Texas government being idiots

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,249
55,798
136
That is irrelevant to my example. Lets try Obama signing a treaty with France restricting state speed limits to 40 mph.

Treaties signed with other countries and ratified by the Senate have the full force of federal law, and federal law trumps state law. A signed and ratified treaty is exactly the same thing as a law passed by both houses and signed by the president.

Your original question about signing a treaty with England to 'crush gun rights' all depends. Treaties can't supersede the Constitution, but the federal government already has the power to enact weapons restrictions. So long as the treaty provisions didn't run afoul of the Constitution, sure they can do it. What Texas law says is irrelevant.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
8,301
2,397
136
I suppose we need to update miranda verbiage for all the legal and illegal non-citizens.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say or do can and will be held against you in the court of law. You have the right to speak to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. You have a right to speak to your consulate if you are not a citizen of the United States. Do you understand these rights as they have been read to you?
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
So his last statement was admitting guilt

"“I’ve hurt a lot of people,” Leal said, according to the Item, “I know Christ has forgiven me, and I accept his forgiveness. I am sorry for the victim’s family for what I did. May they forgive me. Let’s get this show on the road, Warden.”

/thread
So what? Defendants still need to be given a FAIR trial or they could appeal on that basis and probably win. Best case scenario is the defendant is retried and found guilty. Worst case is the defendant walks free on the "technicality". Might not have mattered in this case but in other cases.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Maybe this will help in your understanding: Perry's response and reasons why SCOTUS in favor of Texas

Pillay also cited a 2004 International Court of Justice ruling saying the U.S. must review and reconsider the cases of 51 Mexican nationals sentenced to death, including Leal's. In 2005, President George W. Bush agreed with the ruling but the U.S. Supreme Court later overruled Bush.

"Texas is not bound by a foreign court's ruling," Cesinger said. "The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2008 that the treaty was not binding on the states and that the president does not have the authority to order states to review cases of the then 51 foreign nationals on death row in the U.S."

In its ruling Thursday, about an hour before Leal's execution, the Supreme Court's majority opinion pointed to the IJC decision, saying it's been seven years since then and three years since the previous Texas death penalty case that raised similar consular legal access issues.
If a statute implementing the provisions of the international court ruling "had genuinely been a priority for the political branches, it would have been enacted by now," the majority ruling said.

Had the White House and dissenting justices been worried about "the grave international consequences that will follow from Leal's execution ... Congress evidently did not find these consequences sufficiently grave to prompt its enactment of implementing legislation, and we will follow the law as written by Congress," the ruling continued.

Leal's appeals lawyers had pinned their hopes on legislation introduced in the Senate last month that applied to the Vienna Convention provisions and said Leal should have a reprieve so the measure could make its way through the legislative process.
Similar bills have failed twice in recent congressional sessions.

"Our task is to rule on what the law is, not what it might eventually be," the court said.


Let me add to this post by providing a link which is has the full text of the ruling handed down by USSC in 2008. This ruling was based on another case which involved a Mexican citizen who committed murder along with his gang member friends. The scum bag and his buddies raped and murdered 2 girls (ages 14 and 16) in Texas. In the 2008 ruling the treaty being cited for the appeal is as the USSC "Not US law" because it was not written in such a manner that it would be self-enacting and neither was there any legislation by Congress that made the treaty part of US law. Further more the ICJ rulings are not valid because they do not supersede US law unless Congress acts to make those rulings into law. Of course the US is not alone in this respect because of the 47 nations which acknowledged the ICJ ruling in regards to the dispute over this treaty and the 107 that are members of the Vienna Convention none (including Mexico) allow these ICJ rulings to override their own domestic laws.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/06-984.ZS.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/06/w...0Pena (16), and Jennifer Ertman (14). &st=cse

In the Case Concerning Avena and Other Mexican Nationals (Mex. v. U. S.), 2004 I. C. J. 12 (Avena), the International Court of Justice (ICJ) held that the United States had violated Article 36(1)(b) of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations (Vienna Convention or Convention) by failing to inform 51 named Mexican nationals, including petitioner Medelln, of their Vienna Convention rights. The ICJ found that those named individuals were entitled to review and reconsideration of their U. S. state-court convictions and sentences regardless of their failure to comply with generally applicable state rules governing challenges to criminal convictions. In Sanchez-Llamas v. Oregon, 548 U. S. 331 —issued after Avena but involving individuals who were not named in the Avena judgment—this Court held, contrary to the ICJ’s determination, that the Convention did not preclude the application of state default rules. The President then issued a memorandum (President’s Memorandum or Memorandum) stating that the United States would “discharge its international obligations” under Avena “by having State courts give effect to the decision.”

Relying on Avena andthe President’s Memorandum, Medelln filed a second Texas state-court habeas application challenging his state capital murder conviction and death sentence on the ground that he had not been informed of his Vienna Convention rights. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals dismissed Medelln’s application as an abuse of the writ, concluding that neither Avena nor the President’s Memorandum was binding federal law that could displace the State’s limitations on filing successive habeas applications.

Held: Neither Avena nor the President’s Memorandum constitutes directly enforceable federal law that pre-empts state limitations on the filing of successive habeas petitions. Pp. 8–37.

1. The Avena judgment is not directly enforceable as domestic law in state court. Pp. 8–27.

(a) While a treaty may constitute an international commitment, it is not binding domestic law unless Congress has enacted statutes implementing it or the treaty itself conveys an intention that it be “self-executing” and is ratified on that basis. See, e.g., Foster v. Neilson, 2 Pet. 253, 314. The Avena judgment creates an international law obligation on the part of the United States, but it is not automatically binding domestic law because none of the relevant treaty sources—the Optional Protocol, the U. N. Charter, or the ICJ Statute—creates binding federal law in the absence of implementing legislation, and no such legislation has been enacted.

The most natural reading of the Optional Protocol is that it is a bare grant of jurisdiction. The Protocol says nothing about the effect of an ICJ decision, does not commit signatories to comply therewith, and is silent as to any enforcement mechanism. The obligation to comply with ICJ judgments is derived from Article 94 of the U. N. Charter, which provides that “[e]ach … Member … undertakes to comply with the [ICJ’s] decision … in any case to which it is a party.” The phrase “undertakes to comply” is simply a commitment by member states to take future action through their political branches. That language does not indicate that the Senate, in ratifying the Optional Protocol, intended to vest ICJ decisions with immediate legal effect in domestic courts.

This reading is confirmed by Article 94(2)—the enforcement provision—which provides the sole remedy for noncompliance: referral to the U. N. Security Council by an aggrieved state. The provision of an express diplomatic rather than judicial remedy is itself evidence that ICJ judgments were not meant to be enforceable in domestic courts. See Sanchez-Llamas, 548 U. S., at 347. Even this “quintessentially international remed[y],” id., at 355, is not absolute. It requires a Security Council resolution, and the President and Senate were undoubtedly aware that the United States retained the unqualified right to exercise its veto of any such resolution. Medelln’s construction would eliminate the option of noncompliance contemplated by Article 94(2), undermining the ability of the political branches to determine whether and how to comply with an ICJ judgment.

The ICJ Statute, by limiting disputes to those involving nations, not individuals, and by specifying that ICJ decisions have no binding force except between those nations, provides further evidence that the Avena judgment does not automatically constitute federal law enforceable in U. S. courts. Medelln, an individual, cannot be considered a party to the Avena decision. Finally, the United States’ interpretation of a treaty “is entitled to great weight,” Sumitomo Shoji America, Inc. v. Avagliano, 457 U. S., at 184–185, and the Executive Branch has unfailingly adhered to its view that the relevant treaties do not create domestically enforceable federal law. Pp. 8–17.

(b) The foregoing interpretive approach—parsing a treaty’s text to determine if it is self-executing—is hardly novel. This Court has long looked to the language of a treaty to determine whether the President who negotiated it and the Senate that ratified it intended for the treaty to automatically create domestically enforceable federal law. See, e.g., Foster, supra. Pp. 18–20.

(c) The Court’s conclusion that Avena does not by itself constitute binding federal law is confirmed by the “postratification understanding” of signatory countries. See Zicherman v. Korean Air Lines Co., 516 U. S. 217 . There are currently 47 nations that are parties to the Optional Protocol and 171 nations that are parties to the Vienna Convention. Yet neither Medelln nor his amici have identified a single nation that treats ICJ judgments as binding in domestic courts. The lack of any basis for supposing that any other country would treat ICJ judgments as directly enforceable as a matter of their domestic law strongly suggests that the treaty should not be so viewed in our courts. See Sanchez-Llamas, 548 U. S., at 343–344, and n. 3.

The Court’s conclusion is further supported by general principles of interpretation. Given that the forum state’s procedural rules govern a treaty’s implementation absent a clear and express statement to the contrary, see e.g., id., at 351, one would expect the ratifying parties to the relevant treaties to have clearly stated any intent to give ICJ judgments such effect. There is no statement in the Optional Protocol, the U. N. Charter, or the ICJ Statute that supports this notion. Moreover, the consequences of Medelln’s argument give pause: neither Texas nor this Court may look behind an ICJ decision and quarrel with its reasoning or result, despite this Court’s holding in Sanchez-Llamas that“[n]othing in the [ICJ’s] structure or purpose … suggests that its interpretations were intended to be conclusive on our courts.” id., at 354. Pp. 20–24.

(d) The Court’s holding does not call into question the ordinary enforcement of foreign judgments. An agreement to abide by the result of an international adjudication can be a treaty obligation like any other, so long as the agreement is consistent with the Constitution. In addition, Congress is up to the task of implementing non-self-executing treaties, even those involving complex commercial disputes. Medelln contends that domestic courts generally give effect to foreign judgments, but the judgment Medelln asks us to enforce is hardly typical: It would enjoin the operation of state law and force the State to take action to “review and reconside[r]” his case. Foreign judgments awarding injunctive relief against private parties, let alone sovereign States, “are not generally entitled to enforcement.” Restatement (Third) of Foreign Relations Law of the United States §481, Comment b, p. 595 (1986). Pp. 24–27.

2. The President’s Memorandum does not independently require the States to provide review and reconsideration of the claims of the 51 Mexican nationals named in Avena without regard to state procedural default rules. Pp. 27–37.

(a) The President seeks to vindicate plainly compelling interests in ensuring the reciprocal observance of the Vienna Convention, protecting relations with foreign governments, and demonstrating commitment to the role of international law. But those interests do not allow the Court to set aside first principles. The President’s authority to act, as with the exercise of any governmental power, “must stem either from an act of Congress or from the Constitution itself.” Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U. S. 579 .

Justice Jackson’s familiar tripartite scheme provides the accepted framework for evaluating executive action in this area. First, “[w]hen the President acts pursuant to an express or implied authorization of Congress, his authority is at its maximum, for it includes all that he possesses in his own right plus all that Congress can delegate.” Youngstown, 343 U. S., at 635 (Jackson, J., concurring). Second, “[w]hen the President acts in absence of either a congressional grant or denial of authority, he can only rely upon his own independent powers, but there is a zone of twilight in which he and Congress may have concurrent authority, or in which its distribution is uncertain.” Id., at 637. In such a circumstance, Presidential authority can derive support from “congressional inertia, indifference or quiescence.” Ibid. Finally, “[w]hen the President takes measures incompatible with the expressed or implied will of Congress, his power is at its lowest ebb,” and the Court can sustain his actions “only by disabling the Congress from acting upon the subject.” Id., at 637–638. Pp. 28–29.

(b) The United States marshals two principal arguments in favor of the President’s authority to establish binding rules of decision that preempt contrary state law. The United States argues that the relevant treaties give the President the authority to implement the Avena judgment and that Congress has acquiesced in the exercise of such authority. The United States also relies upon an “independent” international dispute-resolution power. We find these arguments, as well as Medelln’s additional argument that the President’s Memorandum is a valid exercise of his “Take Care” power, unpersuasive. Pp. 29–37.

(i) The United States maintains that the President’s Memorandum is implicitly authorized by the Optional Protocol and the U. N. Charter. But the responsibility for transforming an international obligation arising from a non-self-executing treaty into domestic law falls to Congress, not the Executive. Foster, 2 Pet., at 315. It is a fundamental constitutional principle that “ ‘[t]he power to make the necessary laws is in Congress; the power to execute in the President.’ ” Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 548 U. S. 557 . A non-self-executing treaty, by definition, is one that was ratified with the understanding that it is not to have domestic effect of its own force. That understanding precludes the assertion that Congress has implicitly authorized the President—acting on his own—to achieve precisely the same result. Accordingly, the President’s Memorandum does not fall within the first category of the Youngstown framework. Indeed, because the non-self-executing character of the relevant treaties not only refutes the notion that the ratifying parties vested the President with the authority to unilaterally make treaty obligations binding on domestic courts, but also implicitly prohibits him from doing so, the President’s assertion of authority is within Youngstown’s third category, not the first or even the second.

The United States maintains that congressional acquiescence requires that the President’s Memorandum be given effect as domestic law. But such acquiescence is pertinent when the President’s action falls within the second Youngstown category, not the third. In any event, congressional acquiescence does not exist here. Congress’ failure to act following the President’s resolution of prior ICJ controversies does not demonstrate acquiescence because in none of those prior controversies did the President assert the authority to transform an international obligation into domestic law and thereby displace state law. The United States’ reliance on the President’s “related” statutory responsibilities and on his “established role” in litigating foreign policy concerns is also misplaced. The President’s statutory authorization to represent the United States before the U. N., the ICJ, and the U. N. Security Council speaks to his international responsibilities, not to any unilateral authority to create domestic law.

The combination of a non-self-executing treaty and the lack of implementing legislation does not preclude the President from acting to comply with an international treaty obligation by other means, so long as those means are consistent with the Constitution. But the President may not rely upon a non-self-executing treaty to establish binding rules of decision that pre-empt contrary state law. Pp. 30–35.

(ii) The United States also claims that—independent of the United States’ treaty obligations—the Memorandum is a valid exercise of the President’s foreign affairs authority to resolve claims disputes. See, e.g., American Ins. Assn. v. Garamendi, 539 U. S. 396 . This Court’s claims-settlement cases involve a narrow set of circumstances: the making of executive agreements to settle civil claims between American citizens and foreign governments or foreign nationals. They are based on the view that “a systematic, unbroken, executive practice, long pursued to the knowledge of the Congress and never before questioned,” can “raise a presumption that the [action] had been [taken] in pursuance of its consent.” Dames & Moore v. Regan, 453 U. S. 654 . But “[p]ast practice does not, by itself, create power.” Ibid. The President’s Memorandum—a directive issued to state courts that would compel those courts to reopen final criminal judgments and set aside neutrally applicable state laws—is not supported by a “particularly longstanding practice.” The Executive’s limited authority to settle international claims disputes pursuant to an executive agreement cannot stretch so far. Pp. 35–37.

(iii) Medelln’s argument that the President’s Memorandum is a valid exercise of his power to “Take Care” that the laws be faithfully executed, U. S. Const., Art. II, §3, fails because the ICJ’s decision in Avena is not domestic law. P. 37.

223 S. W. 3d 315, affirmed.

Roberts, C. J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas, and Alito, JJ., joined. Stevens, J., filed an opinion concurring in the judgment. Breyer, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which Souter and Ginsburg, JJ., joined.
 
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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
So what? Defendants still need to be given a FAIR trial or they could appeal on that basis and probably win. Best case scenario is the defendant is retried and found guilty. Worst case is the defendant walks free on the "technicality". Might not have mattered in this case but in other cases.

He got a fair trial and had 17 years of appeals. That is 17 years of life his victim never got from him so fuck him and all the bleeding hearts who support and weep over a scumbag murdering rapist.
 
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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Treaties signed with other countries and ratified by the Senate have the full force of federal law, and federal law trumps state law. A signed and ratified treaty is exactly the same thing as a law passed by both houses and signed by the president.

Your original question about signing a treaty with England to 'crush gun rights' all depends. Treaties can't supersede the Constitution, but the federal government already has the power to enact weapons restrictions. So long as the treaty provisions didn't run afoul of the Constitution, sure they can do it. What Texas law says is irrelevant.

This treaty was never written as a self-executable treaty in its language and as highlight by the 2008 USSC ruling. Furthermore it was never made into law by Congress and according to the USSC in 2008 and now in 2011 what Texas says is very relevant in regards to this case.
 
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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
I suppose we need to update miranda verbiage for all the legal and illegal non-citizens.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say or do can and will be held against you in the court of law. You have the right to speak to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. You have a right to speak to your consulate if you are not a citizen of the United States. Do you understand these rights as they have been read to you?

No we don't.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,249
55,798
136
This treaty was never written as a self-executable treaty in its language and as highlight by the 2008 USSC ruling. Furthermore it was never made into law by Congress and according to the USSC in 2008 and now in 2011 what Texas says is very relevant in regards to this case.

Right. That's because the treaty was never ratified. Genx was talking about ratified treaties, which, just like federal law, override all state laws.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Right. That's because the treaty was never ratified. Genx was talking about ratified treaties, which, just like federal law, override all state laws.

Then I retract my statement made about your post since it was made out of context in regards to the side argument you both were having in this thread.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Good point. Let's hear the side of this murderer for his crime, from you.

Sorry, your point is ridiculous. You're denying that a state CAN act childisly, every.

Your argument consists of nothing but assumptions that there is some great 'side' Texas has for this - baseless assumoptions, you provide zero to back that up.

You instead just then make insults based on your assumptions.

Here's a hint for you: Bush and Obama AGREED what Texas needed to do. Does that give you some little clue that just maybe Texas doesn't have a great 'side'?

This is a governor who has a history of bad, dishonest, pandering policies - he's the one who expressed interest in secession, who ignored evidence to let what appears to be an innocent man be executed, who held a press conference to say he'll never accept stimulus money the same day he cashed a major stimulus check, who does things like moving billions in spending to be one day later in the next year's budget to 'balance' this year's.

And you say how he just has to have good reasons, but can't be bothered to say what they are, as you make attacks based on nothing.

Hardly surprising. Bush was Mexico's bitch. Obama is little different.

Doesn't really matter. SCOTUS came down on Perry's side. Until you progressives manage to replace one of the sensible justices with another Darth Bader Ginsberg and can realize your dream of celebrating Mexican rapist-murderers and jailing successful businessmen, this will remain the law of the land.

Funny how progressives insist that illegal aliens must be treated exactly like citizens until they murder someone; then they insist on special rights.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,112
1,587
126
Right. That's because the treaty was never ratified. Genx was talking about ratified treaties, which, just like federal law, override all state laws.

Actually the Senate approved the Vienna convention on October 22, 1969 and President Nixon ratified it on November 12, 1969. It is ratified, Texas violated the treaty and thus the Constitution, and the conservative SC upheld it also in violation of the Constitution.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Actually the Senate approved the Vienna convention on October 22, 1969 and President Nixon ratified it on November 12, 1969. It is ratified, Texas violated the treaty and thus the Constitution, and the conservative SC upheld it also in violation of the Constitution.

In fact, the US Senate *unanimously* ratified the treaty. Ah, the days before the radicalization of the Republican party.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
In fact, the US Senate *unanimously* ratified the treaty. Ah, the days before the radicalization of the Republican party.

The issue isn't whether this treaty was signed or not, or even about the Senate ratifying the treaty itself, the point is the Vienna treaty (along with the Optional Protocol) is not "self-executable" in its obligations without Congress creating legislation to codify those obligations in to US law. Furthermore the Vienna treaty only imposes obligations onto the US to submit disputed cases to the ICJ but even at this junction there is no agreement that those rulings would be binding and supersede US domestic law without a legislative act by Congress and that has yet to occur. All of this was stated in the decision made by the USSC in 2008 but it seems though that you consider our nation's laws and courts only to be valid and applicable when it's in line with your own political views.

http://books.google.com/books?id=x_...PA4#v=onepage&q=Avena treaty ratified&f=false

Edit: Even Hilary admits in her criticism against the 2011 case that in order to get stay of execution there needed to be an act of Congress and the intervention by the Obama administration was to buy this guy more time in a vain hope that Congress would pass legislation to save his worthless scumbag life.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/07/06/national/a144706D17.DTL

"The secretary herself is quite disappointed in the outcome in this case," Clinton's spokeswoman, Victoria Nuland, said Friday. "You know that the U.S. government sought a stay of Leal's execution in order to give the Congress time to act on the Consular Notification Compliance Act, which would have provided Leal the judicial review required by international law.

Another quote from the same article highlighted the point that this treaties obligations on States are not binding because Congress has yet to make it so via legislation.

"Texas is not bound by a foreign court's ruling," Cesinger said. "The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2008 that the treaty was not binding on the states and that the president does not have the authority to order states to review cases of the then 51 foreign nationals on death row in the U.S."

In its ruling Thursday about an hour before Leal's execution, the Supreme Court's majority opinion pointed to the IJC decision, saying it's been seven years since then and three years since the previous Texas death penalty case that raised similar consular legal access issues.

If a statute implementing the provisions of the international court ruling "had genuinely been a priority for the political branches, it would have been enacted by now," the majority ruling said.

Had the White House and dissenting justices been worried about "the grave international consequences that will follow from Leal's execution ... Congress evidently did not find these consequences sufficiently grave to prompt its enactment of implementing legislation, and we will follow the law as written by Congress," the ruling continued.

Leal's appeals lawyers had pinned their hopes on legislation introduced in the Senate last month that applied to the Vienna Convention provisions and said Leal should have a reprieve so the measure could make its way through the legislative process.

Similar bills have failed twice in recent congressional sessions.
 
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a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
A Mexican man was arrested for a terrible murder by the State of Texas.

The US has signed internal agreements that US citizens arrested abroad will be given access to US consul staff; and the US will provide foreigners it arrests access to their consulate.

Texas, in what can only be described as mindless, childish, idiocy, decided it didn't want to.

Then-President George W. Bush ordered the state he had just been governor of to follow the law. Texas refused.

Early court hearings limited the power of the federal government, until new legislation is passed, to intervene. The US government understands the risks this places on US citizens.

President Obama asked Texas to delay the execution until January. Texas said no.

The Supreme Court voted on whether to take action - and voted 5-4, on the usual lines, not to do so, and the man was executed yesterday.

Texas accomplished nothing good by their actions. They have dishonored the word of the United States and given foreign countries the justification not to honor US rights.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/07/07-2

(This is the same state and governor who executed what evidence strongly shows was an innocent man, ignoring evidence.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barry-scheck/innocent-but-executed_b_272327.html)

Good for Texas.

If you come to Texas and commit rape and murder, expect to pay a price, a very high price.
 

ccbadd

Senior member
Jan 19, 2004
456
0
76
Crappy, worthless right-wing blog link boomerang. For example, this is about a *US treaty* that is the law of the land, not 'a rule of the Hague', and his embassy could hardly 'make it go away' if they were called. You are posting lies (by the site). You care to at least retract them if not apologize for posting lies?


It's very telling how you liberal twits are always coming down on the side of the worst members of society, but not surprising. Why is it you blind idealistic drones never even consider the 16 year old girl that was brutalized.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
It's very telling how you liberal twits are always coming down on the side of the worst members of society, but not surprising. Why is it you blind idealistic drones never even consider the 16 year old girl that was brutalized.

It's telling how you idiots judge rights violations by whether you like the person whose rights were violated.

"The officers just broke into his home and searched without a warrant illegally!"

"Well is he a nice guy? No? Who cares then?"

It's also telling how you lie that following the constitution is 'not caring about the girl'.

95% of what's said here about liberals is wrong or lies, I can't remember the other 5%.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The issue isn't whether this treaty was signed or not, or even about the Senate ratifying the treaty itself, the point is the Vienna treaty (along with the Optional Protocol) is not "self-executable" in its obligations without Congress creating legislation to codify those obligations in to US law. Furthermore the Vienna treaty only imposes obligations onto the US to submit disputed cases to the ICJ but even at this junction there is no agreement that those rulings would be binding and supersede US domestic law without a legislative act by Congress and that has yet to occur. All of this was stated in the decision made by the USSC in 2008 but it seems though that you consider our nation's laws and courts only to be valid and applicable when it's in line with your own political views.

http://books.google.com/books?id=x_...PA4#v=onepage&q=Avena treaty ratified&f=false

Edit: Even Hilary admits in her criticism against the 2011 case that in order to get stay of execution there needed to be an act of Congress and the intervention by the Obama administration was to buy this guy more time in a vain hope that Congress would pass legislation to save his worthless scumbag life.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/07/06/national/a144706D17.DTL



Another quote from the same article highlighted the point that this treaties obligations on States are not binding because Congress has yet to make it so via legislation.

Of course Congress needed to act because of the questionable Supreme Court ruling.

That's not the point. Texas had no good reason to violate the treaty.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
I was listening to this guy's case being pleaded on NPR yesterday, the person explaining what happened obviously thought he was innocent of murdering her, but the story did not add up (between 3 and 4)...

1. A minor was gang raped at a party
2. The accused arrived at the party after the gang rape, saved the girl from being raped further
3. Started to drive her home, girl comes around and freaks out
4. Girl falls and accidentally smashes her head on a rock, killing her

The main complaint of the interviewer, aside from the innocence of the accused, was that he was not informed that he could seek legal representation from the Mexican embassy.

So, I start to think that maybe the justice system screwed up, then I read the details of the torture / murder and the evidence presented by the prosecution D:

It would seem this man is a monster, the police should have allowed him access to legal representation from the Mexican government, per the agreement (despite him being in America since age 2), but I do not think it would have helped his case much...
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
12
81
May he rot in hell.

When you step back, yes - this fucks Americans,... who leave the US and murder 16 year old girls.

...and Americans who show their elbows on a holy day.
...and Americans who have drugs planted in their luggage on their way to Indonesia.
...and Americans on tourist visas who are accused of spying.

...and yes, Americans who leave the country and commit murder. At least when you commit murder in the US, you get access to a lawyer and an honest chance to defend yourself against your accuser. In other countries, you aren't always afforded that right, so without the ability to consult your consulate, you can forget about passing Go and collecting your $200 on the way to jail.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
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Of course Congress needed to act because of the questionable Supreme Court ruling.

There was nothing questionable about Congress's lack of effort in the 48 years since this treaty was crafted and signed in which they (Congress) understood that it would not be binding toward States. There is also nothing questionable about the fact that it required further Federal legislation to make its obligations part of US law so as to compel States to enforce it at a local level.

That's not the point. Texas had no good reason to violate the treaty.

Yes that is the point because the treaty was not binding in anyway and the USSC illustrated this FACT in its rulings. However clearly you are to wrapped up with your bullshit opinion that this confessed murderer is some sort of martyr for the liberal cause and you can't grasp the factual point that has been presented by the highest court in our nation.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
There was nothing questionable about Congress's lack of effort in the 48 years since this treaty was crafted and signed in which they (Congress) understood that it would not be binding toward States. There is also nothing questionable about the fact that it required further Federal legislation to make its obligations part of US law so as to compel States to enforce it at a local level.

The Vienna Convention has been the supreme law of the land since 1969, when it was unanimously approved by the Senate and brought into force by President Richard Nixon. The Senate gave advice and consent on the basis that the treaty would be self-executing — that is, that no implementing legislation would be needed.

This premise turned out to be incorrect. In Medellin v. Texas (2008), the U.S. Supreme Court held that an international judgment based on the Vienna Convention could not be given effect as directly applicable federal law. Rather, Congress would have to adopt the necessary legislation to enable the United States to comply with its treaty obligations.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArtic...h_the_Vienna_Convention&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1

So the Senate passed it "on the basis that the treaty would be self-executing" - the opposite of what you said. This changed with a questionable ruling in 2008.

Yes that is the point because the treaty was not binding in anyway and the USSC illustrated this FACT in its rulings. However clearly you are to wrapped up with your bullshit opinion that this confessed murderer is some sort of martyr for the liberal cause and you can't grasp the factual point that has been presented by the highest court in our nation.

You are arguing like an idiot. You haven't addressed most of the issue at all; and the only issue you did say something about was nothing more than 'because I agree with them'.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,651
2,933
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For a "non-self enacting" treaty such as Vienna to be binding three distinct steps have to occur:

1. The treaty must be ratified by Congress
2. The treaty must be signed by the President
3. The treaty must be codified in USC through enacting legislation

In this case both #1 and #2 occurred but #3 never did despite the 48 year window since ratification and 3 year window since the prior decision on the matter. Without step #3 the treaty is not binding upon the Federal gov't or the states.

Fact of the matter is that the convicted murderer got a standard, fair trial and was convicted. He got 15 years of appeals and lost. Congress had 48 years to give him an additional "out", 3 of which were subject to additional lobbyist pressure specific to his case, and never took action.

You want to be indignant and full of faux rage over this case? Don't blame Texas, which followed the rule of law and did nothing wrong, blame Congress, whose inaction "cheated" the convicted out of another opportunity.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
For a "non-self enacting" treaty such as Vienna to be binding three distinct steps have to occur:

1. The treaty must be ratified by Congress
2. The treaty must be signed by the President
3. The treaty must be codified in USC through enacting legislation

In this case both #1 and #2 occurred but #3 never did despite the 48 year window since ratification and 3 year window since the prior decision on the matter. Without step #3 the treaty is not binding upon the Federal gov't or the states.

Fact of the matter is that the convicted murderer got a standard, fair trial and was convicted. He got 15 years of appeals and lost. Congress had 48 years to give him an additional "out", 3 of which were subject to additional lobbyist pressure specific to his case, and never took action.

You want to be indignant and full of faux rage over this case? Don't blame Texas, which followed the rule of law and did nothing wrong, blame Congress, whose inaction "cheated" the convicted out of another opportunity.

Texas did do wrong. I do blame Texas. But it's been clearly explained, and you say things that have been debunked, so it's a waste of time to repeat them. See my last post.