matters of freedom of conscience. It provided a level playing field where all ideas on religion can compete freely for the hearts and minds of people. It is an idea in which the United States will forever be the first nation in history to enshrine in law. It is worth celebrating. It is worth being thankful for.

I don't agree with it, although i see your point. Now just show me where it says the Fed Gov has any say in State schools.

 

[Modelworks]

All those quoting the founding fathers, do you realize that they would be appalled at the way the subject of religion is treated in modern society ? I doubt they could even comprehend that people would move so far from belief in God to even consider what people are proposing they meant. It would be comparable to them considering gay marriage a right in 1800. That they were advocating the complete removal of God in every form from the government is absurd.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Hay vic, why not call the class "Introduction to Human Superstition & Mythology 101". Truthiness at its' best! I would require my grandkids to take the class.

Calling it 'religious studies' would mean the same thing to me. The study of history and the ability to build upon the knowledge of previous generations is what separates humans from other animals, and the cognizance to be able to recognize that not all things are knowable is what makes a person wise. IOW, religious studies have value. And quite frankly, IMO a person should have read the Bible in order to be either a person-of-faith or a skeptic. A person should know what they're arguing against as much as they know what they're arguing for.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Originally posted by: monovillage

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: monovillage
Sorry, but i'm still looking for someplace in the U.S. Constitution that allows the Feds any say in public schools whatsoever. I can find the 10TH Amendment which seems to give Texas the Right to include what they want in their curriculum.

The phrase "separation of church and state" is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

Part of what Jefferson meant in using the term ?separation of church and state? is that church would be protected from interference by the government. The Establishment Clause is, however, a two way street. And it?s not so much that the government needs protection from the church either. It?s that the governed need protection from churches attempting to work through government to promote religious agendas. In other words, separation of church and state is guaranteed in order to protect the freedom of conscience of each individual as well as each church

It is entirely beside the point that the phrase ?separation of church and state? doesn?t appear in the Constitution or Bill of Rights. It doesn?t have to. Jefferson used the term to describe what the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment did. That?s also what James Madison, the guy who actually wrote the Establishment Clause, was doing when he used the same phrase a couple years after Jefferson. This was a great thing those founding fathers put their lives on the line for. It gave everyone the same kind of protection from what Madison called ?the tyranny of the majority? in matters of freedom of conscience. It provided a level playing field where all ideas on religion can compete freely for the hearts and minds of people. It is an idea in which the United States will forever be the first nation in history to enshrine in law. It is worth celebrating. It is worth being thankful for.

I don't agree with it, although i see your point. Now just show me where it says the Fed Gov has any say in State schools.

The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, Section 1:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Through the interpretation of the Supreme Court known as the Incorporation Doctrine, this Amendment applies the Rights specified in the Bill of Rights at the state level.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: CallMeJoe

Originally posted by: monovillage

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: monovillage
Sorry, but i'm still looking for someplace in the U.S. Constitution that allows the Feds any say in public schools whatsoever. I can find the 10TH Amendment which seems to give Texas the Right to include what they want in their curriculum.

The phrase "separation of church and state" is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

Part of what Jefferson meant in using the term ?separation of church and state? is that church would be protected from interference by the government. The Establishment Clause is, however, a two way street. And it?s not so much that the government needs protection from the church either. It?s that the governed need protection from churches attempting to work through government to promote religious agendas. In other words, separation of church and state is guaranteed in order to protect the freedom of conscience of each individual as well as each church

It is entirely beside the point that the phrase ?separation of church and state? doesn?t appear in the Constitution or Bill of Rights. It doesn?t have to. Jefferson used the term to describe what the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment did. That?s also what James Madison, the guy who actually wrote the Establishment Clause, was doing when he used the same phrase a couple years after Jefferson. This was a great thing those founding fathers put their lives on the line for. It gave everyone the same kind of protection from what Madison called ?the tyranny of the majority? in matters of freedom of conscience. It provided a level playing field where all ideas on religion can compete freely for the hearts and minds of people. It is an idea in which the United States will forever be the first nation in history to enshrine in law. It is worth celebrating. It is worth being thankful for.

I don't agree with it, although i see your point. Now just show me where it says the Fed Gov has any say in State schools.

The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, Section 1:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Through the interpretation of the Supreme Court known as the Incorporation Doctrine, this Amendment applies the Rights specified in the Bill of Rights at the state level.

How or rather, in what way are you presenting Gideon v. Wainwright regarding the post you quoted? Gideon does not empower the Federal Government to do anything but rather restricts the States in the manner the BoR restricts the Federal Government...
I'm asking cuz I don't understand the use of Gideon to the post quoted - not in disagreement.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: Ackmed
The OP is a troll. You said, "Texas Public Schools now *required* to teach the bible ". Then posted, that it is an option, not a requirement. You fail, sorry.

Ah, student attendence is an option, not the school's, they have to have the class and teach the class as dictated.

no no no no no no no.

jesus christ i think everyone has stopped reading around here. it's not like i didn't post the attorney general's opinion on the matter a few pages back. just skip to the last post in the thread and reply to it. might as well have just been a skoorb effect.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
All those quoting the founding fathers, do you realize that they would be appalled at the way the subject of religion is treated in modern society ? I doubt they could even comprehend that people would move so far from belief in God to even consider what people are proposing they meant. It would be comparable to them considering gay marriage a right in 1800. That they were advocating the complete removal of God in every form from the government is absurd.

I think the opposite.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
How or rather, in what way are you presenting Gideon v. Wainwright regarding the post you quoted? Gideon does not empower the Federal Government to do anything but rather restricts the States in the manner the BoR restricts the Federal Government...
I'm asking cuz I don't understand the use of Gideon to the post quoted - not in disagreement.

I've not read every post in this thread in detail, so I'm not sure where Gideon v. Wainwright comes into it; I do know that it is through the Incorporation Doctrine that the First Amendment (among others) is applied at the state level, preventing actions that comprise an Establishment of Religion at the State as well as Federal level.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: ElFenix
i'm trying to figure out where it says a district has to offer the class.

SECTION 3. Section 28.002(a), Education Code, is amended to read as follows:
(a) Each school district that offers kindergarten through grade 12 shalloffer, as a required curriculum:
(1) a foundation curriculum that includes:
(A) English language arts;
(B) mathematics;
(C) science; and
(D) social studies, consisting of Texas, United States, and world history, government, and geography; and
(2) an enrichment curriculum that includes:
(A) to the extent possible, languages other than English;
(B) health, with emphasis on the importance of proper nutrition and exercise;
(C) physical education;
(D) fine arts;
(E) economics, with emphasis on the free enterprise system and its benefits;
(F) career and technology education; [and]
(G) technology applications; and
(H) religious literature, including the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and New Testament, and its impact on history and literature.

OMG!!!! We are teaching them about the free enterprise system too!!!!

This means they will grow up to be capitalists!!!!

How can we let this happen? We must also teach them communism and socialism and all the wonderful benefits of those systems too.