[TechPowerUp article] FreeSync explained in more detail

[3DVagabond]

Look man, TN panels are just fine for gaming. Actually better than IPS panels. And that it what we're talking about here. G-Sync/FreeSync whatever sync is for gamers.
Nuff said.

Plenty of gamers prefer IPS.

 

[Grooveriding]

It is what it is. Believe it or not some prefer a McDonald's burger to filet mignon. Someone's got to eat it I guess.

$500 TN 1080p panel is like paying a $100 for a Big Mac...

 

[Keysplayr]

Plenty of gamers prefer IPS.

for what reason? for looking at the screen from a 180degree angle while playing?
For perfect color reproduction? Slower refresh rates? Ghosting? What?

 

[Keysplayr]

It is what it is. Believe it or not some prefer a McDonald's burger to filet mignon. Someone's got to eat it I guess.

$500 TN 1080p panel is like paying a $100 for a Big Mac...

Really not that big a rift brudda.

how about a T-bone to Filet mignon? I mean, if we wish to be real. Cause at this point, it's just one thought up excuse after another why we all shouldn't adopt G-Sync or FreeSync. Purpose?

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Look man, TN panels are just fine for gaming. Actually better than IPS panels. And that it what we're talking about here. G-Sync/FreeSync whatever sync is for gamers.
Nuff said.

I know they are. I've only ever had TN panels simply because I prefer their speed over IPS.

I'm not as hung up on TN as I am on buying another expensive 1080p monitor. Like I said, 4K will come down in price quickly in my opinion. I think by the time 4K is cheapish we will have 20nm GPU's, more Gsync monitors and reviews, and more news on Freesync.

It's a terrible time to upgrade monitors if you ask me, doubly so for anything 1080p.

 

[Keysplayr]

I know they are. I've only ever had TN panels simply because I prefer their speed over IPS.

I'm not as hung up on TN as I am on buying another expensive 1080p monitor. Like I said, 4K will come down in price quickly in my opinion. I think by the time 4K is cheapish we will have 20nm GPU's, more Gsync monitors and reviews, and more news on Freesync.

It's a terrible time to upgrade monitors if you ask me, doubly so for anything 1080p.

4K is a gimmick. Or not so much a gimmick but a HUGE premium on diminishing returns. There is an improvement over 1080p. Less so over 1440p. But not for the prices they're asking at the moment. When 4K comes down out of the stratosphere and becomes as affordable as todays 1080p monitors, then I'll bite. Until then? Gamers won't notice much difference if at all.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

http://www.macrumors.com/2014/01/07/affordable-4k-displays/

Prices are dropping fast. I'm sure we'll actually see 4K displays around 28-30" in the next year that are less than what you bought a 30" dell for 6 months ago.

Manufacturing of 1080p is shifting purely to 4K panels and it's driving prices down. 1440 and 1600p panels weren't ever mass produced on the levels of 1080p screens and thus always stayed pretty expensive. 4K is coming and that's why I'm holding off on any upgrades until 20nm GPU's are out and 4K is more mainstream.

Go ahead and buy more 1080p stuff if you want. I'm waiting a bit.

 

[Keysplayr]

http://www.macrumors.com/2014/01/07/affordable-4k-displays/

Prices are dropping fast. I'm sure we'll actually see 4K displays around 28-30" in the next year that are less than what you bought a 30" dell for 6 months ago.

Manufacturing of 1080p is shifting purely to 4K panels and it's driving prices down. 1440 and 1600p panels weren't ever mass produced on the levels of 1080p screens and thus always stayed pretty expensive. 4K is coming and that's why I'm holding off on any upgrades until 20nm GPU's are out and 4K is more mainstream.

Go ahead and buy more 1080p stuff if you want. I'm waiting a bit.

"Manufacturing of 1080p is shifting purely to 4K panels"
Wait, where is this documented?

 

[3DVagabond]

for what reason? for looking at the screen from a 180degree angle while playing?
For perfect color reproduction? Slower refresh rates? Ghosting? What?

Better image quality. But you know perfectly well why.

 

[Keysplayr]

Better image quality. But you know perfectly well why.

For gaming? No, I don't know perfectly well why. I can easily tell why a TN panel over IPS for gamers. But I can't reverse it so easily.

And image quality? You mean color reproduction?

 

[3DVagabond]

For gaming? No, I don't know perfectly well why. I can easily tell why a TN panel over IPS for gamers. But I can't reverse it so easily.

Are you really trying to tell me that you don't know the differences between TN and IPS in use? I'm absolutely certain that you do.

It's fine that you prefer high speed panels. It's fine that anyone else does, as well. All I'm saying is that there are plenty of people who don't put the same premium on high speed panels as you do. You said TN panels were better for gaming, period, end of discussion. I simply stated that there are plenty of people who prefer IPS panels for gaming. You seem to think that you are the definitive authority on this, but you aren't.

Here's hoping that FreeSync, or whatever the next VBLANK hack after G-sync is going to be called, works on all types of monitors and is a standard that's adopted to replace current vsync. Then we can't have a single company trying to corner the market on it and tip everyone upside down and shake every penny out of our pockets. The motivation to include it will be on the monitor manufacturers because they want to have the best product available for their customers. Not from a video card manufacturer who wants to lock out competition. Anyone who wants to spend $500 for a 24" monitor to use with their $1000 video card and $150 3D glasses is welcome to. Count me out, though.

Variable VSYNC through VBLANK is not rocket science. AMD already demonstrated this with their little demo at CES. It's certainly not worth the $100's of dollars nVidia wants to charge us for it right now. Especially with how limited it's use is from the monitor side of the equation.

 

[Keysplayr]

Are you really trying to tell me that you don't know the differences between TN and IPS in use? I'm absolutely certain that you do.

It's fine that you prefer high speed panels. It's fine that anyone else does, as well. All I'm saying is that there are plenty of people who don't put the same premium on high speed panels as you do. You said TN panels were better for gaming, period, end of discussion. I simply stated that there are plenty of people who prefer IPS panels for gaming. You seem to think that you are the definitive authority on this, but you aren't.

Here's hoping that FreeSync, or whatever the next VBLANK hack after G-sync is going to be called, works on all types of monitors and is a standard that's adopted to replace current vsync. Then we can't have a single company trying to corner the market on it and tip everyone upside down and shake every penny out of our pockets. The motivation to include it will be on the monitor manufacturers because they want to have the best product available for their customers. Not from a video card manufacturer who wants to lock out competition. Anyone who wants to spend $500 for a 24" monitor to use with their $1000 video card and $150 3D glasses is welcome to. Count me out, though.

Variable VSYNC through VBLANK is not rocket science. AMD already demonstrated this with their little demo at CES. It's certainly not worth the $100's of dollars nVidia wants to charge us for it right now. Especially with how limited it's use is from the monitor side of the equation.

You are counted out.

 

[3DVagabond]

You are counted out.

Nice.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

"Manufacturing of 1080p is shifting purely to 4K panels"
Wait, where is this documented?

It's common sense. You shouldn't take everything so literally.

It's common knowledge that all panels from smartphones to TV's are going up in PPI.

 

[sontin]

Who said there was any problems with VBLANK?. what we need is variable/dynamic/adaptive/whatever VBLANK, which is already present in eDP in the form of seamless dynamic refresh rate switching. Apparently this is coming to DP in version 1.3

Can you show me how "seamless dynamic refresh rate switching" is working? I only find Intel's solution.

eDP does not "use" VBLANK to start PSR as such, eDP uses a self-refresh entry sent using a secondary data packet, which is sent during the VBLANK interval, but again I don't know why people keep talking about PSR unless you know something I don't know, as I can't see how it is relevant to freesync.

If you look up the specification you will find that eDP is using the VBLANK break to send the old image and the SDP command. There is no other way btw. VBLANK is there to send information between two frames. Even for "seamless dynamic refresh rate switching" you'll need VBLANK.

 

[antihelten]

Can you show me how "seamless dynamic refresh rate switching" is working? I only find Intel's solution.

I'm afraid not as I haven't been able to find any good documentation on it, however my rough understanding is that it works by switching between a number of predefined refresh rates (which is obviously not as fine grained as G-Sync). Intel's version allows doing this seamlessly, instead of using a mode change, however I have no idea how they achieve this.

If you look up the specification you will find that eDP is using the VBLANK break to send the old image and the SDP command. There is no other way btw. VBLANK is there to send information between two frames. Even for "seamless dynamic refresh rate switching" you'll need VBLANK.

Actually VBLANK is not there to send information between two frames, VBLANK is an ancient technique used also by CRTs and analog TVs to tell the panel to return from the last line to the first when a frame is done (a VBLANK interval generally lasts about 0.5-1 ms) . with eDP and (and DP) additional data can be send during VBLANK in the form of SDPs.

So yes seamless dynamic refresh rate switching also needs VBLANK, but then again everything needs and uses VBLANK.

 

[Grooveriding]

Really not that big a rift brudda.

how about a T-bone to Filet mignon? I mean, if we wish to be real. Cause at this point, it's just one thought up excuse after another why we all shouldn't adopt G-Sync or FreeSync. Purpose?

So you believe agreeing with the reviews saying its best usage case is between 30-60fps and not liking low quality TN junk or 1080p is looking for excuses - and as usual there must be is hidden 'purpose' to it all...

I can see that you truly believe that you're 'being real' and every opinion counter to that has a hidden 'purpose', but that stop-point issue in the way of comprehension is something that can't be worked out on this forum.

 

[NIGELG]

I detest people who claim to know what a ''real gamer'' is or wants...or who calls 4k a ''gimmick'' but not things like 3D or PhysX....I guess these people have to support whatever their Company pumps out and bash the competition because that's what they are told to do.......

It's one of the reasons I hardly post in this forum any more.

I think higher resolution or 4K displays will become more popular and those who want G Sync on 1080p will also be happy to get it... We get more choices for all PC gamers.

As for ''FreeSync'' I hope it does not take forever like AMD's Physics solutions.....

 

[Jaydip]

I don't think neither free/G sync has any inherent allergy to IPS panels.I belive both of them are waiting for 120Hz IPS panels to be introduced first to showcase it instead of the hacks that now exist.Honestly I myself will never switch to a TN panel anytime soon, I am not a twich gamer and prefer IPS over TN any time even when I am drunk

 

[krumme]

I don't think neither free/G sync has any inherent allergy to IPS panels.I belive both of them are waiting for 120Hz IPS panels to be introduced first to showcase it instead of the hacks that now exist.Honestly I myself will never switch to a TN panel anytime soon, I am not a twich gamer and prfer IPS over TN any time even when I am drunk

haha.
One of my kids got my 19 inch crt years back. Just before he got his lcd 2-3 years ago, there was a situation where the typical "no nothing about tech" women see his crt screen and says; "Wow that is just a very good screen".
Lol.

I agree with this judgement, LCD have just looked like junk before ips came along. Its the only thing making it tolerable. We still have one notebook (an dell xps 17 x702), with an 1080p tn panel. Its okey quality for an TN panel but when you look at it you just think, man this is just bad.

I prefer to game on ips in bf4, because then sense of beeing there is so much better. Its like beeing in the game instead of sitting in front of a screen gaming. There is ghosting, but i prefer the sense of beeing in game to slightly better k/d. And for everytning but gaming its a no brainer.

I really hope we get all the new synch technologies to ips and 4k as soon as possible. Its very simple tech, shouldnt cost more than max 10usd.

 

[Keysplayr]

So you believe agreeing with the reviews saying its best usage case is between 30-60fps and not liking low quality TN junk or 1080p is looking for excuses - and as usual there must be is hidden 'purpose' to it all...

I can see that you truly believe that you're 'being real' and every opinion counter to that has a hidden 'purpose', but that stop-point issue in the way of comprehension is something that can't be worked out on this forum.

Wut?

 

[blackened23]

Yeah, I agree, nobody in the world uses or would upgrade to a 1080p or a TN panel. I guess we need some concrete data points, perhaps sales figures from the largest etailer in the 300+ million strong populated US? I don't know who the top etailer is, i'm coming up empty handed. So I gathered some amazon.com top 100 data, even though amazon.com sales data is completely irrelevant. At least, i've been told that amazon.com is irrelevant here.

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-E...ics/1292115011

For some reason nearly every monitor on there is 1080p or less? And most of them are TN? I don't think the data is correct. I do recall someone telling me that the #1 position on this list sells hundreds of units per minute on amazon. But who knows. They could be lying.

Someone help me out here. This top 100 selling list is updated hourly, can't seem to find the 1440p and 4k panels on there though. If amazon is to be believed, that would indicate that the vast majority of users are upgrading to 1080p or less TN panels. That can't be right. They're all upgrading to 4k. I think their database is erroneous, though. I'm sure some 4k panels should be there in the top 100, but I only found a couple of models in the top 100,000 selling rank range. But, like I said, i'm sure the data is erroneous. Amazon.com claims the data is updated hourly? Who knows if they're being truthful though?

Anyone else have concrete data points? I understand that 4k panels are the new thing now and are selling like hotcakes, but according to the Steam hardware survey - which pinpoints gamers specifically - 1440p monitors are around the 300$ mark now and are IPS. But for some reason, only around .5% of all steam users are using 1440p with greater than 70% using 1080p. Again, while this is from Steam's December 2013 data i'm thinking that Steam has erronous or manipulated data. Not sure what's going on there. Steam has been known to provide false data, at least i've heard that around here. Not quite sure.

I do think freesync was demo'ed on a 1366*768 panel. I'm not sure what the sales data is on 1366*768 panels, i'm coming up short on finding concrete data points on this resolution. How well does 1366*768 panels sell? Anyone? Just curious. I don't think AMD would target that resolution for free-sync whenever it's released in 2015, though, would they?

 

[Grooveriding]

Erroneous argument. We can all agree the majority of people with a home desktop are running a 1080p screen, and of that majority, most of those screens are TN junk piles. We could also go to Steam and see that most people are running 1080p via their hardware survey as well.

Then you could take a look on Steam at what class of video card the majority of people are running as well and remind yourself the majority doesn't even know or care about the latest graphics tech or about gsync/freesync/whatever sync. Something that will make them have to get rid of their currently functional 1080p screen and buy another one, that also has an additional $200 premium for something they don't even know about or understand ? Unless and until their monitor dies most won't even consider buying a new one.

This is a niche technology targeting a niche. The problem on tech forums is the assumption that everyone who games knows about the latest and greatest and is running a R9 290X / 780ti on a top-tier Intel platform. Here on these forums you might be preaching to the choir, but the majority isn't here or cares to be. It's just not the case, those users are the minority. Until something of this sort comes rolled into every monitor as standard with no premium attached its penetration will remain amongst enthusiast PC users and gamers.

This is why you see reviewers and forum goer's opinion's of gsync often decrying the lack of announced or available IPS/IGZO screens supporting it, because they're enthusiasts and represent the niche that are even aware or interested in this technology as yet. The same niche that often understands the superiority and high quality of IPS and similar panel technologies over TN. What model of monitor are you running, dude ? Same one I am right ? Why ?

Pointing out 1080p as the most common resolution on Steam or most commonly sold screen size on Amazon does nothing to support an argument that 1080p TN makes the most sense for something like gsync. You're talking about the majority of desktop users, in the case of Amazon, many of those sales probably are not even for a gaming desktop...

I should add that the TN vs IPS argument was not the focal point. It's that gsync has been reviewed as ideal in its use between 30-60fps and is where I'm interested in using. I don't see 1080p as a resolution where you have to worry about being between 30-60fps. If your plan is to spend $500 on your gsync monitor and $200-$300 on your GPU, why spend $500 for gsync to make 30-60fps more fluid when you can spend $300 for the monitor and $400-$500 on the GPU and crush 1080p. It just doesn't make sense for such a low resolution to invest that additional $200 for gsync into what is otherwise a low-end TN monitor.

4K is where it will be put to best effect and I agree the 1440p Asus screen with it is a good fit as well, just not for me, because $800 for a TN monitor is lunacy in my book... But resolution-wise it makes sense.

 

[blackened23]

Huh. I was just told that 4k is ubiquitous or will soon be, since 4k is selling like hotcakes.

This is niche technology targeting a niche.

I agree. That's why nvidia should immediately target the monitors that are clearly selling the most with g-sync - 4k panels. 4k panels are selling, 1080p isn't, so we know what nvidia has to do; 1080p isn't selling and targetting 1080p TN panels from the outset is clearly the wrong move.

I should add, that nvidia had monitor partners on hand at CES with monitors ranging from 1440p to 4k resolutions at their booth. They had a working g-sync machine with a 4k panel. Since 4k panels are selling more than any other resolution to gamers, this is nothing but a good thing. Nvidia had monitors from Ben-Q, Asus, Phillips, Viewsonic, and a couple of others. All of these manufacturers except BenQ plan on making 4k panels. And since some in this thread indicate that 4k is selling like hotcakes, I guess that's a good thing? I don't know?

And then Asus intro'ed a 120hz 1440p g-sync panel as well. That is being released Q1 this year? I think? Who knows what the implication is there. I thought nvidia was doing g-sync on TN 1080p panels and that alone. At least that's what some in this thread have told me. I guess that wasn't correct. ::shrug::

 

[Keysplayr]

I detest people who claim to know what a ''real gamer'' is or wants...or who calls 4k a ''gimmick'' but not things like 3D or PhysX....I guess these people have to support whatever their Company pumps out and bash the competition because that's what they are told to do.......

It's one of the reasons I hardly post in this forum any more.

I think higher resolution or 4K displays will become more popular and those who want G Sync on 1080p will also be happy to get it... We get more choices for all PC gamers.

As for ''FreeSync'' I hope it does not take forever like AMD's Physics solutions.....

Who is doing that Nigel?