Teenager shot dead after playing loud music

[HumblePie]

JoS...

http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/content/59/5/477.abstract



Well.. might as well do a search for all the research studies based off testosterone and human behavior.

http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/search?fulltext=testosterone&submit=yes&x=0&y=0

There are many recent studies there you can peruse on your own JoS.

 

[HumblePie]

It can, and livestrong isn't a good source for information.

The point isn't that this happens in EVERYONE, the point is that it CAN, in adolescent males it can vary more than that even.

And yet your source actually confirms that depending on the time of day it's measured you can get up to 15% different meaning.

Not that you should EVER use that source again, please don't, it's a horrible paper full of misinformation.

HAHAH, I just did a quick google search. You can find the same information in many places.

The RANGE for the human male of testosterone levels is 300 mg/dl to 1,000 mg/dl

I'm sorry but there is no 3000% fluctuation that can occur in that range. You are delusional if you think so.

 

[HumblePie]

Oh and if you don't like livestrong. How about a medical research journal stating the same thing.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/88/2/932.full

You want to tell me that is a bad cite despite having the same information?

Here is the abstract which is the summary.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/88/2/932.abstract

Which states the average fluctuation was 10%


Care to try and prove yourself wrong on this subject again? You aren't going to win this as I helped do a dissertation on testosterone for a PHD graduate.

 

[Geosurface]

I'm sorry but a nazi boy who clings to eugenics first and then leaves it once he's disproven to proclaim that some not so well thought out study that isn't peer reiviewed and never duplicated to proclaim that races are different IS a racist who is ATTEMPTING to use science to say he's right to be racially biased (a racist).

Now every single thing you brought up is wrong, you draw conclusions which do not follow from studies that are incomplete and non scientific (not peer reviewed and not duplicated) and you state it as fact that because one badly made study found 15% higher testosterone rate in black males that is evidence that black males are as a group more violent.

Don't fucking try to say this wasn't your intention, it's clear to EVERYONE that in the context of what you have written in this thread that is exactly what you are saying.

Now, i've disproven the skull measurements AND that 15% should do ANYTHING WHAT SO EVER (when 85% is lower than the actual fluctuate in any male over a day, you could have made the readings different if you measured then later or earlier during the day) with behaviour...

I dislike your kind the most because if not for your kind there would be 6 Million more of my kind.

You really cannot say you're not a racist when you dig up sheit to use for justification of your racism, can you? There is no justification, you are wrong.

First, as to the bolded... LOL. Man you are so emotionally invested in the issues of race differences, it's no wonder you can't see the issues clearly and lose your mind and delve into personal insults heedless of any information that comes to light about the person you're "debating" when discussing such things.

John, it's going to be alright. I promise. A couple more deep breaths.

You said "you use such and such in an attempt to show races are different!"

Does this imply you don't think races are different?

If I say blacks have darker skin than whites on average, I've just said something which indicates races are different... is that a racist thing to say?

If I say the number of blue eyed individuals is lower in the black population than the white, is that racist?

If I say that whites are not as genetically suited to sprinting as blacks, is that racist?

Is this article racist: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2012/08/12/the-dna-olympics-jamaicans-win-sprinting-genetic-lottery-and-why-we-should-all-care/

?

If I say women are shorter on average, is this sexist?

If I comment on differences in hair type between blacks and whites, is that racist?

Is discussing any and all types of differences between races racist? Or just differences in mental ability and behavioral patterns?

We have decades and decades of military measurements of hat sizes for soldiers, which back up the skull measurement thing btw.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

LOL WHAT???

First off, you don't know what you are talking about here. I don't even really know where to start, but I guess I got to start somewhere with correcting this post.

1) You claim alcohol does not increase testosterone.

That is an incorrect and correct statement.

Testosterone is increased beyond the normal receptors in the body to handle. Men have a method of dealing with extra free floating testosterone called aromatase. This converts the extra testosterone to estrogen. Also, when too much testosterone is present in the male body, the testicles stop producing more. So when a guy gets good and drunk, their nuts turn off and it takes a bit for them to turn back on. When men do this for for a long period of time through alcohol abuse over years, the testicles just stop producing what they used to. Other side effects include bitch tits and a beer gut when men drink too much all the time and get drunk too often. The converted estrogen causes the mammary tissues to grow and they never go back.

So you are correct that long term effect of alcohol reduces testosterone. However, the SHORT TERM effect is that upon immediately drinking alcohol, testosterone levels will spike. This is where you are wrong.

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/abuse/l/blacer030117.htm

Here is a link talking about the short term effect of alcohol and spiking of testosterone levels.

2) Women on birth control have increased hormones. That they do, but of estrogen, not testosterone. Estrogen does have behavioral changes associated with it, but not to the degree testosterone does. And women who first start the pill go through an emotional adjustment. TRUST ME. Same thing when they first get pregnant. Their hormones go out of whack from levels they are used to.

3) Who cares about the deflection about a cat born parasite and how it affects human behavior. Knowing about toxoplasmosis is all well and good, but really that has no bearing about the topic I was discussing which is the effect of hormone changes and human behavior changes.

4) Riod rage is not a proven thing either. Studies show that some individuals respond badly with increased aggressive to high dosages of testosterone entering their system and some people don't. There is a genetic predisposition to it. Some are and some aren't. However, prolong exposure to higher levels of testosterone being given to a person shows a very strong coloration with mental illnesses and problems over time.



So, you are wrong and I am right when it comes to this discussion topic for the points I am making. Those points are that a rapid change in hormones can cause behavioral changes in people, depending upon the type of hormone change. And that prolong exposures to various hormone levels of any type of hormone will have a lasting effect on the body.

WOW, no.

To your entire post. NO.

I've never seen so much information in the same place.

What you present here is a tidbit of fact and a MASSIVE misdirected conclusion in which the fact has no place.

Not one thing right at all in this entire post, not ONE thing right.

Rapid change in Testosterone levels will do FUCK ALL, testosterone in itself will do NOTHING, it is the prolonged exposure that will indeed increase and decrease signal substances and THAT is what makes a difference.

You could pop 50mg of methyl test which goes right into your bloodstream (they are sublinguals) and you wouldn't change anything, if the exposure persisted (you're at 100 000+% normal production at that dose) yes it would indeed change your signal substance markups and it would make you more prone to aggression but you would need to be used do it.

Alcohol and violence has to do with reduced inhibitions due to other factors, there is not one scientist IN THIS WORLD that would agree that it has anything to do with testosterone.

 

[HumblePie]

WOW, no.

To your entire post. NO.

I've never seen so much information in the same place.

What you present here is a tidbit of fact and a MASSIVE misdirected conclusion in which the fact has no place.

Not one thing right at all in this entire post, not ONE thing right.

Rapid change in Testosterone levels will do FUCK ALL, testosterone in itself will do NOTHING, it is the prolonged exposure that will indeed increase and decrease signal substances and THAT is what makes a difference.

You could pop 50mg of methyl test which goes right into your bloodstream (they are sublinguals) and you wouldn't change anything, if the exposure persisted (you're at 100 000+% normal production at that dose) yes it would indeed change your signal substance markups and it would make you more prone to aggression but you would need to be used do it.

Alcohol and violence has to do with reduced inhibitions due to other factors, there is not one scientist IN THIS WORLD that would agree that it has anything to do with testosterone.

LOL, now you are going to dispute the medical journal link that says your full of shit here?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

First, as to the bolded... LOL. Man you are so emotionally invested in the issues of race differences, it's no wonder you can't see the issues clearly and lose your mind and delve into personal insults heedless of any information that comes to light about the person you're "debating" when discussing such things.

You're saying this after you brought up eugenics which you backed down from and then racial differences in testosterone?

You know what i can't stand, a racist that will try to use science to prove that his racism is right and when disproven say that he never even said it.

You're a pathetic little wise and beautiful woman, that is all you'll ever be.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

LOL, now you are going to dispute the medical journal link that says your full of shit here?

Not only did i dispute a link that wasn't peer reviewed, i provided one that IS peer reviewed to prove it wrong. You can find it in this thread.

It's funny how idiots are always wrong, isn't it?


idiot..

I missed what you said about women... Just as mens testosterone is aromatized into estrogen, in women it's the reverse, to limit estrogen it ups the testosterone, while the estrogen doesn't aromatize it is still counteracted by testosterone in that the limit of testosterone is dependant on the amount of free estrogen.

Now, you don't know this and you are a retard so you didn't check it out before proclaiming if you're wrong, well... you're wrong.

 

[HumblePie]

I stated specifically that the hormone testosterone by itself does not trigger aggression. But it can activate markers in certain people that can trigger aggression. When combined with the other effects of alcohol for example this leads to a massive whammy in rapid behavior changes.

Which is why you can pump some people full of testosterone and they will rage and others won't with the same amount. HOWEVER, there is massive immediate effects that aren't all related to behavior that occur in the body with even small changes in hormone levels.

 

[HumblePie]

LOL Jos,

You are going to state medical studies presented by the American Psychosomatic Society are not peer reviewed. You are fucking daft.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I stated specifically that the hormone testosterone by itself does not trigger aggression. But it can activate markers in certain people that can trigger aggression. When combined with the other effects of alcohol for example this leads to a massive whammy in rapid behavior changes.

Which is wrong as i stated and provided a study to show.

Which is why you can pump some people full of testosterone and they will rage and others won't with the same amount. HOWEVER, there is massive immediate effects that aren't all related to behavior that occur in the body with even small changes in hormone levels.

Which is wrong as i stated and provided a study to show.

Either way, we're discussing the 15% elevation of testosterone in black males that a flawed study showed and how it makes all black people thugs as per Geosurface's assertion.

It really doesn't matter that you're wrong about everything you say, you are by the way, what matters is that a 15% increase or decrease is absolutely negligable and will affect absolutely nothing in anyone.

So let's get back on track here and why don't YOU tell Geo that he's a fucking retard this time?

Fucking skull measurements and poorly done studies showing insignificant results is some kind of explanation of how black homo sapiens sapiens are somehow not as good as white homo sapiens sapiens? Fucking retards claiming idiotic sheit that they DO NOT have any evidence for?

I'm out before i get myself banned for telling you retarded twats what i REALLY think about you.

 

[Geosurface]

Rapid change in Testosterone levels will do FUCK ALL, testosterone in itself will do NOTHING

Yea HumblePie! Listen to John...

Didn't you know that human beings are actually just ethereal beings? Like Protoss from StarCraft... yes we may have what appears to be a biological shell, but inside? Pure glowing energy.

Hormone levels... irrelevant.
Brain size... irrelevant.
Gender... irrelevant.
Genetics... irrelevant.
Natural selection? We are exempt.

Our brains are shielded from the effects of evolution, and have been for hundreds of thousands of years. Nature granted us this immunity from any further development or change in our brains because it foresaw that this could be potentially offensive later on.

Like I said, glowing pure energy inside of us. Physical structures of the brain play NO PART in who we are or what we're capable of!

ALL HUMANS ARE EXACTLY EQUAL IN ALL RESPECTS, BIOLOGY IS ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT TO BEHAVIOR AND INTELLIGENCE, OR PHYSICAL CAPABILITY. WE ARE ALL BORN PERFECT BLANK SLATES OF EXACT EQUALITY AND IF YOU REPEAT THIS ENOUGH YOU WILL BELIEVE IT.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

LOL Jos,

You are going to state medical studies presented by the American Psychosomatic Society are not peer reviewed. You are fucking daft.

Yes is am.

Mostly because it's true.

You do know what psychosomatic means? Imagined effect.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Yea HumblePie! Listen to John...

Didn't you know that human beings are actually just ethereal beings? Like Protoss from StarCraft... yes we may have what appears to be a biological shell, but inside? Pure glowing energy.

Hormone levels... irrelevant.
Brain size... irrelevant.
Gender... irrelevant.
Genetics... irrelevant.
Natural selection? We are exempt.

Our brains are shielded from the effects of evolution, and have been for hundreds of thousands of years. Nature granted us this immunity from any further development or change in our brains because it foresaw that this could be potentially offensive later on.

Like I said, glowing pure energy inside of us. Physical structures of the brain play NO PART in who we are or what we're capable of!

ALL HUMANS ARE EXACTLY EQUAL IN ALL RESPECTS, BIOLOGY IS ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT TO BEHAVIOR AND INTELLIGENCE, OR PHYSICAL CAPABILITY. WE ARE ALL BORN PERFECT BLANK SLATES OF EXACT EQUALITY AND IF YOU REPEAT THIS ENOUGH YOU WILL BELIEVE IT.

I like how you try to assert that all these things actually ARE different among races and that is why different races are different as a whole... I also like how that makes you a racist for thinking so.

And no, you're not right, you're as wrong as the 1920's scientists that deemed eastern europeans most suitable for mining labour and prostitution since their known skills (estimated from their short but wide skulls) were just that.

You are trying to make a distinction between races, not individuals, i am NOT saying that everyone is biologically the same, i am saying that you cannot deem intelligence, aggressiveness or physical capability by race.

Do you know how fucking white AND black i would be if your assessments were true?

And you're a fucking idiot.

 

[HumblePie]

Yes is am.

Mostly because it's true.

You do know what psychosomatic means? Imagined effect.

http://www.psychosomatic.org/about/index.cfm

Wow, you are really something.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

http://www.psychosomatic.org/about/index.cfm

Wow, you are really something.

Indeed i'm right, your link confirms it, i think everyone knows this..

I don't get your point.

Just so everyone knows this, testosterone doesn't have a psychosomatic effect, it has a real world effect that happens after prolonged and constant exposure to EXTREME dosages in where other signal substances are inhibited.

You could say it works like the taxoplasmosis parasite in humans in that it makes men more willing to take risks.

Studies were once used to show that the prevalence of beautiful women did increase both risk taking and testosterone, however the conclusion that testosterone increases risk taking does not follow, it's one of those instances where coincidence doesn't imply relation. Other studies proved that other hormones such as adrenaline (which is a direct action hormone unlike testosterone) as well as the decrease in dopamine and increase in serotonin was responsible for the risk taking and the increased testosterone production didn't have any direct action effect (which is known, it doesn't affect anything directly, it has secondary effects over time) and that is to prepare for mating.

 

[Geosurface]

John I freely admit I may be wrong about some of this stuff. Or I may be right but the effect may be less than I imagine it to be. No doubt.

However, for a person to imagine that our species could subdivide and go to dramatically different environments, and pursue dramatically different survival strategies once there... and that this could lead to dramatic changes in physical appearance, center of gravity, running ability, skull shape, physical features, rate of twin production, speed of infant motor skill development... BUT ABSOLUTELY NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ANYTHING TO DO WITH MENTAL ABILITY OR BEHAVIOR!!!!!

Is just simply not realistic, and can be fairly characterized as magical thinking.

Plus John, you do your cause no credit by being such an insufferable douche bag.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

John I freely admit I may be wrong about some of this stuff. Or I may be right but the effect may be less than I imagine it to be. No doubt.

However, for a person to imagine that our species could subdivide and go to dramatically different environments, and pursue dramatically different survival strategies once there... and that this could lead to dramatic changes in physical appearance, center of gravity, running ability, skull shape, physical features, rate of twin production, speed of infant motor skill development... BUT ABSOLUTELY NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ANYTHING TO DO WITH MENTAL ABILITY OR BEHAVIOR!!!!!

Is just simply not realistic, and can be fairly characterized as magical thinking.

Plus John, you do your cause no credit by being such an insufferable douche bag.

YOU ARE WRONG ON ALL OF THIS!

Jesus fucking christ you fucking retarded racist cuntbag WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

Your FUCKING INSISTANCE ON HOW YOU ARE SOMEHOW RIGHT ABOUT RACES BEING DIFFERENT IN THESE RESPECTS IS WHAT MAKES YOU A FUCKING RACIST AND YOU WILL ALWAYS PERSIST!

And they you tell me that *I* should stop being a douche bag?

Just... i'm done with you, there is no teaching a racist to think, there just isn't a way to do that, no matter what you'll still cling to there being an inherent difference biologically that is persistant between races and affects behaviour on the race as a whole..

I can't stand you, i can only despise you and i'm done.

This discussion is now over.

 

[Geosurface]

I can't stand you, i can only despise you and i'm done.

This discussion is now over.

It's okay John, I understand that you're a bit raged out for a while.

Now your testosterone levels are dropping again and you're spent. It's cool

You're dismissed. Go clean yourself up.

 

[classy]

John, first I want to ask you to have a seat and take a few deep breaths.

I have no "preconceived" racism that I'm looking for shit to reinforce.

For my entire life until about a year ago, maybe less, I was a rabid egalitarian. White guilt pumped through my veins.

I grew up taught, like most, to idolize Martin Luther King Jr, Sidney Poitier, Morgan Freeman, to be particularly and especially enamored of black luminaries (itself a kind of racism actually). I was raised by a liberal feminist woman of the 60's, and I was taught that racism was the ultimate evil.

I grew up around blacks, some of my childhood friends were black kids, I walked at graduation with a black girl I'd known since we were very young... I had a black neighbor who was a mentor to me and an important part of my life. I wept when he died of cancer in 2002, and I still remember him fondly. He was a lower class guy too, with a history of criminality he'd left behind. He was married to a white woman, not a single thing about his past or his present ever bothered me. I cared deeply about him.

I voted for Obama in '08, not only voted for him but caucused for him and donated to him. Around this same time I was part of a rabidly liberal humanist group with whom I protested the Iraq war and endured people yelling at us and threatening us for doing so. I attended death penalty protests with them also.

In my service as a submariner in the US Navy which just ended recently, I made about 6 close friends. 3 of them were black.

The Trayvon Martin case and the incredibly disingenuous race-baiting double standards applied to how it was covered by the mainstream media, coupled with a heightened awareness of the fact that conservatives weren't all as braindead as I'd assumed (which I learned in the Navy while surrounded by them) - lead to me questioning a lot of deeply held assumptions.

I did not go seeking pseudoscience to reinforce previously held, bigoted, racist ideas. I opened my mind up to considering things I had previously dismissed, and found that there is merit to some of it.

This isn't about hatred, as I've said before... acknowledging the differences between men and women and the lower or higher levels of suitability to certain roles in life that accompany those differences, or the behavioral tendencies that accompany those differences... in no way implies hatred of the other gender. It is no different with race.

It's about an honest attempt to embrace the truth even when the truth is uncomfortable, unpopular, and taboo.

That is all.

There is no way on this planet, with all the racial and racist suggestions you have posted on this board have you ever had any kind of relationship with a black person. You are a complete liar and just too much of a chicken shit, to admit that you just don't like blacks. Be a man, if that is possible, and just admit it. Because it is laughable for you to sit here and post what everyone knows are lies.

 

[Geosurface]

Sorry classy, you being wrong in your assumptions does not equal me lying.

At no time since joining these boards have I ever misrepresented a single thing about myself. Ever.

This is actually something very important to me, I value honesty highly. That's why I discuss shit that wins me no friends. Honesty trumps all for me.

If I was just willing to lie willy nilly why not claim I myself am black or that I'm married to a black woman or that I have nine black friends instead of a measly three? Or that I dated that black girl rather than just walked at graduation?

 

[classy]

Sorry classy, you being wrong in your assumptions does not equal me lying.

At no time since joining these boards have I ever misrepresented a single thing about myself. Ever.

This is actually something very important to me, I value honesty highly. That's why I discuss shit that wins me no friends. Honesty trumps all for me.

I would bet 60% of your total posts have to do with some type of attack on blacks in general. Its just laughable. Your posts are nothing but racist taunts. You are representing what you are clearly. No one has some misconception of what you are. Everyone knows what you are.

 

[Geosurface]

I would bet 60% of your total posts have to do with some type of attack on blacks in general. Its just laughable. Your posts are nothing but racist taunts. You are representing what you are clearly. No one has some misconception of what you are. Everyone knows what you are.

classy you're doing exactly the same thing with me that you did with the Trayvon case.

Jump immediately to an emotional, kneejerk conclusion about someone (Zimmerman, or me) then entrench in that viewpoint... and refuse to reconsider it or allow nuance to shade it at all from there on out.

You don't actually take the time to read what I've said about racial issues, consider it, and weigh it's truth value. You don't think about it any further or deeper than "white guy talking about blacks. Destroy."

And as for "everyone knows" what I am? I've had plenty of very reasonable people leap to my defense, and acknowledge the nuance and complexity of what I've said. Do more people tend to do what you do... to boil it down to a charactature and just try to shove it in a little box called "racism" ? Yes. That's because most people are dipshits.

However, a healthy minority of people here have acknowledged that there is more to what I've talked about than that, even some who completely disagree with it.

 

[Capt Caveman]

That local defense attorney that was interviewed on tv was right. I guess there's enough evidence for the grand jury to charge Dunn with first degree murder and three counts of attempted murder.

Charges upgraded against Michael Dunn in shooting over loud music

Michael David Dunn has been indicted by a grand jury on a charge of first-degree murder in the Nov. 23 shooting of 17-year-old Jordan Davis.

The State Attorney's Office said Thursday night it would not seek the death penalty in the case. If found guility, Dunn would be sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Dunn, who was indicted Thursday, had been charged with second-degree murder.

In Florida, a first-degree murder charge can only be approved by a grand jury.

Authorities said Dunn, 46, stopped at the Gate Food Post near Baymeadows Road where he opened fire on a Dodge Durango with four teenagers inside after complaining of their loud music and saying he saw a gun. Davis was killed.

Also added were three counts of attempted murder because he might have shot the other three teenagers.

 

[soundforbjt]

That local defense attorney that was interviewed on tv was right. I guess there's enough evidence for the grand jury to charge Dunn with first degree murder and three counts of attempted murder.

Charges upgraded against Michael Dunn in shooting over loud music

Stick a fork in him...he's Dunn...