[TECH Report] As the second turns: the web digests our game testing methods

[3DVagabond]

Does anyone at this point? Both "houses" are plagued by it to various degrees.

Also, why harp on this point?

Since he can't refute what I posted about apoppin he needs to make this about me.

 

[Homeles]

Who do we blind test? Average Joe? Random enthusiasts? The eagle-eyed guys that claim they can see it?

Since he can't refute what I posted about apoppin he needs to make this about me.

I know you guys have a history, but it doesn't look like he's making it about you. He asked the same questions to another guy.

 

[Rvenger]

ABT who? Never heard of them until the silly blowout here last year and I will look elsewhere for an honest review. I never even see ABT articles popping up in search engines.

 

[3DVagabond]

Who do we blind test? Average Joe? Random enthusiasts? The eagle-eyed guys that claim they can see it?

I know you guys have a history, but it doesn't look like he's making it about you. He asked the same questions to another guy.

Correct. I didn't mean me personally. The reason is the same in both instances. Defend apoppin by attacking the poster.

As far as who to test, anyone with 20/20 vision and is capable of playing the game "competently".

 

[Lonbjerg]

What does my comment about ABT have to do with the existence of microstutter? Let me clarify my statement. apoppin has an agenda. Therefor, nothing he says can be relied upon.

As far as your deflection about "microstutter".

1, I'd like to see blind testing to see at what point the measured frame latencies are visible in real world use.
Reason? We've seen larger amounts of latency measured with a 6970, 560ti, and 470 with never a report from testers or owners that they have visible stuttering issues. These results weren't just in a couple of titles either. They were pretty consistent across the titles tested.

2, I'd like to see this testing done in a larger selection of games to see how wide spread the latency issue is.
Reason? They used different games in different reviews and had different results.

Are there measurable differences in latency between the cards tested in the games tested? Yes. I'm not going to take that limited information and apply a blanket statement from it. No.

So you deny microsttuer...gotcha.

Post bookmarked for later reference.

 

[3DVagabond]

So you deny microsttuer...gotcha.

Post bookmarked for later reference.

You can do what you like. LOL

 

[MrK6]

I can ask you the same thing:

Was that a irrelevant stab at ABT...or a denial of microstutter?

I have a bridge to sell you, it's super cheap. Guaranteed not to microstutter as well.

 

[lavaheadache]

So you deny microsttuer...gotcha.

Post bookmarked for later reference.

How did you come to that conclusion after he said this?

"Are there measurable differences in latency between the cards tested in the games tested? Yes. I'm not going to take that limited information and apply a blanket statement from it. No."


Maybe you were ZZzzz.

 

[Lonbjerg]

So even when AMD says there IS a problem...and they ARE adressing the PROBLEM...some people here are still in denial.

FUNNY!!!

So I guess we can make a list of people not to listen too...as they deny facts LOL

 

[3DVagabond]

So even when AMD says there IS a problem...and they ARE adressing the PROBLEM...some people here are still in denial.

FUNNY!!!

So I guess we can make a list of people not to listen too...as they deny facts LOL

The problem is you take measured results in a limited number of games and want to apply those results in a general manner. TR's prior tests on different games didn't show any excessive latency with the 7950 vs. the 660ti. Also you use the term microstutter, which is a term that has only been associated prior to this with AFR. Using that term some have taken [H]'s actual visible observations with crossfire and used them interchangeably with TR's single card latency results claiming it has been visually verified. It's not the same thing. You saying, "do you deny microstutter", is just too general of a statement in the context of this thread.

FWIW, I really doubt too many people here care about yours and apoppins lists of people. Knock yourself out.

 

[Lonbjerg]

The problem is you take measured results in a limited number of games and want to apply those results in a general manner. TR's prior tests on different games didn't show any excessive latency with the 7950 vs. the 660ti. Also you use the term microstutter, which is a term that has only been associated prior to this with AFR. Using that term some have taken [H]'s actual visible observations with crossfire and used them interchangeably with TR's single card latency results claiming it has been visually verified. It's not the same thing. You saying, "do you deny microstutter", is just too general of a statement in the context of this thread.

FWIW, I really doubt too many people here care about yours and apoppins lists of people. Knock yourself out.

I cannot take a person seriusly that denies facts:

Dave Bauman, AMD

"Additionally, when we switched from the old VLIW architecture to the GCN core there was a significant updates to all parts of the driver was needed – although not really spoken about the entire memory management on GCN is different to prior GPU's and the initial software management for that was primarily driven by schedule and in the meantime we've been rewriting it again and we have discovered that the new version has also improved frame latency in a number of cases so we are accelerating the QA and implementation of that."

You wake me up when you stop denying facts...untill then...I'd rather read Fud, Char-lie..or even creationists...than listen to your trying to deny facts.


Can you go lower?

 

[3DVagabond]

I cannot take a person seriusly that denies facts:

Dave Bauman, AMD



You wake me up when you stop denying facts...untill then...I'd rather read Fud, Char-lie..or even creationists...than listen to your trying to deny facts.


Can you go lower?

Nice of you to actually quote Baumann. Do you honestly not see where you are taking his statement, "we have discovered that the new version has also improved frame latency in a number of cases" and turning it into something more than what he said? Microstutter is nowhere to be found in that statement. Frame latency is mentioned. Which is exactly what I referred to. You are changing that to microstutter, which is why I clarified my response. Your question was leading and couldn't be answered yes or no.

 

[Will Robinson]

So you deny microsttuer...gotcha.

Post bookmarked for later reference.

Well most people here can't deny some microstutter,those damn 5 series Fermi cards were pretty bad for it...we just put up with it and don't make a fuss.
Let us know if you'd like to continue your campaign against NVDA for allowing it.:hmm:

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Lonbjerg I want to ask you a question so I can better understand your state of mind.

If a tree falls in the forest with no observers/listeners does it make any sound?

I think you may be slightly out of touch with reality.

 

[Lepton87]

Baumann also stated that he played BL2 on 7870 and 7970 and could not see that latency issue, so he admitted that there is a latency problem but he personally can't see it during game-play. This issue is probably blown out of proportion, Fermi cards had even worse frame latency then GCN and did anyone complain? In that respect it was way worse then Cayman yet I can't remember people saying that 6970 delivers better gaming experience than GTX580.

 

[Wall Street]

Baumann also stated that he played BL2 on 7870 and 7970 and could not see that latency issue, so he admitted that there is a latency problem but he personally can't see it during game-play. This issue is probably blown out of proportion, Fermi cards had even worse frame latency then GCN and did anyone complain? In that respect it was way worse then Cayman yet I can't remember people saying that 6970 delivers better gaming experience than GTX580.

I think that this is not a big of a deal as other performance issues, for example older hardware that stutters on all frames instead of just periodic stutters. However, since most games are console ports, and all of these 28 nm GPUs are so incredibly fast, the stuttering is the next thing that needs to improve.

Now that the other issues have largely been addressed and many games can be played at 1080p with high shader settings, MSAA and AF - I think that stuttering is the next logical issue to address. Up until a few years ago, it you moved the sliders "all the way to the right" even high end cards would fall to sub 30 FPS average. Now that cards are getting above 60 FPS average with the sliders "all the way to the right" preventing stutters below 30 FPS matter much more than getting the average even higher over 70-80 FPS.

 

[DiogoDX]

Baumann also stated that he played BL2 on 7870 and 7970 and could not see that latency issue, so he admitted that there is a latency problem but he personally can't see it during game-play. This issue is probably blown out of proportion, Fermi cards had even worse frame latency then GCN and did anyone complain? In that respect it was way worse then Cayman yet I can't remember people saying that 6970 delivers better gaming experience than GTX580.

This is just the Nvidia marketing in action. Every aspect that Nvidia cards are superior than AMD is the most important aspect to buy a GPU. And every generation this most important features changes.

 

[Jaydip]

So even after AMD admitted they are working on to improve their drivers to reduce frame latency people are denying it.Stupidity at its best.I like NV cards and if someone reported this issue I would be pretty pissed off unless NV fixed it despite I see them or not.

 

[3DVagabond]

So even after AMD admitted they are working on to improve their drivers to reduce frame latency people are denying it.Stupidity at its best.I like NV cards and if someone reported this issue I would be pretty pissed off unless NV fixed it despite I see them or not.

Who is denying it?

 

[AnandThenMan]

I like NV cards and if someone reported this issue I would be pretty pissed off unless NV fixed it despite I see them or not.

Did Nvidia ever fix the major stuttering issues on the 5 series cards? Didn't you own one?

 

[VulgarDisplay]

So even after AMD admitted they are working on to improve their drivers to reduce frame latency people are denying it.Stupidity at its best.I like NV cards and if someone reported this issue I would be pretty pissed off unless NV fixed it despite I see them or not.

No one is denying that a computer can output a graph that sees odd frame latencies.

 

[Whitestar127]

Who is denying it?

Yeah, I don't get it. I haven't seen a single person here disputing the existence of it, just the degree/amount of it.

 

[BrightCandle]

Admittedly ABT is far from mainstream but seeing as how few sites are bothering to even look at the games they benchmark (cough anandtech cough) I'll take data from where ever it comes. He has already shown similar findings to techreport and these results are consistent with his prior ones so I am fairly confident they are a truthful display. I highly doubt they are fabricated. We have had members here confirm problems to a greater or lesser extent to TechReport and his are well within the normal boundaries.

The extent of the stutter does seem to be quite wide, on quite a lot of games. Its not isolated to a select few. AMD's 13.2 driver is only going to fix the ones TR looked at recently with the new driver, so the wider set of games will still have a problem.

I am done with my 7970's, they haven't worked right for a year. I am going to stick them on sale.

 

[Rikard]

The extent of the stutter does seem to be quite wide, on quite a lot of games. Its not isolated to a select few.

It is in my case. One game to be specific, Hitman:Absolution.

AMD's 13.2 driver is only going to fix the ones TR looked at recently with the new driver, so the wider set of games will still have a problem.

You do not know that. We have an unofficial early beta, that is all. Who knows what the full 13.2 driver will contain?

 

[f1sherman]

No one is denying that a computer can output a graph that sees odd frame latencies.

You are saying the same thing AMD has been saying ever since Intel slaughtered them.

Hey folks, don't look at meaningless benchmarks.
Look at those average gamers? Lets blind test them, and use their observations instead of numbers.

http://amdfx.blogspot.com/2012/04/mobile-trinity-blind-test-amd-clear.html
http://legitreviews.com/article/1838/1/

Frankly I think that's a bunch of stuff, and PR at it's worst - doing damage control insteaf of fixing things.
Because numbers are meaningless only if you pull them out of your ass. Which is hardly the case here.

Frame times coupled with frame variations is what defines your gameplay experience.
In infinitely more objective way, than observations(or lack of) done by Joe, Marry and d3L74#w4rri0R.
And arguably in a much more complete way than FPS alone.

Average FPS(average latency) numbers, done by "computer output graph" has been fine for ages.
So why all of sudden these new numbers: FPS, FPS variations, latency spikes(>50ms) are somehow less worthy, more suspicious, and should be confirmed by "blind testers"?

You never asked for FPS blind test confirmations, or have you?