Teenager shot dead after playing loud music

[spidey07]

Nice description of a situation you weren't witness to. I doubt very much that he kindly asked to turn the music down.

That's what the articles I've read said. After he kindly asked them to turn it down they did. And then that's when the felt disrespected, turned it up even louder and began their assault with threats to his life and the showing a weapon.

 

[spidey07]

Hey, spidey is lying again. Who would have thought.

That is what the victim states happened. You have evidence that wasn't what happened?

 

[HumblePie]

That is what the victim states happened. You have evidence that wasn't what happened?

Spidey, to be more accurate, that is what the victim's lawyer states as what has happened to the media. We do not have a true accounting of Dunn's disposition and statement, if it has even been done yet. Until then, it's a fart in the wind what his lawyer says to the media in terms of evidence.

 

[ch33zw1z]

That's what the articles I've read said. After he kindly asked them to turn it down they did. And then that's when the felt disrespected, turned it up even louder and began their assault with threats to his life and the showing a weapon.

Again, I very much doubt he kindly asked them to turn it down. "please young man, could you reduce the decibel output of your gangsta rap?". yea, right. I haven't seen any witness statements, other than his, that support a kind request. Fortunately, there are three kids that are eye witnesses. so unlike TM+GZ's scenario, we do have two sides to the story.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I do hate the media sensationalism on this incident. Every media outlet has the headline "Kid killed because of loud music" or something to that effect. The problem is that this creates a bias from the get go in many people who start to read an article. We don't know the exact reason why Michael Dunn shot at the kids as of yet. One thing we do know is that it was most decidedly NOT over loud music. The loud music is what made Dunn ask the kids to turn down. What we know is that there was a heated discussion after the initial asking by Dunn.

The shooting could have been because Dunn was mad at the kids disrespecting him. Maybe he just went psycho at what they said to him which could have just been pure insults.

He also could have shot at them because they threatened him as Dunn claims. So in reality, the shooting occurred as a direct result of the verbal confrontation and not the loud music.

EDIT, I will say that by this point, most of the forensic evidence has been gathered. Most has probably been analyzed. When formal charges are brought to bear, we'll know more.

They already have. Dunn was charged with murder and denied bond on Monday.

 

[They Live]

Again, I very much doubt he kindly asked them to turn it down. "please young man, could you reduce the decibel output of your gangsta rap?". yea, right. I haven't seen any witness statements, other than his, that support a kind request. Fortunately, there are three kids that are eye witnesses. so unlike TM+GZ's scenario, we do have two sides to the story.

The racists will automatically assume that they are "brothas sticking together".

 

[ch33zw1z]

The racists will automatically assume that they are "brothas sticking together".

No doubt.

 

[HumblePie]

They already have. Dunn was charged with murder and denied bond on Monday.

He's being held on attempted murder charges. They haven't even decided if they can go after 1st degree murder or stick with 2nd degree yet as I saw in one article. Too much media disinformation already brewing right now.

Here's the deal. If Dunn and his lawyer claim SYG, there has to be evidence to even charge him. Which was what the PD in the Trayvon Martin case couldn't do was charge Zimmerman because they lacked any evidence from their investigation from which they could bring a charge that countered his claim of self defense.

Right now Dunn and lawyer has not made the SYG self defense claim. So they can charge him with lesser crimes which may or may not have direct evidence for. Attempted murder is one of those crimes they can toss at him for now and use that to hold him.

If Dunn and lawyer claim SYG, he would probably be free right now and again there would be a big media shit-storm over this case if history is any indication. Which would be my guess as to why they haven't claimed SYG as their defense yet. They may be looking to take a different route. A good likely reason would be personal safety of Mr Dunn. If Mr Dunn is willing to sit in the clink under armed protection while the investigation continues, that is his business. Can't say I fault anyone for that decision based again on recent history.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Seriously... After the media campaign by the crumponites it leaves little choice but to at least charge him to avoid another lynch mob situation.

It's so sad that the same people who jumped to conclusions just a few months ago are doing the EXACT same thing.

 

[SheHateMe]

That's what the articles I've read said. After he kindly asked them to turn it down they did. And then that's when the felt disrespected, turned it up even louder and began their assault with threats to his life and the showing a weapon.

There was no weapon dear. Try again.

 

[spidey07]

Lawyer said they will claim self defense. Also SYG is not likely needed in this case because he was in his vehicle. Because he was INSIDE his vehicle when the assault and threat came, castle doctrine now applies and not SYG.

 

[spidey07]

There was no weapon dear. Try again.

You don't know that AT all, that is not a statement of fact. There very well could have been a weapon or what appeared to be a weapon that they later ditched. My guess is we'll get one of the thugs to crack on the stand that there was.

 

[Geosurface]

The racists will automatically assume that they are "brothas sticking together".

And just because it may fit your view of what is "racist" to assume that, doesn't mean it isn't correct.

There's a reason cops pull over, stop and frisk, and have a higher level of suspicion toward blacks and black males in particular. It's because criminality is much, much more pervasive in the black community. Sorry, that's just the truth.

Call it profiling, call it unfair, but police who are serious about doing their job effectively are going to pay more attention to the demographic groups that are committing a disproportionately huge amount of the crime. There are ways to avoid this suspicion, as a black male if you dress in a sweater and khakis, don't sag, respond politely to questions, you're sporting nerdy glasses, you're well spoken, etc then in all likelihood you won't face any sort of bother from the police or any glances of suspicion from other people around you.

Is it sad in a way that this is necessary to avoid being looked at with suspicion and bugged by the cops more often? Yes, in a way it is. Yet, the same basic rules apply to other demographic groups too, dress like a thug and act suspicious, get targeted by police. Dress nicely and act civilized? No problem.

The reason people focus on the perceived unfairness of this expectation being applied to blacks is because blacks are meeting it in much, much smaller numbers than whites or asians, etc. People have started to merge the idea of dressing like a thug with sagging pants and a pulled up hoodie, walking around in that gangsta way... and the core concept of merely being black.

The two concepts are quite distinct. It isn't MANDATORY to dress and act like that just because you're black. Every single one of my black friends has opted not to dress or act that way. One of these guys I'm referring to dressed like Carlton from Fresh Prince, always in khakis, sweaters, a nice tweed jacket... brown leather shoes. Another was a huge gamer geek and just sort of dressed like any normal gamer geek would... and the third I'm thinking of still managed to dress like kind of a badass guy but not in a gangsta way, and came across as someone you wouldn't want to mess with, but was VERY well spoken, intelligent, and kind. He definitely didn't project the feeling that he would do anything to you for no reason. This was when these guys weren't in uniform, I knew them during my military service a few years ago.

Anyway...

You can call me racist if you like, but if I hear about a car load of black teenage males who are bumping rap loud, and whom this Dunn guy claims made threats to him, I find that shit IMMENSELY believable and for good reason. I also think it's entirely reasonable to expect an endless stream of lies both about what Dunn did and said, and what they did and said, from the surviving three.

My default expectation of those type of characters is lies, and doing whatever they can to avoid any trouble for themselves. Even if that includes letting what could be an innocent man go to prison for the rest of his life.

The notion that they would open up and admit to flashing a gun or something that looked like one, or making threats on him... is laughable. Again, expect lies from these types of characters. Expect lies and expect criminality and YOU WILL BE RIGHT 95% OF THE TIME.

To the other 5%... sorry. Maybe do more to distinguish yourself from these others by listening to different things, carrying yourself differently, and dressing differently? If it were the 3 black friends of mine I mentioned in that car, or 3 black guys more along their lines than the Trayvon mold, I'd feel entirely differently.

As it stands, I fully expect they'd lie and hide whatever it was Dunn saw. Whether it be real gun, fake gun, or other object. I fully expect this may have required no more than concealing it in one of their jackets... or am I to believe that the police, in the wake of the Trayvon case, did a thorough search of the "victim's" car AND a pat down of the three remaining people, when they hadn't even heard Dunn's claim about a gun being flashed until the next day?

By the time they heard a claim of a weapon in that car, it was long gone if it was ever there. It might've been down a storm drain before they even arrived. Who knows? Don't forget the "stop snitchin'" bullshit.

And then there's the possibility that I am being a complete douche and these kids were nice, innocent kids who just liked rap and were spreading their teenage wings and were the victims of a crazy piece of shit. If evidence comes out to make me think that, I'll gladly admit being wrong and I'll feel bad for my assumptions.

But as it stands now I make no apologies for my assumptions, as I said this kind of dim view proves right the vast majority of the time, is crucial to effective law enforcement and loss prevention in stores, and can save your life. Sorry, that's reality.

BOTTOM LINE: To me it is much more believable that a car full of rap-blasting black teens took great umbrage to being asked to turn it down, and got too carried away with their reaction and trying to intimidate the guy, and look badass to one another... than that a 40 year old dude decided to gun them down for no good reason while his gf was in the gas station and a billion cameras were all around them.

If the police are interested in the TRUTH here, and don't care about what Al Sharpton might say, they should try to search all 4 of their phones, and should have patted them all down on scene, and searched the truck much more thoroughly than I suspect they did.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Lawyer said they will claim self defense. Also SYG is not likely needed in this case because he was in his vehicle. Because he was INSIDE his vehicle when the assault and threat came, castle doctrine now applies and not SYG.

Link? B/c all accounts was that he was outside of this vehicle.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Officially charged with second degree murder. Looks like he has changed his story already.

Attorney for suspect in teen's death says client saw shotgun, shot in self-defense

Update: Dunn has waived his first court appearance in Jacksonville and is officially charged with second-degree murder.

The attorney for Michael David Dunn, charged in the shooting death of Jordan Russell Davis, has a dramatically different story to tell about what happened Friday night at the Gate store on Southside Boulevard.

Robin Lemonidis of Melbourne said Tuesday night that someone in the red sport-utility vehicle that was next to her client’s car pulled a shotgun on him and that he fired in self defense.

“He acted the way any responsible firearms owner would act in a similar situation because a shotgun was aimed at him,” she said.

Jacksonville police said no weapon was found in the car.

“How hard did they look,” Lemonidis said. “Have they done an entire search?”

Lemonidis, who will be in Jacksonville Wednesday when her client makes his first appearance in a Jacksonville courtroom, said Dunn is “devastated that anyone was harmed in this instance.”

 

[They Live]

And just because it may fit your view of what is "racist" to assume that, doesn't mean it isn't correct.

There's a reason cops pull over, stop and frisk, and have a higher level of suspicion toward blacks and black males in particular. It's because criminality is much, much more pervasive in the black community. Sorry, that's just the truth.

Call it profiling, call it unfair, but police who are serious about doing their job effectively are going to pay more attention to the demographic groups that are committing a disproportionately huge amount of the crime. There are ways to avoid this suspicion, as a black male if you dress in a sweater and khakis, don't sag, respond politely to questions, you're sporting nerdy glasses, you're well spoken, etc then in all likelihood you won't face any sort of bother from the police or any glances of suspicion from other people around you.

Is it sad in a way that this is necessary to avoid being looked at with suspicion and bugged by the cops more often? Yes, in a way it is. Yet, the same basic rules apply to other demographic groups too, dress like a thug and act suspicious, get targeted by police. Dress nicely and act civilized? No problem.

The reason people focus on the perceived unfairness of this expectation being applied to blacks is because blacks are meeting it in much, much smaller numbers than whites or asians, etc. People have started to merge the idea of dressing like a thug with sagging pants and a pulled up hoodie, walking around in that gangsta way... and the core concept of merely being black.

The two concepts are quite distinct. It isn't MANDATORY to dress and act like that just because you're black. Every single one of my black friends has opted not to dress or act that way. One of these guys I'm referring to dressed like Carlton from Fresh Prince, always in khakis, sweaters, a nice tweed jacket... brown leather shoes. Another was a huge gamer geek and just sort of dressed like any normal gamer geek would... and the third I'm thinking of still managed to dress like kind of a badass guy but not in a gangsta way, and came across as someone you wouldn't want to mess with, but was VERY well spoken, intelligent, and kind. He definitely didn't project the feeling that he would do anything to you for no reason. This was when these guys weren't in uniform, I knew them during my military service a few years ago.

Anyway...

You can call me racist if you like, but if I hear about a car load of black teenage males who are bumping rap loud, and whom this Dunn guy claims made threats to him, I find that shit IMMENSELY believable and for good reason. I also think it's entirely reasonable to expect an endless stream of lies both about what Dunn did and said, and what they did and said, from the surviving three.

My default expectation of those type of characters is lies, and doing whatever they can to avoid any trouble for themselves. Even if that includes letting what could be an innocent man go to prison for the rest of his life.

The notion that they would open up and admit to flashing a gun or something that looked like one, or making threats on him... is laughable. Again, expect lies from these types of characters. Expect lies and expect criminality and YOU WILL BE RIGHT 95% OF THE TIME.

To the other 5%... sorry. Maybe do more to distinguish yourself from these others by listening to different things, carrying yourself differently, and dressing differently? If it were the 3 black friends of mine I mentioned in that car, or 3 black guys more along their lines than the Trayvon mold, I'd feel entirely differently.

As it stands, I fully expect they'd lie and hide whatever it was Dunn saw. Whether it be real gun, fake gun, or other object. I fully expect this may have required no more than concealing it in one of their jackets... or am I to believe that the police, in the wake of the Trayvon case, did a thorough search of the "victim's" car AND a pat down of the three remaining people, when they hadn't even heard Dunn's claim about a gun being flashed until the next day?

By the time they heard a claim of a weapon in that car, it was long gone if it was ever there. It might've been down a storm drain before they even arrived. Who knows? Don't forget the "stop snitchin'" bullshit.

And then there's the possibility that I am being a complete douche and these kids were nice, innocent kids who just liked rap and were spreading their teenage wings and were the victims of a crazy piece of shit. If evidence comes out to make me think that, I'll gladly admit being wrong and I'll feel bad for my assumptions.

But as it stands now I make no apologies for my assumptions, as I said this kind of dim view proves right the vast majority of the time, is crucial to effective law enforcement and loss prevention in stores, and can save your life. Sorry, that's reality.

BOTTOM LINE: To me it is much more believable that a car full of rap-blasting black teens took great umbrage to being asked to turn it down, and got too carried away with their reaction and trying to intimidate the guy, and look badass to one another... than that a 40 year old dude decided to gun them down for no good reason while his gf was in the gas station and a billion cameras were all around them.

If the police are interested in the TRUTH here, and don't care about what Al Sharpton might say, they should try to search all 4 of their phones, and should have patted them all down on scene, and searched the truck much more thoroughly than I suspect they did.

As I said, you can believe whatever you want. I however will wait until the evidence comes out to judge these kids who could very well be innocent victims. The same goes for the shooter.

I haven't seen a single shred of evidence, outside of the shooters account, that these kids were thugs, or criminals. Absolutely none at all.

That could change in the future, but for now I'll reserve judgement before jumping to conclusions like Spidey and you have.

 

[spidey07]

Link? B/c all accounts was that he was outside of this vehicle.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/Lawyer...s-SUV/-/475880/17566116/-/ku79pw/-/index.html

"Uh, 'Kill that mother (expletive),' 'That mother (expletive) is dead,' 'You dead (expletive),'" Lemonidis said of what Dunn heard from the teens. "And he sees that much of a shotgun coming up over the rim of the SUV, which is up higher than his Jetta, and all he sees are heavily tinted front windows that are up and the back windows that are down, and the car has at least four black men in it, and he doesn't know how old anyone is, and he doesn't know anything, but he knows a shotgun when he sees one because he got his first gun as a gift from his grandparents when he was in third grade."

"All he did was pull up next to this car, or the car pulled up next to him, he's on the passenger side of their car, and he said, he rolled down his window and politely said, 'Would you mind turning that music down?'" Lemonidis said. "And the driver apparently turned it off immediately. Then he hears from the back, 'That (expletive), he can't, that (expletive), we ain't going to tell us where to turn our music down,' and boom, they cranked it back up as loud as it would go. Louder than it had been."

Investigators said Dunn's girlfriend was inside the store when the shooting happened. Dunn was sitting in the driver's seat waiting for her.

 

[Capt Caveman]

http://www.news4jax.com/news/Lawyer...s-SUV/-/475880/17566116/-/ku79pw/-/index.html

So, the witness was the killer? LOL!!!!

 

[spidey07]

So, the witness was the killer? LOL!!!!

Do you agree that if it happened as the victim describes, that he is perfectly in his right to fire in self defense?

How about that castle doctrine laws would apply because he was inside his vehicle?

 

[Jodell88]

So, the witness was the killer? LOL!!!!

Not only that, he had to reach over to his glove compartment get the gun, load it, and then fire at them. He would be dead if the teens really had a shotgun and were going to kill him.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Do you agree that if it happened as the victim describes, that he is perfectly in his right to fire in self defense?

How about that castle doctrine laws would apply because he was inside his vehicle?

There needs to be proof that he was inside his vehicle. From non-killer sources, it's reported he was outside and that the victims were attempting to drive away when he opened fire on them.

 

[spidey07]

Not only that, he had to reach over to his glove compartment get the gun, load it, and then fire at them. He would be dead if the teens really had a shotgun and were going to kill him.

Verbal threats to life are justification to shoot in self defense.

Showing a weapon along with said verbal threats to life are even MORE justification to shoot in self defense.

That the assault and verbal and physical threats to Dunn's life occurred while he was inside his vehicle is just icing for justifiable homocide.

 

[spidey07]

There needs to be proof that he was inside his vehicle. From non-killer sources, it's reported he was outside and that the victims were attempting to drive away when he opened fire on them.

That came from the investigator, he was inside his vehicle.

 

[CitizenKain]

It's so sad that the same people who jumped to conclusions just a few months ago are doing the EXACT same thing.

Like yourself? Because that's what you are doing.

You assume he's innocent and a paragon of virtue because he killed a black kid, who you feel looks "thuggish" and therefore deserves to be shot.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Verbal threats to life are justification to shoot in self defense.

Showing a weapon along with said verbal threats to life are even MORE justification to shoot in self defense.

That the assault and verbal and physical threats to Dunn's life occurred while he was inside his vehicle is just icing for justifiable homocide.

Yet with several witnesses present at the gas station providing testimony, he's been officially charged with second degree murder and had bail denied.