Ten Commandments: NOT the foundation of American Law

[Buck Armstrong]

What is the big fvcking deal? Nobody gets their trendy granola bar panties in a wad when someone mentions Hammurabi, do they? Why? Both Hammurabi's code and the 10 Commandments are indeed foundations of our law, in that they were historically among the first codified laws. So leave religion out of it; they are important as steps in the development of "rule by law" societies. Every diplomatic or legal document from the Middle Ages also mentions God...big fvcking deal. Does that change their value as historical records? No, all it means is that they believed in God at the time they wrote it, so quit being ridiculous.

I'm not a church-goer, but this is clearly motivated by anti-Christian bias. Hammurabi had gods of his own, it doesn't mean shit. Its history, and I question the motives of anyone who wants to change fact to fiction just to suit their own fragile belief system.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
What is the big fvcking deal? Nobody gets their trendy granola bar panties in a wad when someone mentions Hammurabi, do they? Why? Both Hammurabi's code and the 10 Commandments are indeed foundations of our law, in that they were historically among the first codified laws. So leave religion out of it; they are important as steps in the development of "rule by law" societies. Every diplomatic or legal document from the Middle Ages also mentions God...big fvcking deal. Does that change their value as historical records? No, all it means is that they believed in God at the time they wrote it, so quit being ridiculous.

I'm not a church-goer, but this is clearly motivated by anti-Christian bias. Hammurabi had gods of his own, it doesn't mean shit. Its history, and I question the motives of anyone who wants to change fact to fiction just to suit their own fragile belief system.

You're right that there is some anti-christian sentiment here BUT there's also some good points here addressing the role of christianity in the founding of the US. These are very important issues currently in polotics.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
What is the big fvcking deal? Nobody gets their trendy granola bar panties in a wad when someone mentions Hammurabi, do they? Why? Both Hammurabi's code and the 10 Commandments are indeed foundations of our law, in that they were historically among the first codified laws. So leave religion out of it; they are important as steps in the development of "rule by law" societies. Every diplomatic or legal document from the Middle Ages also mentions God...big fvcking deal. Does that change their value as historical records? No, all it means is that they believed in God at the time they wrote it, so quit being ridiculous.

I'm not a church-goer, but this is clearly motivated by anti-Christian bias. Hammurabi had gods of his own, it doesn't mean shit. Its history, and I question the motives of anyone who wants to change fact to fiction just to suit their own fragile belief system.

I think it's because the 10 Commandments are all they want to put up. I'd have no problem with a sculpture of the 10 Commandments along side copies of the Magna Carta or the Hammurabi Code, assuming it was with the intention of providing a historical perspective on the foundation of law.

but it seems that the issue is over the 10 Commandments by themselves in the court room, which, IMO, seems wrong to me both as a Christian and as an American. as a Christian, I find that the beatitudes are far more important than the 10 Commandments, and when was the last time you read about a judge trying to get a sculpture of "blessed are the merciful" installed in their court?

 

[jackschmittusa]

Buck Armstrong

Could you please cite an historical example of The Ten Commandments being credited as a foundation of U.S. law?

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
What is the big fvcking deal? Nobody gets their trendy granola bar panties in a wad when someone mentions Hammurabi, do they? Why?

Because no one's seriously tried to put up Hammarabi's Code in courtrooms across the nation. Try it and watch the protests.

Both Hammurabi's code and the 10 Commandments are indeed foundations of our law, in that they were historically among the first codified laws. So leave religion out of it; they are important as steps in the development of "rule by law" societies.

Roman law had far more influence than the 10 commandments, but in any case, you're welcome to put them in a museum.

The 10 commandments are inappropriate for an American courtroom because they directly contradict the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

We should not celebrate a document in our supposedly impartial legal system that contradicts the foundations of said system.

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

Only 3 or 4 of the commandments are even laws.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: kage69
No holy rollers to defend christian reconstructionism, awwwwwwww....

They don't have to come in and defend anything since they rule the Country.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: JustAnAverageGuy
Only 3 or 4 of the commandments are even laws.

Yeah, isn't it funny how little of this putative "foundation of US law" is actually represented in actual law?

 

[cwjerome]

I agree that the 10 Commandments are not the foundation of American law. But they are an integral part of a complex set of values, principles, and beliefs that make up Western Civilization and particularly the American System.

Many pieces of the puzzle from Aristotle to Locke culminated in America's founding thinking and documents. I believe the 10 Commandments were a fairly early yet important step in the basic Judeo-Christian culture that was part of those aspects surrounding the creation of the United States.

I think like Buck Amrmstrong that it's but one part of the historical ladder that helped lead to the DoI and Constitution. The literal religious meaning is not what makes it important, rather it's simply culturally relevant. I suppose some people can dwell a little too hard on it for religious purposes, but I liken it to "In God We Trust" on coins and "Creator" in the Declaration. I am much more concerned about the anti-religious agenda by those who seek to redefine and rewrite our documents and cultural-political history.

I see what Dragonmasteralex is saying, and I think we both share somewhat of an Objectivist background. But when many people talk of God's rules and rights given by a Creator, it's synonymous with saying those rights are "Natural" or part of our nature as human beings. It's mostly semantics... call them god-given, natural, or whatever, but it's all a hell of a lot better than starting from a completely different philosophic base: that man's rights are derived from man or government.

 

[judasmachine]

one nation built on the backs of children and on top of the graves of millions.

murder, theft, cheating, lying were universal evils that were recognized before christianity, judism came on the scene.

 

[joshw10]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I agree that the 10 Commandments are not the foundation of American law. But they are an integral part of a complex set of values, principles, and beliefs that make up Western Civilization and particularly the American System.

You mean like....2 or 3 of the 10

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I agree that the 10 Commandments are not the foundation of American law. But they are an integral part of a complex set of values, principles, and beliefs that make up Western Civilization and particularly the American System.

Many pieces of the puzzle from Aristotle to Locke culminated in America's founding thinking and documents. I believe the 10 Commandments were a fairly early yet important step in the basic Judeo-Christian culture that was part of those aspects surrounding the creation of the United States.

I think like Buck Amrmstrong that it's but one part of the historical ladder that helped lead to the DoI and Constitution. The literal religious meaning is not what makes it important, rather it's simply culturally relevant. I suppose some people can dwell a little too hard on it for religious purposes, but I liken it to "In God We Trust" on coins and "Creator" in the Declaration. I am much more concerned about the anti-religious agenda by those who seek to redefine and rewrite our documents and cultural-political history.

I see what Dragonmasteralex is saying, and I think we both share somewhat of an Objectivist background. But when many people talk of God's rules and rights given by a Creator, it's synonymous with saying those rights are "Natural" or part of our nature as human beings. It's mostly semantics... call them god-given, natural, or whatever, but it's all a hell of a lot better than starting from a completely different philosophic base: that man's rights are derived from man or government.

They are values that many people have, but they have nothing to do with our goverment.
The 10 commandments say it's morally wrong and it's a sin to do these things. Our goverment does not say the are immoral. They only say if you do some of these things, you will goto jail.


The "In God We Trust" was not orginally on the coins, seperate groups tried to put them on their...

The commmandments are only used by Abramic religions such as Christianity,Islam..etc...
Not other groups such as the naitve americans. If you'd look at my sig, you should do some research on this treaty. It's very real and still exsists today. It's the law of the land and the goverment will follow it.

It's not like you or anyone worships at the is place anyhow. Our founding fathers knew that having "national religion" would create problems.

Removing the stone has NOTHING to do with re writing history. It has everything to do with our goverment supporting one group of religions more than another. Times have changed, and people need to adjust.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I agree that the 10 Commandments are not the foundation of American law. But they are an integral part of a complex set of values, principles, and beliefs that make up Western Civilization and particularly the American System.

Many pieces of the puzzle from Aristotle to Locke culminated in America's founding thinking and documents. I believe the 10 Commandments were a fairly early yet important step in the basic Judeo-Christian culture that was part of those aspects surrounding the creation of the United States.

Why do you believe that?

Modern Western law came from Roman law, with some admixtures of German laws after the fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century CE. It's absurd to argue that the 10 commandments were on the path to Roman law, since not only was there no known contact between Romans and Jews at the time Roman law was developed, Roman law was written down in 450BCE before the Penteteuch (the first 5 books of what Christians call the OT which contain the 10 commandments), which was written 400BCE.

Others argue that the influence of the 10 commandments came later from Christianity. However, Christianity formed less of the population and had less influence than Islam does of America today until Constantine made it the official religion in the 4th century CE, many centuries after the founding of Roman law. At that time, the Romans had had a legal system capable of dealing with an empire of a 100 million people for centuries. Banning theft and murder were not novelties to them; however, the religious intolerance common to the Abrahamic monotheisms was.

The first four commandments banning other religions were the only aspect of the 10 commandments that contributed to Western law. That wasn't a positive contribution. It took us about 1400 years to escape those prejudices and once again enshrine religious freedom in Western law again. The US Constitution and Bill of Rights are great counters to the dangers of the 10 commandments. Let's not enshrine intolerance at the expense of our truly American documents and freedoms.

Let's also not revert to our intolerant and warlike religioust past. Ironically, Constantine thought one religion would unifty the Empire, but instead warring different factions of Christianity--the Arians versus the Athanasians at first--weakened the Empire and greatly contributed to its fall in the West to the Germans and in the Middle East to Islam.

 

[cwjerome]

cquark, modern western law is the summation of 5000 years of various ingrediants. To say that it came solely from Roman law is simplistic to the point of negating your argument. I find it very odd that you wouldn't consider the 10 Commandments a historically significant part of basic Western culture.

In my eyes, most 10 Commandments displays would be the same as a display of the Magna Carta or Martin Luther's Thesises. They are historically relevant documents that have been a part of building the civilization that exists here today. Some of you people are too literal and extreme. These aren't things that are the foundations of American Law, they are things that have impacted our thinking that's led up to our founding documents, law, and society.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
cquark, modern western law is the summation of 5000 years of various ingrediants. To say that it came solely from Roman law is simplistic to the point of negating your argument. I find it very odd that you wouldn't consider the 10 Commandments a historically significant part of basic Western culture.

In my eyes, most 10 Commandments displays would be the same as a display of the Magna Carta or Martin Luther's Thesises. They are historically relevant documents that have been a part of building the civilization that exists here today. Some of you people are too literal and extreme. These aren't things that are the foundations of American Law, they are things that have impacted our thinking that's led up to our founding documents, law, and society.

That's fine - the problem is that isn't the reason people want the ten commandments on disply. The 'twelve tables' the magna carta and other symbols which really are more historically significant to modern western legal systems, are ignored, but people want the ten commandments. I tend to agree that if the display is truly a symbol, rather than the actual text of the commandments, it's not an issue.

But the argument that this is really about 'historical' rather than 'religious' symbols, falls apart when the supporters hold prayer vigils. It's like listening to Woody Harrelson advocate marijuana legalization for manufacturing purposes - there's no credibility!

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
cquark, modern western law is the summation of 5000 years of various ingrediants. To say that it came solely from Roman law is simplistic to the point of negating your argument. I find it very odd that you wouldn't consider the 10 Commandments a historically significant part of basic Western culture.

I didn't say that modern Western law came solely from the Romans. Read my whole post. I find it amusing to be accused of simplistic ideas, when the simplicity is a result from ignoring my entire post outside the first phrase of the first sentence.

I acknowledge that the Roman had their influences too, but my point is that they weren't the 10 commandments. Every idea in the 10 commandments, except monotheistic intolerance, existed in Roman law before the Penteteuch was written down. Western law didn't get any new ideas from the 10 commandments except monotheist intolerance. Nothing else was a new contribution. If you want to post them as a mistake people learned to do better from in US law, then you might have a point, but that's not the purpose of any monument to them that I've heard about.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I agree that the 10 Commandments are not the foundation of American law. But they are an integral part of a complex set of values, principles, and beliefs that make up Western Civilization and particularly the American System.

Many pieces of the puzzle from Aristotle to Locke culminated in America's founding thinking and documents. I believe the 10 Commandments were a fairly early yet important step in the basic Judeo-Christian culture that was part of those aspects surrounding the creation of the United States.

Why do you believe that?

Modern Western law came from Roman law, with some admixtures of German laws after the fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century CE. It's absurd to argue that the 10 commandments were on the path to Roman law, since not only was there no known contact between Romans and Jews at the time Roman law was developed, Roman law was written down in 450BCE before the Penteteuch (the first 5 books of what Christians call the OT which contain the 10 commandments), which was written 400BCE.

Others argue that the influence of the 10 commandments came later from Christianity. However, Christianity formed less of the population and had less influence than Islam does of America today until Constantine made it the official religion in the 4th century CE, many centuries after the founding of Roman law. At that time, the Romans had had a legal system capable of dealing with an empire of a 100 million people for centuries. Banning theft and murder were not novelties to them; however, the religious intolerance common to the Abrahamic monotheisms was.

The first four commandments banning other religions were the only aspect of the 10 commandments that contributed to Western law. That wasn't a positive contribution. It took us about 1400 years to escape those prejudices and once again enshrine religious freedom in Western law again. The US Constitution and Bill of Rights are great counters to the dangers of the 10 commandments. Let's not enshrine intolerance at the expense of our truly American documents and freedoms.

Let's also not revert to our intolerant and warlike religioust past. Ironically, Constantine thought one religion would unifty the Empire, but instead warring different factions of Christianity--the Arians versus the Athanasians at first--weakened the Empire and greatly contributed to its fall in the West to the Germans and in the Middle East to Islam.

This was a great post. interesting & informative. :thumbsup:

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
cquark, modern western law is the summation of 5000 years of various ingrediants. To say that it came solely from Roman law is simplistic to the point of negating your argument. I find it very odd that you wouldn't consider the 10 Commandments a historically significant part of basic Western culture.

In my eyes, most 10 Commandments displays would be the same as a display of the Magna Carta or Martin Luther's Thesises. They are historically relevant documents that have been a part of building the civilization that exists here today. Some of you people are too literal and extreme. These aren't things that are the foundations of American Law, they are things that have impacted our thinking that's led up to our founding documents, law, and society.

American law is almost solely based on roman and english common law, things that existed before they came into contact with abrahamic law. If the ten commandments were an influence, they were a minor influence and their affect was mostly negative, since as others have said, the only part of the ten commandments that made it into western law was the one that led to intolerance.

 

[NJDevil]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
cquark, modern western law is the summation of 5000 years of various ingrediants. To say that it came solely from Roman law is simplistic to the point of negating your argument. I find it very odd that you wouldn't consider the 10 Commandments a historically significant part of basic Western culture.

In my eyes, most 10 Commandments displays would be the same as a display of the Magna Carta or Martin Luther's Thesises. They are historically relevant documents that have been a part of building the civilization that exists here today. Some of you people are too literal and extreme. These aren't things that are the foundations of American Law, they are things that have impacted our thinking that's led up to our founding documents, law, and society.

The Magna Carta has legal basis and serves as part of the British "constitution." It is an integral part of the law used by many Western nations. How many Western nations use the 10 commandments as their basis?

As cquark pointed out (very well I might add), no part of the 10 commandments came into law purely as a result of them being commandments. Let me explain:

Thou shalt not kill was not the reason murder was illegal in Western states.
In fact, some of the very commandments that you consider "a significant part of basic western culture" are contradicted by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. Congress can't make a law establishing a religion, while the commandments state that there is only one God. Explain to me how the commandments served as any sort of basis for our legal system and maybe then I'll change my opinion on the matter. Until then, I will continue to recognize that Roman law, as well as the works of enlightenment philosphers had a great deal of influence on American Law.

 

[illustri]

just remembering from an old Friedman course how the 10 commandments, the mosiac covenant, was point for point a Hittite treaty between a king and his subjects

its like they took a generic legal form and filled in "Yaweh" and "Isrealites" in the corresponding blanks

now the unspectacular orgins of the commandments aside, its silly to think that this covenant reinterpreted ad nauseum by sucessive groups has not had significant influence on the American culture and system of justice

its also a moot point to wonder whether the founding fathers intended christianized or at least christian friendly government or not, A LOT of things those long dead guys intended are no more -- nowadays black people are free and women can vote

as a non-christian i respect the symbolism the 10 commandments represent, but theres a line between symbolism and overt infringement which is crossed by the first line of text that reads "i am the lord THY god"

now, in my opinion the symbolism and history of the covenent would be best expressed in depictions of the tablets WITHOUT TEXT -- just blank stone tablets or murals or whatever, maybe with roman numerals.

anyone who'd care would see the significance of the pieces, anyone opposed to the commnandments in front of court houses would no longer see a textualized wagging christian finger damning them to hell for breaking covenant with a abrahamic diety

yeah

 

[cwjerome]

illustri, I follow you to a certain extent. But religious meaning aside, I think the 10 Commandments are a significant piece of the historical Judao-Christian culture leading up to and part of the founding of the United States. I am not arguing that the 10 Commandments are the foundation of American law. I believe it to be part of a larger heritage that has influenced this country.

I'm still pretty neutral as to whether it may be posted on public grounds. It wouldn't kill me either way.

 

[petrek]

Depending on which scholars you believe, the older or the newer. Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible in and around 1500 BC, and the old testament was completed by 500 BC. So the Romans would have had clear access to the Jewish Scriptures prior to their law, which according to cquarks post was written down in 450 BC.

Dave

 

[petrek]

John Adams, the second President (or tenth if you consider John Hanson the first) wrote to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813:

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature."

 

[Tab]

Guess what this is...Well, John Adams doesn't represent the United States anymore

The commandments don't belong there, let's move them some place else.

 

[Riprorin]

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." - Democratic President Harry S. Truman