Ten Commandments: NOT the foundation of American Law

Feb 3, 2001
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EXCERPT, Read the full article at the source:
The Ten Commandments have no significance in the American legal system; they had virtually nothing to do with the development of our conception of law, and still less to do with our substantive laws ? including those laws (such as the prohibitions of murder or theft in our criminal codes) that seem to parallel those in the Decalogue. The English common law ? the body of substantive law on which early American law was based ? originally derived from the customary laws of the pagan Anglo-Saxons. The Anglo-Saxons had no criminal law, as we understand it; their legal system was based on restitution, or compensation of victims (or victims? families) for harms done to them by wrongdoers ? similar to our modern law of torts ? in order to forestall blood feuds. Murder was among those wrongs; its compensation was payment of wergeld (?man-money?), the worth of the victim?s life. After the Anglo-Saxons converted to Christianity, their legal system remained the same; the Anglo-Saxon kings, beginning with Aethelbert of Kent (the first English king to convert to Christianity), promulgated their so-called ?dooms,? or laws, which merely codified the existing customs. Even after the Norman Conquest, English law continued to be based on the Anglo-Saxon system of restitution. The first criminal penalties for ?murder? concerned an additional payment, or fine (called the murdrum) that was to be paid to the Norman kings of England, but only if a Norman was killed; the penalty did not apply to the killing of a native Englishman. Later, when something like true criminal laws were instituted ? including laws that punished as murder the killing of any person ? those laws had more to do with the king?s responsibility to keep the peace and to see that justice was done rather than with enforcing Biblical commandments. Indeed, as Thomas Jefferson showed in an essay written in his retirement years, Christianity was no part of the English common law.

When we consider the Ten Commandments themselves ? something that many of their defenders seem to have failed to do ? we can understand further why they are not part of the ?Foundations of American Law and Government.? Rather, they are literally foreign to our legal and constitutional system ? at best, irrelevant to it; and at worst, inconsistent with it.

The Ten Commandments are imbued with religious significance; they are religious doctrine, a key part of the teachings of the Judeo-Christian religious tradition, and specifically the religion of the ancient Israelites as embodied in the Old Testament (Book of Exodus, chapters 20-24). As philosopher George Walsh has pointed out, the Ten Commandments fall into two groups: the last six and the first four. The last six ? ?honor your father and mother,? ?do not commit murder,? ?do not commit adultery,? ?do not steal,? ?do not bear false witness,? and ?do not covet what belongs to others? ? are supposed to be the ethical base of the Judeo-Christian tradition, but their content is not unique to that tradition, for similar moral principles and the values lying behind them ?have been shared by many ethical and legal systems and by many other societies,? as Professor Walsh notes. (The specific formulation of these rules, however, is uniquely part of the Judeo-Christian religion and is, in fact, the subject of some controversy, depending on one?s translation of the Old Testament text. Catholics and Protestants have different versions of the ?do not covet? injunction, for example ? something that?s been overlooked in the constitutional analysis and which may pose problems for one part of the Lemon test, which forbids government ?entanglement? with religion: if the government displays the Commandments? text, which version ? Catholic or Protestant ? should be used?) Nevertheless, as Professor Walsh adds, there is a critical difference between these six prohibitions in the Ten Commandments and similar rules in other moral or legal codes: the Commandments are absolute. ?They contain no provisions for exceptions. There are no situations in which it is permitted not to honor one?s father and mother, for example.? Also, they do not distinguish between lawful killing (in one?s self-defense, for example) and unlawful killing, or murder; the commandment is absolute, ?thou shalt not kill.? (In this particular regard, they?re totally unlike the substantive content of Anglo-American criminal law.) ?These commandments are given in the form that Immanuel Kant was later to call `apodictic.? It means `unyielding,? `unconditional,? `absolutely necessary,? `in the form of absolute, categorical imperatives.? Other moral codes contain provisos for special situations or for mitigations; these commandments do not. Now, why do they have this absolute form? Because they are revealed. Because the nature of the revealer is hidden from the scrutiny of reason, and because the revealer refuses to entertain any questions as to the premises behind the commandments or any of his actions. His answer is always, `Because I say so.?? (George Walsh, The Role of Religion in History (1998), p. 109.)

The other group of commandments, the first four of the Ten Commandments, clearly show their authoritarian nature and clearly pertain to a particular religion, that of the ancient Jews. ?I am Yahweh your God. You shall have no other gods before me.? ?You shall not make a carved image of me or any natural object, or bow down to such an image, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God.? ?You shall not use my name lightly.? ?You shall not do any work on the seventh day, the Sabbath.? As Professor Walsh notes, ?these commandments are unique to the Judaic tradition?: ?They deal with attitudes and actions to be taken up by those who accept the last six commandments ? attitudes toward the revealer of the commandments, Yahweh. First, Yahweh is to be the only object of reverence. He openly states that he is jealous. Secondly, he is not to be represented as having any form. Now `form? is what you can scrutinize with your senses or examine by your reason. `Form? means `identity,? but Yahweh is beyond form, beyond identity, beyond identification. If you ask him what he is, he answers, `I am inscrutable.? Now, all nature has form. Yahweh is therefore beyond all nature, beyond the universe. Just as `apodictic? is the correct word for his commands, so `transcendent? and `inscrutible? are the correct words for his nature. Transcendent: he is hidden, he is beyond our scrutiny. Thirdly, his name must not be used lightly. Later the Jews elaborated this commandment as to prohibit the very pronunciation of the name `Yahweh.? There is a prohibition of perceiving Yahweh. There is a prohibition of framing a concept of him, and finally a prohibition of naming him. . . . Finally, there is the consecration of a special day to Yahweh, a day on which man?s productive activities must come to a complete halt, in order to acknowledge the fact that Yahweh is the supreme creator.? (Walsh, The Role of Religion in History, pp. 109-110.)

The authoritarianism of the Ten Commandments, and not just their overtly religious content, is totally contrary to the American conception of law. Law is not to be based on religious beliefs, whether biblical Scriptures or any other authoritarian source. The law ? which is to say, the rules prescribing human conduct and enforceable by the coercive power of government, its unique power legitimately to use force ? is derived from ?the consent of the governed,? as our founding document, the Declaration of Independence, states. Indeed, the Constitution itself owes is legitimacy to ?the consent of the governed,? its ratification by the American people (that is, by the people of the several states that comprise the United States). In no way can an honest historian of American law ? that is, one who is not advancing a particular political/religious agenda, as many conservative Christian scholars do ? say that the Ten Commandments, or other specific teachings within the Judeo-Christian tradition, are truly part of the ?Foundations of American Law and Government.? America?s Founding Fathers included many Christians, to be sure; but many of them were not Christians in the traditional sense but were rather deists, believers in God as the Creator who acts through nature rather than against it. Importantly, when Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, speaking for the members of the First Continental Congress and basing their case for American independence on the surest possible ground, he chose the scientific thought of the 18th-century Enlightenment tradition, ?the laws of nature and of nature?s god,? and based individual rights not on revealed religion but on the ?self-evident? truths of logical reasoning. (Note that in his original draft of the Declaration, Jefferson followed his usual practice of not even capitalizing the word god.) When certain religious conservatives claim that America was founded on Christian principles simply because the Declaration includes the word god, they are ignoring context and fundamentally misunderstanding the history and principles of this country?s founding. (For more on this, hear my lecture ?The Declaration of Independence as a Philosophical and Literary Document,? available on audio cassettes from The Objectivist Center, at www.objectivismstore.com .)

Considering the real content of the Ten Commandments ? the peculiar understanding of law and even of God that they proscribe ? it should be clear that, by themselves, the Commandments are contrary to one of America?s fundamental constitutional principles, freedom of religion. The core idea behind the First Amendment?s religion clause ? both its protection of an individual?s ?free exercise? rights and its prohibition of government ?establishment? ? is that religion is a private matter, a matter of an individual?s own conscience, over which government simply has no business. That?s what Jefferson meant when he described the First Amendment religion clause as erecting ?a wall of separation between church and state,? and that?s what the Supreme Court tried to recognize when it endorsed Jefferson?s conception and applied it in cases involving government aid to parochial schools and other church-state issues. If the justices of the Supreme Court were truly to decide this issue according to first principles of American constitutional law, they would find that government display of the Ten Commandments, in any context, is an unconstitutional endorsement of religion and thus prohibited by the Constitution.

But don?t hold your breath waiting for the Court to consistently follow first principles. It seems that a majority of the justices on the Court, like conservative defenders of government display of religious symbols like the Ten Commandments, really do want the government to endorse religious belief, notwithstanding the Constitution?s prohibition. The myth of the Ten Commandments provides a convenient rationale for them to indulge in their subjective preferences ? and to give the sanction of law to their private religious beliefs.

To me, this stuff should be common knowledge taught in civics courses. The history of the Common Law, upon which American law is based, extends WELL before the conquest of the Normans over Britain, much less their eventual conversion to Christianity. It's about time someone started talking about the real history of this widely, MASSIVELY misunderstood topic.

Jason
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
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The other group of commandments, the first four of the Ten Commandments, clearly show their authoritarian nature and clearly pertain to a particular religion, that of the ancient Jews. ?I am Yahweh your God. You shall have no other gods before me.? ?You shall not make a carved image of me or any natural object, or bow down to such an image, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God.? ?You shall not use my name lightly.? ?You shall not do any work on the seventh day, the Sabbath.?
At least someone realizes what's really espoused in the Ten Commandments.

I still wonder why the Beattitudes don't come up in these cases.
 

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
1,413
0
0
.....one nation, under god, and divisible, with liberty and justice for all.

while this may be a lil broad (seeing as how i don't know much), it seems more reasonable to me that when our fore fathers intended for religious freedom, that they were insinuating that to be within the christian religions. protestant, catholic, lutheran, and so on. it's not as if indians had religious freedom. even the slaves, when they weren't picking cotton and getting whipped were forced to accept chritianity. they even went as far as given them christian names! (toby.....kunta kente <whuuupahhh!!!>)

 

JackStorm

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2003
1,216
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Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
under god

That part WASN'T in it in the begining. So if someone is going to use that argument to say it was founded on the Ten Commandments. Then they just failed history in my book.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
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Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
.....one nation, under god, and divisible, with liberty and justice for all.

the pledge of allegiance hasn't existed for very long.
 

smc13

Senior member
Jan 5, 2005
606
0
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I agree with your opinion but using a blog that someone wrote as a source is poor. I could easily come up with webpages that would indicate that the Ten Commandments are the Foundation of American Law just by doing a quick internet search.
 

smc13

Senior member
Jan 5, 2005
606
0
0
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
.....one nation, under god, and divisible, with liberty and justice for all.

the pledge of allegiance hasn't existed for very long.


1892. The under god part was added in 1954
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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Originally posted by: smc13
I agree with your opinion but using a blog that someone wrote as a source is poor. I could easily come up with webpages that would indicate that the Ten Commandments are the Foundation of American Law just by doing a quick internet search.
Yeah, what's this guy know?

UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA GRADUATE SCHOOL OF ARTS AND SCIENCES,
Charlottesville, Virginia
Ph.D. in History awarded August, 1988
M.A. in History awarded August, 1982
Fields of study: American History, especially Revolutionary/Early National periods; English and U.S. Legal/Constitutional History (all periods); History of Anglo-American Political Thought
Dissertation: "The Constitutional Thought of Thomas Jefferson"

UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN LAW SCHOOL
Ann Arbor, Michigan
J.D. cum laude awarded May, 1980


UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN COLLEGE OF LITERATURE, SCIENCE & ARTS,
Ann Arbor, Michigan
A.B. with Distinction, Highest Honors in History awarded May, 1977




CAPITAL UNIVERSITY
Columbus, Ohio
Professor of Law, since 1994
Associate Professor of Law, 1990-94
Tenured law faculty appointment, teaching courses in Law and American History, (English) Legal History, Copyright Law, Unfair Trade Practices, and seminars in American Constitutional History and in Libertarianism and the Law in the Law School as well as courses in U.S. Constitutional History in the College of Arts and Sciences (History and Political Science Departments)
 
Feb 3, 2001
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0
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Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
.....one nation, under god, and divisible, with liberty and justice for all.

while this may be a lil broad (seeing as how i don't know much), it seems more reasonable to me that when our fore fathers intended for religious freedom, that they were insinuating that to be within the christian religions. protestant, catholic, lutheran, and so on. it's not as if indians had religious freedom. even the slaves, when they weren't picking cotton and getting whipped were forced to accept chritianity. they even went as far as given them christian names! (toby.....kunta kente <whuuupahhh!!!>)

Actually the "Under God" portion of the pledge has nothing to do with the Founding fathers; it was added by an illegal act of Congress in 1954.

You might also be surprised to learn that NONE of the coinage originally contained "in God We Trust", and that attempts to put religious slogans on the money were REPEATEDLY refused by founders who became presidents. It wasn't until 1864 that In God We Trust appeared on the two-cent coin , and it was only there a few years. It wasn't until the twentieth century that it really became commonplace on all coins, and it wasn't until 1957 that it began to be printed on paper money.

What you can see in this pattern is pretty simple: The slow, systematic infiltration and overthrow of the American system, a system of Liberty and self-determination, by the agents of Christianity. The founding fathers were all long dead by the time this began happening; they had NOTHING to do with it.

A more complete history of the Motto "in God We Trust"

Jason
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
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Originally posted by: conjur
The other group of commandments, the first four of the Ten Commandments, clearly show their authoritarian nature and clearly pertain to a particular religion, that of the ancient Jews. ?I am Yahweh your God. You shall have no other gods before me.? ?You shall not make a carved image of me or any natural object, or bow down to such an image, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God.? ?You shall not use my name lightly.? ?You shall not do any work on the seventh day, the Sabbath.?
At least someone realizes what's really espoused in the Ten Commandments.

I still wonder why the Beattitudes don't come up in these cases.

As do I.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
.....one nation, under god, and divisible, with liberty and justice for all.

while this may be a lil broad (seeing as how i don't know much), it seems more reasonable to me that when our fore fathers intended for religious freedom, that they were insinuating that to be within the christian religions. protestant, catholic, lutheran, and so on. it's not as if indians had religious freedom. even the slaves, when they weren't picking cotton and getting whipped were forced to accept chritianity. they even went as far as given them christian names! (toby.....kunta kente <whuuupahhh!!!>)

:confused:

For some reason, I am reminded of a quote from an Adam Sandler movie:

Mr. slurmsmackenzie, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!

;)

 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: smc13
I agree with your opinion but using a blog that someone wrote as a source is poor. I could easily come up with webpages that would indicate that the Ten Commandments are the Foundation of American Law just by doing a quick internet search.

The blog author provided REFERENCES and specific information. Can you provide references and specific information that DISPROVE the history of the Common Law?

Somehow I doubt it. Just because it's posted in a Blog as opposed to CNN.com doesn't make it less accurate or valid.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: smc13
I agree with your opinion but using a blog that someone wrote as a source is poor. I could easily come up with webpages that would indicate that the Ten Commandments are the Foundation of American Law just by doing a quick internet search.
Yeah, what's this guy know?

UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA GRADUATE SCHOOL OF ARTS AND SCIENCES,
Charlottesville, Virginia
Ph.D. in History awarded August, 1988
M.A. in History awarded August, 1982
Fields of study: American History, especially Revolutionary/Early National periods; English and U.S. Legal/Constitutional History (all periods); History of Anglo-American Political Thought
Dissertation: "The Constitutional Thought of Thomas Jefferson"

UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN LAW SCHOOL
Ann Arbor, Michigan
J.D. cum laude awarded May, 1980


UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN COLLEGE OF LITERATURE, SCIENCE & ARTS,
Ann Arbor, Michigan
A.B. with Distinction, Highest Honors in History awarded May, 1977




CAPITAL UNIVERSITY
Columbus, Ohio
Professor of Law, since 1994
Associate Professor of Law, 1990-94
Tenured law faculty appointment, teaching courses in Law and American History, (English) Legal History, Copyright Law, Unfair Trade Practices, and seminars in American Constitutional History and in Libertarianism and the Law in the Law School as well as courses in U.S. Constitutional History in the College of Arts and Sciences (History and Political Science Departments)

Good find, CJ! Yeah this blogger definitely sounds like a complete f*cknut, doesn't he? :)

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
.....one nation, under god, and divisible, with liberty and justice for all.

while this may be a lil broad (seeing as how i don't know much), it seems more reasonable to me that when our fore fathers intended for religious freedom, that they were insinuating that to be within the christian religions. protestant, catholic, lutheran, and so on. it's not as if indians had religious freedom. even the slaves, when they weren't picking cotton and getting whipped were forced to accept chritianity. they even went as far as given them christian names! (toby.....kunta kente <whuuupahhh!!!>)

:confused:

For some reason, I am reminded of a quote from an Adam Sandler movie:

Mr. slurmsmackenzie, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!

;)

"Now you see why Evil will always triumph over Good: Because Good is dumb."

Little Spaceballs quote there ;)

Jason
 

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
1,413
0
0
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
.....one nation, under god, and divisible, with liberty and justice for all.

while this may be a lil broad (seeing as how i don't know much), it seems more reasonable to me that when our fore fathers intended for religious freedom, that they were insinuating that to be within the christian religions. protestant, catholic, lutheran, and so on. it's not as if indians had religious freedom. even the slaves, when they weren't picking cotton and getting whipped were forced to accept chritianity. they even went as far as given them christian names! (toby.....kunta kente <whuuupahhh!!!>)

:confused:

For some reason, I am reminded of a quote from an Adam Sandler movie:

Mr. slurmsmackenzie, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!

;)

<bows>

.... i like to think i <sniff> touched some people <sniff> here today.

i misspoke when i said fore fathers. the majority rule, and even those fore fathers had to pay their respects to it. while never professing christianity and even speaking ill of organized religions (not christianity.... ben franklin, thomas jefferson all respected jesus' teachings, but considered it's perversion by way of organized religion to be it's downfall), they were regularly seen in church. why? cuz you gotta appeal to the people. was the constitution a religiously biased document? no. was it's interpretation on a daily basis biased? of course. christian religions had too much money not to be heard. same rings true today.

 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
It may be trite, but I just stick to this little passage from the Treaty of Tripoly:


ARTICLE 11

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. "


It's not a be-all, end-all answer, but speaks volumes to me.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
I have heard that The Code of Hammurabi was a milestone in civilized law because it first defined specific infractions and punishments for such.

I have heard that the Magna Charta was a milestone in civilized law because it guaranteed certain rights that the government (king) could not revoke.

I have heard that The Constitution of the United States was a milestone in civilized law because it gave control of the government to the goverened.

I have never heard The Ten Commandments described as a milestone in civilized law. How can some now claim now that it is part of the foundation of our law?

The Ten Commandments are not even a document IMHO. It is a small group of words from a much larger morality tale. A morality tale that is undeniably religious in nature, I might add.

I am amazed that anyone can deny it is anything but a religious symbol, with a straight face.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
.....one nation, under god, and divisible, with liberty and justice for all.

while this may be a lil broad (seeing as how i don't know much), it seems more reasonable to me that when our fore fathers intended for religious freedom, that they were insinuating that to be within the christian religions. protestant, catholic, lutheran, and so on. it's not as if indians had religious freedom. even the slaves, when they weren't picking cotton and getting whipped were forced to accept chritianity. they even went as far as given them christian names! (toby.....kunta kente <whuuupahhh!!!>)

:confused:

For some reason, I am reminded of a quote from an Adam Sandler movie:

Mr. slurmsmackenzie, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!

;)

<bows>

.... i like to think i <sniff> touched some people <sniff> here today.

Given the apparent level of [im]maturity of some posters here, you should be careful about just who you might be touching. ;)
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
I have heard that The Code of Hammurabi was a milestone in civilized law because it first defined specific infractions and punishments for such.

I have heard that the Magna Charta was a milestone in civilized law because it guaranteed certain rights that the government (king) could not revoke.

I have heard that The Constitution of the United States was a milestone in civilized law because it gave control of the government to the goverened.

I have never heard The Ten Commandments described as a milestone in civilized law. How can some now claim now that it is part of the foundation of our law?

The Ten Commandments are not even a document IMHO. It is a small group of words from a much larger morality tale. A morality tale that is undeniably religious in nature, I might add.

I am amazed that anyone can deny it is anything but a religious symbol, with a straight face.

Why is it such a surprise? They claim with a straight face that America's founding fathers were devout Christians, that they DIDN'T intend to separate Church from State and the pledge of allegiance isn't right without the words "Under God" in it. Why, then, should the rest surprise you? :)

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
It may be trite, but I just stick to this little passage from the Treaty of Tripoly:


ARTICLE 11

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. "


It's not a be-all, end-all answer, but speaks volumes to me.

Absolutely true. And given that it was signed into law by James Madison, who WAS a Christian AND a separationist, it should speak even MORE clearly.

Jefferson on Religion and the Common Law is an excellent excerpt from Jefferson's Commonplace Book. It's lengthy and in some places diverges into french, but it definitely gives you some insight into the genius and thoroughness of one of the most important Founding Fathers, who had NO illusions about the Ten Commandments being a basis for American Law.

Jason
 

jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,225
664
126
Originally posted by: kage69
No holy rollers to defend christian reconstructionism, awwwwwwww.... ;)

Fear not, Rip will be here with a one-liner or a "copy, paste, and run" in a little bit.