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Teddy Bear teacher going to court today
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AnitaPeterson
Diamond Member
The West should just abandon these hellholes. What was the point in going there to teach, again? It's just throwing away the money... Sub-Saharan Africa is doomed anyway, since there's no end in sight to the AIDS epidemic.
If the populace is so fiercely against everything the West is trying to do for them, let them to their own devices. Genocide? famine? It's Allah's will! Go behead some of your own, instead of asking for the blood of those who foolishly thought they can help you get out of the misery you're wallowing in!
If the populace is so fiercely against everything the West is trying to do for them, let them to their own devices. Genocide? famine? It's Allah's will! Go behead some of your own, instead of asking for the blood of those who foolishly thought they can help you get out of the misery you're wallowing in!
MrMajestyk
Member
It's ironic the teacher is being held in Omdurman prison. The site of the 1898 battle where British/Eygypian forces overwhelmed the Islamist Mahdi army.
Battle of Omdurman
There's a memorial there to the 48 British dead, [the enemy lost over 10,000 dead] which has to be protected by an unclimbable fence. The locals still desercrate the site, pelting it with rocks. So much for 'respect'.
Ironic too for the fact that the Mahdi was the Bin Laden of his day and Sudan was where Bin Laden was based before setting up camp in Afganistan.
Maybe OBL saw Sudan and the Mahdi as the cradle of Islamic fundalmentalism.
Battle of Omdurman
There's a memorial there to the 48 British dead, [the enemy lost over 10,000 dead] which has to be protected by an unclimbable fence. The locals still desercrate the site, pelting it with rocks. So much for 'respect'.
Ironic too for the fact that the Mahdi was the Bin Laden of his day and Sudan was where Bin Laden was based before setting up camp in Afganistan.
Maybe OBL saw Sudan and the Mahdi as the cradle of Islamic fundalmentalism.
yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
As a fellow Canadian, you should check out what the Harper government in preaching on this matter: Ottawa wants to pare down its 'bloated' list of foreign aid recipients .
Jaskalas
Lifer
The story of the teacher could end up as one more tally to the Muslim genocide across the planet if they get their hands on her. It is important, for those calling for her to die today are the same ones who consider themselves at war to kill all of us.
They need to surrender these hostilities or die. We cannot live with those who call for our executions.
AnitaPeterson
Diamond Member
Thanks, yllus, I read that thread now...
Pabster, heh, I know we don't usually agree on some issues... but I never claimed I belong in a particular political camp, or school of thought. I take whatever I see useful in various theories, and discard the rest... then I add my work and life experience to the mix.
Blame it on the fact that I spent 16 years in Eastern Europe, before the fall of the Iron Curtain, but I came to realize that one of the things they use(d) to say over there (something to the extent of "you can't love against someone's will") is very true. And unless you help yourself, you cannot have someone else do the job.
The only way in which these people can get out of their endless cycle of violence and poverty (Jared Diamond's theories come to mind) is by letting them figure it out. They are welcome to come to us for education (is the Fulbright program still running in the U.S.?) and then return to their homelands... slowly, as the number of the reform-minded, well-trained individuals increases, the changes start to take place.
Alternatively, there's the "Deus Ex machina" approach (which carries too much of a moral burden with it, not to mention the other aspects) in which we (the West) go there and change the culture forcibly. I am not drawing any parallels, but you are welcome to see for yourselves how well this has worked so far.
Of course, there's always dangers... while the Fulbright approach is theoretically feasible, sometimes it backfires. Remember that Sayyid Qutb came to the U.S. on a similar program, and was instead even more radicalized... Here, in Canada, I've seen a PhD colleague (also from Egypt!) espouse similar ideas - these people are so convinced of their moral superiority (which comes, in no small amount, from their religious beliefs) that they're actually seeing themselves as better human beings, and that saps their interest in Westernizing...
It is a sad state of affairs... but sometimes I think isolation worked best. When the Sudanese (for instance) were hacking each other to pieces using stone tools and wooden spears, they were limiting the damage to their own... Armed with modern weapons and instant communication technologies, they can suddenly become regional and international threats - although obviously they haven't evolved the necessary moral and social structures that would allow them to keep these tools under control. Give a loaded AK-47 to a 6 year-old child and you are guaranteed a catastrophe. I would use other analogies as well, but you get the point...
Let me now refer to yllus's thread compare international aid to welfare.... I am NOT saying welfare should be dismantled - one of the defining traits of humans is our empathy and the fact that we're social animals... but I can't help wondering about how effective it's being applied.
Here in Ottawa, the capital of a First World country, the downtown core is full of beggars, panhandlers and street people. There are several charities in the area, including a Shepherds of Good Hope complex... which is always full of these people. Strangely enough, most of them are able-bodied and look quite healthy... unlike the truly crippled beggars seen in Eastern Europe. It's no wonder that *all* (and I mean ALL, no exception!) of my East-European friends (people who have immigrated to Canada) are always angry to see these people begging for money, sometimes quite aggressively, instead of working... Does this mean that my East-European friends are conservatives, radicals or authoritarians? or does it mean that they know something about the value of life and work that these (sadly, mostly native Canadians) don't understand?
With the risk of angering liberals and conservatives alike, I have to also bring into discussion the best interests of the human race, and the collective versus the individual. In our current medical wisdom, if a limb is gangrened, it has to be amputated. If we ever evolve our knowledge to the point in which this can be avoided, it stands to reason we will no longer do it, but until that happens some urgent and drastic decisions have to be made. If someone REALLY won't do anything but live on the street and beg for money, stop giving him the money. He has two choices - get some money by making himself useful at something or by stealing (case in which he should REALLY be isolated) or die of starvation.
Again, I know these are terrible choices. One could argue that there's a total lack of absolute moral superiority that would allow *anyone* to make these decisions. Or you could say there's the danger of over-burdening the prison system... I will draw your attention to Vlad IIIrd (the Impaler), ruller of Wallachia... during his reign, the prospect of dying at stake was so horrifying that the thieves had actually stopped stealing, and there were virtually no beggars. Can someone take the terrible responsibility to implement such measures, while realistically serving and advancing higher purposes, like the good of the species? Most likely, no. And if that won't happen, then I guarantee that Mother Nature will do something to re-balance things - either directly (through natural disasters, plagues etc.) or indirectly, by encouraging us - or them - to start a war of extermination.
Pabster, heh, I know we don't usually agree on some issues... but I never claimed I belong in a particular political camp, or school of thought. I take whatever I see useful in various theories, and discard the rest... then I add my work and life experience to the mix.
Blame it on the fact that I spent 16 years in Eastern Europe, before the fall of the Iron Curtain, but I came to realize that one of the things they use(d) to say over there (something to the extent of "you can't love against someone's will") is very true. And unless you help yourself, you cannot have someone else do the job.
The only way in which these people can get out of their endless cycle of violence and poverty (Jared Diamond's theories come to mind) is by letting them figure it out. They are welcome to come to us for education (is the Fulbright program still running in the U.S.?) and then return to their homelands... slowly, as the number of the reform-minded, well-trained individuals increases, the changes start to take place.
Alternatively, there's the "Deus Ex machina" approach (which carries too much of a moral burden with it, not to mention the other aspects) in which we (the West) go there and change the culture forcibly. I am not drawing any parallels, but you are welcome to see for yourselves how well this has worked so far.
Of course, there's always dangers... while the Fulbright approach is theoretically feasible, sometimes it backfires. Remember that Sayyid Qutb came to the U.S. on a similar program, and was instead even more radicalized... Here, in Canada, I've seen a PhD colleague (also from Egypt!) espouse similar ideas - these people are so convinced of their moral superiority (which comes, in no small amount, from their religious beliefs) that they're actually seeing themselves as better human beings, and that saps their interest in Westernizing...
It is a sad state of affairs... but sometimes I think isolation worked best. When the Sudanese (for instance) were hacking each other to pieces using stone tools and wooden spears, they were limiting the damage to their own... Armed with modern weapons and instant communication technologies, they can suddenly become regional and international threats - although obviously they haven't evolved the necessary moral and social structures that would allow them to keep these tools under control. Give a loaded AK-47 to a 6 year-old child and you are guaranteed a catastrophe. I would use other analogies as well, but you get the point...
Let me now refer to yllus's thread compare international aid to welfare.... I am NOT saying welfare should be dismantled - one of the defining traits of humans is our empathy and the fact that we're social animals... but I can't help wondering about how effective it's being applied.
Here in Ottawa, the capital of a First World country, the downtown core is full of beggars, panhandlers and street people. There are several charities in the area, including a Shepherds of Good Hope complex... which is always full of these people. Strangely enough, most of them are able-bodied and look quite healthy... unlike the truly crippled beggars seen in Eastern Europe. It's no wonder that *all* (and I mean ALL, no exception!) of my East-European friends (people who have immigrated to Canada) are always angry to see these people begging for money, sometimes quite aggressively, instead of working... Does this mean that my East-European friends are conservatives, radicals or authoritarians? or does it mean that they know something about the value of life and work that these (sadly, mostly native Canadians) don't understand?
With the risk of angering liberals and conservatives alike, I have to also bring into discussion the best interests of the human race, and the collective versus the individual. In our current medical wisdom, if a limb is gangrened, it has to be amputated. If we ever evolve our knowledge to the point in which this can be avoided, it stands to reason we will no longer do it, but until that happens some urgent and drastic decisions have to be made. If someone REALLY won't do anything but live on the street and beg for money, stop giving him the money. He has two choices - get some money by making himself useful at something or by stealing (case in which he should REALLY be isolated) or die of starvation.
Again, I know these are terrible choices. One could argue that there's a total lack of absolute moral superiority that would allow *anyone* to make these decisions. Or you could say there's the danger of over-burdening the prison system... I will draw your attention to Vlad IIIrd (the Impaler), ruller of Wallachia... during his reign, the prospect of dying at stake was so horrifying that the thieves had actually stopped stealing, and there were virtually no beggars. Can someone take the terrible responsibility to implement such measures, while realistically serving and advancing higher purposes, like the good of the species? Most likely, no. And if that won't happen, then I guarantee that Mother Nature will do something to re-balance things - either directly (through natural disasters, plagues etc.) or indirectly, by encouraging us - or them - to start a war of extermination.
If you want to bring up Michael Fay at least be accurate about what he did:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay
The stuff he did is punishable in any modern society. Yes he was worse off for doing it in Singapore vs the US, but there simply is no comparison between willful acts of vandalism and unintentionally offending an extremist religious group.
Viper GTS
Calls For Death Of Teddy Bear Teacher
KHARTOUM, Sudan (AP) - Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad."
KHARTOUM, Sudan (AP) - Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad."
jonks
Lifer
So noted. I do like this tidbit:
Although the appeal failed, then Singapore President Ong Teng Cheong commuted Fay's caning from six to four strokes as a gesture of respect toward then U.S President Bill Clinton.
Good thing Fay isn't up for a whippin now, eh? "And as a gesture of respect to the firm foreign policy initiatives of US President George Bush, I upwardly revise the caning to 10 strokes!" 🙂
I am not even sure that it is a small percentage. After all, this happened in one city and thousands turned out. What percentage of the population of this particular city turned out to call for her death? I think that is a more relevant statistic. It wouldn't surprise me if 20% or more of all Muslims would support her execution, if not more......
jonks
Lifer
These people chanting were in all likelihood not on the internet reading about this story, and their zealot leaders have very likely not told them the truth. If they were told a bunch of 7 year olds named a teddy bear Mohammad, I seriously doubt 20% of the 1.8 billion muslims in the world would vote for her execution. 18.5% tops.
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