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Teen's Heart Stops, Restarts 4 Days Later

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bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: DAGTA
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: bamacre
I think it's funny that you all say that science saved this kids life (which is true), but it's the doctor who said, "it's a miracle."
For God's sake, he's a doctor NOT a scientist. I'd say most doctors have a religious background. So him saying, "it's a miracle" is nothing shocking. It just a way of doctors saying, "I can't explain it." NOW, get a scientist working on a theory and have him incorporate "then a miracle happens" into it, and I'd be impressed. However immediately after that, I'd start a petition to have him fired for being a sh!tty scientist. ;)

I'm guessing that doctor probably has more scientific education than you.
Let me put it to you this way. The most intelligent doctor in the world has no more evidence of God than I do of the magic fairies.

Sounds like you are back-peddling. ;)
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: DAGTA
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: bamacre
I think it's funny that you all say that science saved this kids life (which is true), but it's the doctor who said, "it's a miracle."
For God's sake, he's a doctor NOT a scientist. I'd say most doctors have a religious background. So him saying, "it's a miracle" is nothing shocking. It just a way of doctors saying, "I can't explain it." NOW, get a scientist working on a theory and have him incorporate "then a miracle happens" into it, and I'd be impressed. However immediately after that, I'd start a petition to have him fired for being a sh!tty scientist. ;)

I'm guessing that doctor probably has more scientific education than you.
Let me put it to you this way. The most intelligent doctor in the world has no more evidence of God than I do of the magic fairies.

Sounds like you are back-peddling. ;)
Not really. What does the most intelligent person in the world have in common with me? We have the same amount of evidence of the existence of God, which is zero. And I'm just a normal guy. Now why would the doctor's opinion (which has no facts to back it up) hold more weight than the most renowned scientists in the world? Simple answer, it wouldn't. If you think medicine is an exact science, you need a reality check.
 

mercanucaribe

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
9,763
1
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Aflac
God should've recharged him when his heart gave out in the first place.

:laugh:

Then the doctors wouldn't have been able to make a huge profit, then claim that it was a miracle to cover up their pessimism.
 

mercanucaribe

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
9,763
1
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Actually, even the the doctor proclaimed it to be a miracle. ;)

:thumbsup: for Science
:thumbsup::thumbsup: for God

What if he survived, became disgruntled at his disability, then shot up his school? Who'd you attribute that to? Satan? His own failings? It's pretty easy to convince yourself that God is responsible for "miracles" when you paint every good event as a miracle, and ignore all the bad ones. At the same time, if he had simply died, you might say "God works in mysterious ways".

So how is this evidence of God, when everything is either God testing us, God performing miracles, or Satan trying to get some company?

You must admit that even if God didn't exist, you people would do the same exact thing.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
Originally posted by: bamacre
Actually, even the the doctor proclaimed it to be a miracle. ;)

:thumbsup: for Science
:thumbsup::thumbsup: for God

What if he survived, became disgruntled at his disability, then shot up his school? Who'd you attribute that to? Satan? His own failings? It's pretty easy to convince yourself that God is responsible for "miracles" when you paint every good event as a miracle, and ignore all the bad ones. At the same time, if he had simply died, you might say "God works in mysterious ways".

So how is this evidence of God, when everything is either God testing us, God performing miracles, or Satan trying to get some company?

You must admit that even if God didn't exist, you people would do the same exact thing.

First off, I never really claimed this was a miracle, or an act of God. I cannot possibly know that. I do find it very interesting.

I also firmly believe that God gave man "free will." That said, I believe that God interferes with that at times. And I believe that I don't know why He interferes in certain situations, and not others.

I also believe that Satan has no real power. Only the power of temptation, which in and of itself is no real power without one giving into a temptation. So, no, I do not blame Satan for anything.
 

doze

Platinum Member
Jul 26, 2005
2,786
0
0
I hardly call a machine keeping somebody alive for several days divine intervention.

Medical Science FTW

edit: not an athiest (for the record)
 

fuzzybabybunny

Moderator<br>Digital & Video Cameras
Moderator
Jan 2, 2006
10,455
35
91
We humans attribute too much of what we don't know to something divine. The doctor exclaims the outcome as a "miracle" because he does not understand why the heart would suddenly just start. The key words are "he does not understand." His pool of knowledge is insufficient. This situation is neither evidence for or against the existence of God. Crazy, seemingly random things will happen in nature that we can't explain. It doesn't mean that it doesn't have a scientific explanation though.

Take for example a table sitting in the far corner of a room. Suddenly the table just blinks into existence in the center of the room. Physicists have determined that there is indeed a chance that such a thing can happen, but that it is extremely unlikely to happen, much less happen at a time when we just happen to observe it. But it's definitely possible. If something like this can happen without divine intervention, a human heart starting back up by itself after four days doesn't seem like such a stretch after all.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
We humans attribute too much of what we don't know to something divine. The doctor exclaims the outcome as a "miracle" because he does not understand why the heart would suddenly just start. The key words are "he does not understand." His pool of knowledge is insufficient. This situation is neither evidence for or against the existence of God. Crazy, seemingly random things will happen in nature that we can't explain. It doesn't mean that it doesn't have a scientific explanation though.

Take for example a table sitting in the far corner of a room. Suddenly the table just blinks into existence in the center of the room. Physicists have determined that there is indeed a chance that such a thing can happen, but that it is extremely unlikely to happen, much less happen at a time when we just happen to observe it. But it's definitely possible. If something like this can happen without divine intervention, a human heart starting back up by itself after four days doesn't seem like such a stretch after all.

I can certainly agree with that.

And in fact, it is why I started this thread...
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=38&threadid=2006026&enterthread=y

Since our knowledge of science is never-ending, we will always witness occurences that we cannot explain scientifically. And, in a way, this is why we cannot prove that God exists. But where is the line drawn? What could happen to make a non-believer, a believer? As a Christian, science does not scare me, no, not at all. Science, IMO, cannot be evil, for it is not man, and only man can do good and evil. Science is only good or bad in the hands of man, it can be used to save lives, and also to destroy them. But we should never end our search for knowledge. "The mind of the prudent acquires knowledge, And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge."
 
Nov 3, 2004
10,491
22
81
Originally posted by: doze
I hardly call a machine keeping somebody alive for several days divine intervention.

Medical Science FTW

edit: not an athiest (for the record)

it's the fact that his heart restarted that is "divine"
 

fuzzybabybunny

Moderator<br>Digital & Video Cameras
Moderator
Jan 2, 2006
10,455
35
91
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
We humans attribute too much of what we don't know to something divine. The doctor exclaims the outcome as a "miracle" because he does not understand why the heart would suddenly just start. The key words are "he does not understand." His pool of knowledge is insufficient. This situation is neither evidence for or against the existence of God. Crazy, seemingly random things will happen in nature that we can't explain. It doesn't mean that it doesn't have a scientific explanation though.

Take for example a table sitting in the far corner of a room. Suddenly the table just blinks into existence in the center of the room. Physicists have determined that there is indeed a chance that such a thing can happen, but that it is extremely unlikely to happen, much less happen at a time when we just happen to observe it. But it's definitely possible. If something like this can happen without divine intervention, a human heart starting back up by itself after four days doesn't seem like such a stretch after all.

I can certainly agree with that.

And in fact, it is why I started this thread...
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=38&threadid=2006026&enterthread=y

Since our knowledge of science is never-ending, we will always witness occurences that we cannot explain scientifically. And, in a way, this is why we cannot prove that God exists. But where is the line drawn? What could happen to make a non-believer, a believer? As a Christian, science does not scare me, no, not at all. Science, IMO, cannot be evil, for it is not man, and only man can do good and evil. Science is only good or bad in the hands of man, it can be used to save lives, and also to destroy them. But we should never end our search for knowledge. "The mind of the prudent acquires knowledge, And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge."

I don't think a line needs to be drawn. Simply live your life constantly questioning things and constantly trying to find the truth in things, while at the same time placing a heavy emphasis on being a good person. Then when you die, well, what happens will happen. If there is no God and it's oblivion, then there's no God and it's oblivion. If there is a God, well, he'll do with me how he sees fit. Whatever the end state, I will certainly not accept his existence on no evidence and blind faith alone, because then I would have failed to utilize the sentience and intelligence he has given me, basically everything that makes me a rational being. To me that is worse than not believing.
 

angminas

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2006
3,331
26
91
Christian post! Any threadcrappers, please find something else to do. I'm not talking to you.

I also firmly believe that God gave man "free will." That said, I believe that God interferes with that at times. And I believe that I don't know why He interferes in certain situations, and not others.

Specifics will remain a mystery, but the general reasons are clearly stated in the Bible. God has a plan for us beyond keeping our physical hearts beating and our faces smiling. More on that later.

I also believe that Satan has no real power. Only the power of temptation, which in and of itself is no real power without one giving into a temptation. So, no, I do not blame Satan for anything.

You think Satan has no real power? I wonder how much of the Bible you've read. The devil's power is mentioned in 1Chronicles 21:1, Job 1 and 2, many places in the Gospels, Acts 5:3, 1Thessalonians 2:18, much of Revelation, and other places besides. God's power constrains him so that he is not allowed to do everything he pleases, and certainly he has help and cooperation from demons and men, but the things he does are still done, and they are many. He is called "the prince of the power of the air" (Ephesians 2:2) and "the God of this world (or age)" (2Corinthians 4:4). He "walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" (1Peter 5:8) and "deceives the whole world" (Revelation 12:9) Does this sound like no real power to you? Check your Bible.

To a wider audience- It seems a great number of people believe that, if God exists, his purpose and goal is to keep us alive, perfectly healthy and happy, and rich with material goods. They think God created us so that he could have lesser beings to serve. They think that what he really wants is to wait on us hand and foot, catering to us without judging or correcting us. Thus, when they don't get those things, they look not in the mirror, but to heaven. If God really exists, why did he let Grandma die? If God loves me, why can't I have a bigger house? I'm not any worse than anybody else I know- why doesn't God get me a promotion? Why did God let my heart stop and keep me in the hospital all this time?

The answers to these questions are all in the Bible. So many people want to call themselves Christians but rarely bother to pray or study. And some people honestly and diligently seek the truth but are blinded to it. Sin has consequences. Sometimes the consequences land on us, sometimes they land on other people. There are reasons for this. One important thing to remember is that not every single word in the Bible is addressed directly to every single person in the world, especially the second half of the New Testament.

Christians are not here to be conformed to this world. We're here to learn to walk just as Jesus walked. God tests and purifies our hearts as a furnace purifies metals. A true Christian should rejoice in trials, since they represent opportunity to improve ourselves and draw closer to God. A true Christian should not be surprised if the world hates them, since they are not of this world. (This entire paragraph is paraphrased quotes from the Bible.)

God doesn't promise us that we will never have difficulties- in fact, quite the opposite. If he didn't allow us to encounter trials and evil, he wouldn't be much of a parent. Consider your own children. Do you keep them in a cage so a car can't hit them? Do you sanitize every surface they will ever touch? Do you do all their homework for them so they will never suffer the consequences of a mistake? Do you give them everything they ask for, regardless of whether it's good for them or how they ask for it? Do you take them to the gym but lift all the weights for them so they can feel strong but not have to get sore or tired? Do you never get angry with them for ignoring your words of wisdom and doing foolish, selfish, hurtful, prideful things that will only make them unhappy in the end?

Of course not. And neither will God do everything for us so that we develop no strength, no Godly love, no wisdom, no patience, no self-knowledge, no righteous character. If he did, we would be powerless to resist sin and to make the right choices necessary to be happy and live in harmony with him and others.

What this young man experienced was a trial. There are different kinds of trials from different sources (not all are from God), and none of us know why it happened specifically, nor what the end result will be. But we can know generally why such things take place if we pray and study, and if God is gracious and opens our eyes.

If anyone wants more specific examples of how what I'm saying is out of the Bible, feel free to ask.


 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
81
God, an omnipotent omnipresent being, one for which time has no meaning and can be in all places at once, waited a period of time that is to be considered 4 days before restarting the heart. Why? He is omnipresent, it isn't like he needed to be somewhere else. Time is nothing to him, yet everything to us, yet he still waited. Explain that to me.
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,922
0
76
If God wanted him to live, he wouldn't have given him a bum heart in the first place.
 

doze

Platinum Member
Jul 26, 2005
2,786
0
0
Originally posted by: IAteYourMother
Originally posted by: doze
I hardly call a machine keeping somebody alive for several days divine intervention.

Medical Science FTW

edit: not an athiest (for the record)

it's the fact that his heart restarted that is "divine"

I know that prayer can do good, positive energy and whatnot is helpful for sick people, but I have a hard time believing that divine intervention made his heart start beating again. I believe it is a miracle as in something wonderful beyond the realm of human understanding, but why did his heart stop? What is divine about that? Divine intervention would never allow a heart to fail.
 

mercanucaribe

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
9,763
1
0
Originally posted by: doze
I hardly call a machine keeping somebody alive for several days divine intervention.

Medical Science FTW

edit: not an athiest (for the record)

Exactly. To me this is no different from someone waking up from a coma. The kid wasn't dead- he didn't come back to life!
 

angminas

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2006
3,331
26
91
Originally posted by: doze
Divine intervention would never allow a heart to fail.

Why not? Does the existence of God require that nobody ever dies? What's your source for this information?